well i'm sure 6 that's true if you looked at slavery. fears of a health care collapse hospital workers in france protested windowing resources in the fight against cope with 19. 6 years after the mh 17 plane tragedy russia steps away from talks with the netherlands and australia claiming neither wants to establish the fact. decades old conflict bursts back into life in the. first hand the damage of war between armenia and azerbaijan since hostilities resumed in late september. those are the headlines for this hour make sure to follow our social media for your latest news updates thanks for watching and we

hope to see you again soon. when disaster strikes strong leadership to rebalance. and control are our leaders and how do they become that last one of the world's most prolific thinkers on the psychology of leadership. manfredi gets to free is a professor of leadership development organizational changes said in seattle business school it's really great to have you with us wow what amazing times to talk about leaderships but i'm going to start actually from a little behind so we like to think of idea leaders as being modest little selfless

accommodating emotionally intelligent compassionate instead. in reality though ask just about anyone about their boss from hell right and the story goes that you will hear plenty about self centeredness that their rough their insensitive as leaders. is it realistic to think that this gap between the ideal and the real realistic can be actually bridged i hope so otherwise not why they do what they do or something host martin i mean they may you're right. you know you don't need to be of narcissist but unfortunately too many leaders are really are from the bomb and look for the group it's a charity to. the nice terms you should but you made it a sense of humanity and to see older stage no longer they've been there and make it

way sorry that's so it is and that's the specter we live actually it's very interesting times across the pond then me because it focuses in a way it's the largest social experiment ever done. no good. now that number sanaa issue condition one is that people become more reflective and say what kind of role do we need i mean at the moment. you know i look at the world and i didn't wonder many years ago before you were born and i have at this about science talked about how can a person in the erse so now people are more concerned of course about global warming and things like that there was also a movie rich in the sixty's it's also of course in the time of the cold war it was . dr strangelove people enough to sort its and i want to move about the danger of nuclear all across so it's still there actually of in sync about companies like pakistan and north korea you don't get the warm feeling well so having their finger

on the nuclear button then of course you have the terrorism because all over the place it is still there and there you have faults you know also in the case i know here quite well because it's been so many times there is income inequality i mean you look at america it's enormous fortune in europe right in the it's much less and of course countries like poland and sweden it's much more equal but when you have large income inequalities it's an invitation for social disaster. and they have to pull them in and the way different countries have their arteries upon them in bad examples of course being countries like america. and also a country like india you know terrible way of dealing is it rich now that mescaline it is supposed to be people who don't from their mosque or you know demand growth from caracas totally that it was and how it's it's really a perfect storm and and well of course if you meet our leaders socially as you

mentioned. you know who i have compassion and have some empathy instead of we have yes be no days of culture that is so people are big leaders. who. wish to believe. but let's be a little more precise because i would like to talk to you during this interview about leadership and different kinds of walks of lives but now we've touched upon world leaders right the political leaders and you're saying this is the perfect storm and this perfect storm actually brings to the surface all the downfalls of the systems of the people who are actually having their countries masks are off i mean never has there been a time where everything has been so clear when they say the king is in a cave this is the time about the saying so. it seems like looking over.

the world landscape of political leadership landscape the. better we're going and that's my next question that's my next question but if we talk about the kings that are naked right. and that has become obvious during the. it has a lot of people thinking that maybe they have the political elite that is heading the world great now lives in the old paradigm that doesn't correspond to the new problems that the world is facing and i'm not really only talking about the condemning the pandemic will go away in a year and a half hopefully there will be a look see and i mean every 100 years there is a condemning but i'm talking about the problems that it has brought to surface and the inability of the current political elite to deal with these new problems that just don't correspond that old political paradigm what kind of leaders do we need

right now considering that we know more precisely what are the problems the world is facing now. now you know certain things are not new and i think one of the the infineon there. the problem we always have is the greek factor nor the element of greed has been there so are the ages in that still there. and that's i think a fairly not so silent motivator the people behave the way they do i mean it's really take the united states as an example even in there if you know if their interest communities are the most bursted they have the best education because obviously education is a way or looking so division believed to obama's miracles they still milked a vote for tong many of the rotor trump because of. it is f. and tasted done financially because of fairy shorts short wave or

