hello welcome to sophie co visionaries me sophie shevardnadze when disaster strikes strong leadership is needed to rebalance class disorientation and regain control who are our leaders and how do they become that last one of the world's most prolific thinkers on the psychology of leadership man fred katz to freeze. manfredi gets to free is professor of leadership development organizational changes said in seattle business school it's really great to have you with us wow what an amazing time to talk about later shoes but i'm going to start actually from a little behind so we like to think of idea leaders as being modest little selfless accommodating emotionally intelligent compassionate instead. you know so in reality though it's just about anyone about their boss from hell and the story goes that you will hear plenty about self centeredness that they're rough they're insensitive

as leaders. is it realistic to think that this gap between the ideal and the real realistic can be actually bridged i hope so otherwise why they do what they do or do something remember you are right. you know you don't need to be creative narcissist well unfortunately too many leaders are really are from the. group it's very to. their nice terms you support your millage a sense of humanity and to see older stage no longer they've been there. so it is. actually a very interesting times to the me because it focuses in a way it's the largest social experiment ever done and i have no. now that number sanaa issue condition one is that people become more reflective and say what

kind of role do we need i mean at the moment. you know i look at the world and i didn't wonder many years ago before you were born and i have at this about science it's talked about how can a person in the erse so now people are more concerned of course about global warming and things like that there was also a movie that was in the sixty's it's also of course in the times of cold war it was . dr strangelove you probably never sort it's an i want to move to danger of nuclear all across so it's still there actually every single bar companies like pakistan and north korea you don't get the warm feeling was having their finger on the nuclear button then of course you have the terrorism because all over the place it is still there and they you have false you know also in the case i know here quite well because it's been so many times there is income inequality i mean you look at america it's enormous fortune you're right in the it's much less and of

course countries like poland and sweden it's much more equal but when you have large income inequalities it's an invitation for social disaster. and they have to pull that me and the way different countries have their arteries upon them in bad examples of course being countries like america. and also a country like india you know terrible way of dealing is it rich now that mescaline it is supposed to be people who don't from moscow or you know demand growth from caracas totally ridiculous and how it's it's really a perfect storm and and well of course what you need are leaders social issue you mentioned. you know who i have compassion and have some empathy instead of you have yes be no days of culture that is so people are big leaders. who. wish to believe. but let's be

a little more precise because i would like to talk to you during this interview about leadership and different kinds of walks of lives but now we've touched upon world leaders right the cult political leaders and you're saying this is the perfect storm and this perfect storm actually brings to the surface all the downfalls of the systems of the people who are actually having their countries masks are off i mean never has there been a time where everything has been so clear when they say the king is in a cave this is the time about the saying so. it seems like looking over. the world landscape of political leadership landscape. better that's my next question that's my next question but if we talk about the kings that are naked right. and that has become obvious during the make it

has a lot of people thinking that maybe the political elite that is heading the world great now lives in the old paradigm that doesn't correspond to the new problems that the world is facing and i'm not really only talking about the demick the pandemic will go away in a year and a half hopefully there will be able to see and i mean every 100 years there is a condemning but i'm talking about the problems that it has brought to surface and the inability of the current political elite to deal with these new problems that just don't correspond that old political paradigm what kind of leaders do we need right now considering that we know more precisely what are the problems the world is facing now. well you know certain things are not new and i think one of the the infineon there. the problem we always have is the greek factor nor the element of

greed has been there so are the ages in that still there. and that's i think a fairly not so silent motivator that people behave the way they do i mean it's really take the united states as an example even in there if you know if you live in the richest communities or the most bursted they have the best education because it was the education is away or looking so division believed to promise miracles they still built a vote for tom many of them who took trump because of. his f. and tasted don't financially but use a phrase shorts short wave or a short rate of looking i've been fair it's a said to your there is no short term. surge in the entertainment country which is divided and people live in a safe communities guarded by whatever powers protect the. goons who protect them which is a terrible ray of living his example. the great effect it has always been there and

it is unfortunately has been has come very much to the fore come back to your question and you're the only depressed new south and what you need is people who are curtain agents and are dealing to face reality and other problems by the way that we live now in an age of the social media has no meaning or its effect and you know it and thus is no stranger to that by the way in the distribution effect or its bottom but the world has become mosty in that and that this quite unfortunate that you start to get some should obviously limit movie a lot of people that i have spoken to said you know when things like playing demick sap and right where when there's so much uncertainty and no one has the answers he can be the most experienced leader and you can be very smart. and you can be married talented but ls you have emotional intelligence and that a compass is a lot of other traits within itself for instance empathy and out of today there's

no way you can lead a nation out of crisis like program like would you agree with us would you agree that something like emotional intelligence is a must have for a good leader during the times of crisis like this the 1st thing you have to know what are your strengths and weaknesses you can do it all leadership is really a team sport and fortunate tom to give that example because i like the example and so i'm also now my psychoanalyst amount of the life of 2 heads or mention professor and psychoanalyst he is the example of a school to mimic the narcissist in a malignant narcissist is basically i didn't write the bit about him actually because i thought so you know i can believe in the people because sicko machine really is as so he basically has made it seems is he is so insecure or that it's all about him it will never be about it's always about him something about him and the 2nd seeing his face indicative to anybody who's not raise him is against him or do anything to crush