a short rate of looking i've been fair it's very sad to hear there is no short term . surge in the entertainment country which is divided and people living safe communities guarded by whatever powers protect the goons who protect them which is a terrible ray of living his example. the great effect it has always been there and it is unfortunately has been has come very much to the fore coming back to your question and your early on to the question yourself and what you need is people who are current today ages and are dealing to face reality as all the problems by the way that we live now in an age or for the social media has no meaning or its effect and you know it and thus is no stranger to that by the way in the distribution effect or it's and what about the world has become mosty in that and it's there quite unfortunate that you start to get from she obviously a lot of people that i've spoken to said you know when things like condemn except

that right where when there's so much uncertainty and no one has the answers you can be the most experienced leader and you can be very smart. and you can be married talented but ls you have emotional intelligence and that accomplices a lot of other traits within itself for instance empathy and out of today there's no way you can lead a nation out of crisis like program like would you agree with us would you agree that something like emotional intelligence is a must have for a good leader during the times of crisis like this the 1st thing you have to know what are your strengths and weaknesses you can do it all leadership is really a team sport and fortunate tom to give that example because i like the example and so i'm also number psychoanalyst tomorrow the life of 2 heads are mentioned professor and psychoanalyst he is the example of a school to mimic the narcissist in a malignant narcissist is basically i've written quite a bit about to mention the process of so you know i can believe in the people

because sicko machine really is as so he basically has made it seems is he is so insecure or that it's all about him it would never be about it's always about him something about him and the 2nd seeing his face indicative to anybody who's not raise him is against him or do anything to crush the prince yes to with it is of course going to be interesting because of this election because he cannot lose his mind so he has to find all different ways to find excuses not to so that's but coming back to executives you know the 1st thing i tried to do in my going back to your question about emotional intelligence is the question of no guy self. and to understand their strengths and weaknesses so many executives don't know him self they don't know right to do more to do the sentencing is that very often and bossy is a very good example actually given the power of this. is kind of remarkable if you think of our community and seems like that's in the past but there's an enormous amount of or be used to authority so or this great tendency for other greek. breeze

people become too full of themselves and nobody can push them back because. case of course also on top. so death and and that is also door to self destruction so it was my surprise that now people many people have a tendency to self-destruct in a leadership position unless you have a treat if you take a corporate culture where people have a healthy disrespect for their boss but it's not so easy and particularly in the last year i've done quite some work there is organizations and organ but our this and the 2nd sing would always surprises me or the source of that many executives don't get the best out of their people it's really again they have no and then there's who is emotion tell it is and what i found very noticeable after the 1st week in my program it was 4 weeks over a year and the 1st thing you don't know to get people they never had a serious conversation is that they have never listened to them so that's what they do is start to have some conversation is that the other thing has to do is as i

said the other ship is a team sport and since you can do everything you should focus on the soon shooter and you should find people who can compensate for listening to you not good at it and so i was they give me a somewhat neurotic and i make something out of the short time and just be in my work at n.c.r. i've been trying to buy them yet and coach so are 2 really and it's always surprises me when you look at exec a leadership in organizations that people spend millions bence of millions of dollars or whatever yours whatever id systems things like that but they are able to aligned. and that cost more money because you get terrified to better me as all this grand schemes people are multiplying matter that take a short break right now where we're back we'll continue talking to a man fred katz to freres unless a political thinker is on the psychology of leadership talking about what kind of leaders as the world that needs today stay with us. or.

are. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe from. isolation full community. are you going the right way or are you being led to. direct. what is true what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us

in the depths. in the shallowness. really. need much needed help with. just that hamas. is an awful lot in common i'm old but i'm also the most amazing knows i've been a kid who says he plays not emotional when i meet. his compass he most people almost come piano screaming nobody goes from him didn't you notice his conclusion he has put oh you little to i called. him a time and i'm going to hit a thief honest enough to see. you i don't know you kind of the most beautiful. little kid. until they. come

to your list. so you know men to get. and we're back with manfred katz to for a year as a lisick thinker on the psychology of leadership manfred correct me if i'm wrong but what i see the real life is that the vast majority of leaders whether it's c.e.o.'s of corporations whether it's hads of states whether it's you know just the heads of little small companies doesn't matter they have the traits. that good guys don't have you know because good guys always finish last i mean we talk about trumping. narcissism but

a lot of people who actually get to power are of power hungry are narcissistic are pushy they do lakes sort of go over other people's heads to get where they want and that's why their leaders and other good guys with compassion and emotional intelligence always stay behind i want peace in the article about we should have leaders for life and then you know road which was a very cynical article because leaders for life are not it doesn't make make for stability of the country and that's and also in the tread organization so. in the short term those people might come up but i think one should do everything to have some checks and balances to prevent those people to come to the fore destination for example i've developed many kinds of c 60 questionnaires that you basically tease out the narcissus i mean the dr lloyd the commerce of nurses is part of the deal better rate or is the question of access always you need to be narcissistic

was a need for self as the excess that people can push back then you can tell a person you from. shit you know that kind of saying you know stop it this doesn't go anywhere but i think when you have too much obedience to authority people are in luck to you and many of the leaders who talk about me from the echo chamber i mean they know what they think they want the right want are the interest of other people think that's i think important to me you learn you don't learn by yes tell yourself the same saying so this day in age you can have some all to craft to take adventurous you can also say maybe we should have somewhat of a different view of a you have to be somewhat result of hope and that's partially was really younger generation i mean i i i'm not going to are in sync about global warming i'm too old to really come here not too old and i don't feel at all but i mean i'm not i don't know going to necessarily affect be affected so much by that but then i think about my children and grandchildren they are and so you can see that you know that the

younger generation may be the company isn't it and is actually the invention of the jungle generation because the younger generation was so affected my age and more that i'm just gets affected by he had maybe that's what it is to find and get all those people out of the way who have certain ways of looking at sinks but let's say you leave a couple of centuries ago and you tater i don't know it's a prince of orange and he has led the revolt yet now. what do you have to change one of the essential leadership qualities you will try to grow in him. no i guess what i'm saying we talk about certain qualities one is to have certain amount of self-confidence i had one executive who was who runs a large media company who told me thank you thank you for being in the seminar because i had the courage that she doesn't have before it was a very good person to make some tough decisions non-singing i'm not going to fight anybody that was actually it's a tough decision or of course record is much easier to in bring in ben if you fight

i said he said i'm not going to fight anybody and i'm going to really hope to hospitals also where have i i had i take a salary cuts there's the whole top executives at say that say that's the courage to have courage to do certain saying and to stand up and say this is about it and you know be it everybody who's crazy also feel awful but you can decide things are courage muscle to say this this cannot stand now so you have self-confidence i mean when you look at the person is basically a child who never grew up and so insecure or needs all the time be enforcement so to be to be more aware what you can do and can do coming back to strength and weaknesses it also going back to your comments about the care that you have a sense of compassion now you have to do it it was in moderation because if you had to do and bess if you don't bet anymore everything is you can that he or she can understand everything but that might be paralyzed what about cold blooded ness is

something a good leader should also balancing himself. now that has to do with the balance of compassion. your menu i mean i'll go away what i mean because when you see big leaders they need to take big decisions and even though it's for the good of the people in the long run it doesn't necessarily come across that way to the people right then and there and people sometimes have to suffer for big reforms for a certain period of time 5 years 10 years that's a big chunk of time for one person's life so these people are faced with assad to be compassionate no go with the reforms and you know let the people be happy now or be cold blooded go along with the reform whether it's a big c.e.o. of a company or president of a country but in the longer on even though people are unhappy now with the reforms it will be better off for the country or for the company i see it not as. a blogger needs to see this cribbing create some tension though you have to make difficult

decision because they the right decision as far as you can see and that's it isn't supposed to be our elected but when you elect people who just cater to division to believe like you see in brazil they see mean there is this kind of discount of person or i mean they're coming back to america they don't have the competence to make those decisions if they really realized. they would say they are not stupid people don't realize that they would surround himself with people who would advise they look at a populist like come back to america is a tribute example of what we're creating you was nectar and he also knew very he was out of his debts so he made you know he had pretty decent advice that's not the case when you look at the present situation american so bloodedness is the ability i same to take some distance and be able to explain what you're saying just in the better investment nation and there was

a man called out in the hour who was the german. you're there in germany comes later he said a thick skin is a gift of growth unfortunately as only that at times you have need to have a 6 again because you can never please everybody if you want to please everybody you sell ice cream that's my advice is there like a natural the wide and people between leaders and followers and some people are destined to lead and others follow or anyone really can grow a leader in himself if he wants to that's a very interesting question and it's not easy to answer because some people feel much better i mean in case of crisis we have a tendency to go back to what's called the dependency assumption be looking for someone who can lead us you know those as always already from politics times you know you talk about are you from lucian bute for somebody. that's in general tend to say we also have this fight flight was the same time and some people depending

on their background to mean i mean our society around was you look at some developmental now at the well actually for you to use to. talk about mine a gold in the sea if you as a man this and many of the if if if you had been the favorite ocean mother you can't lose that's what he said so you are you get a lot of self you have this freedom with for concrete can do anything and actually conserve similarly you look at margaret thatcher at the time she was she was interestingly your editor autobiography there is no mother there. there's only a father which was interest thing because in the in this male chauvinist it will be lived in her father to have a son so does the book of us bought us a tomboy so you have different but of course the best scenario i think is that it's not just honey i'm home you know the kinds of men coming home what you have to honey's coming home so you have role models in the family and those make it different if you have a fait accompli as a woman if you have a competent mother it's really sets of sets of the role model theory depends how

what kind of elation ship develops in the family it's a little bit like also. you know they're coming back to security do you know the parable of the hatch wrong not that's what schopenhauer imagine your head short is caught in there with her and you want to get warmer so some of the head shorts and you try to get closer while that's a hedge or how close can you get before used bad things happen to you as distinct so you have different kinds of heads will have to find proper distance so according to you come back to child development darcy started usually one is secure attachment that you feel comfortable with certain distance some people don't want to get close they're always avoidant because everything ends badly and they have to people are very needy so coming back to your question if people are fed is. probably the better from a verse you know anxious intention they don't look for someone so interesting to me

because this had to a pair of metaphor sets the stage of couple elation ships and the relationships you have in organizations so i knew it so if you are for example very avoidant and your partner is faint needy it's bad news you know you've done parties on and off the only other ones take this going and. come of coming back to where you can about leadership certainly given your particular the attention be a few have fairly early in life which has to do is what kind of care you have some people will be much better for various other people who are more secure in their skin build many much better than the others do you think. the demands of what a good leader are traits of a good leader should be changed according to the times will even or a good leader is a good leader anywhere any time now i mean of course the difference things we have now believe in information society or you need such different skills but i mean i

wrote once not skills traits now i mean coming back to the press as a christian it should be honest before. i was and some journalist before me said you know the leadership skills of a work something great genghis khan and. shaka zulu. and you know some face simile you need know now to f.l. this a flippant remark to a journalist so i may yet i wrote a book on other some of the day i wrote a book of shockers and it is the most leader off southern f. southern africa message and his comment the problem is that because of there's not much of it in the budget is going to the mountain we had in society but i think many of the qualities are still the same mitch has to do no really look at. all exxon the great nor news of symbolism in his particular way of operating was vacant and also the way before him bethell now he would be informed by the way

which stupid is sure to lead off the talks because you can be killed and you will see shortly it was no stranger to many rooms also before the bethel talking to people singling people out and seeing who act that the people felt special to death i mean they were easy usually create a community of people as still the case like you have any to fish the famous bottle of ashen coeur there's the famous speech there and he and he singles are all this media people so if he committed it will fight till he ends it will do anything if there is someone that you think is a great model of a great leader that corresponds today's reality in today's time. who would it be can you name a president or a c.e.o. of accompli that you think fits perfectly the times and challenges of today i felt that mrs medical has done a pretty good job. i think she has done a very good job is not an easy country to manage and she has been she made some

mistakes reach share in your underestimate for example the influx of immigrants and the impact it has generated both she has been pretty nice to have you had a woman a storm really as you look at some of the women mean. there was an issue get some to scandinavian countries men. are more more reluctant at the moment so that optimistic note that era of the women leaders that is actually coming. i would like to say thank you manfred it's been really a treat talking to you and i hope we get to do this again and maybe i can actually connect with you when i'm in paris and we can talk more about this because. this is a really interesting topic that has come more than ever in focus right now so thanks a lot for your tips and for your thoughts and insights. since you forever thank you

. have you ever played high and low poker that's when the low hand and the high hand when so we've got a situation in the global economy right now where in the currency markets various countries are trying to win with the worst possible hand let's see how this works out. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest in the world of politics sports

business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. the us doesn't sell just long but the get a list of all the gold that's. the only one making i wonder why it's why do you know. all of the. really hope movie but they were here also in france so that the us are still sold but the so beautiful thing to do something to see. this child.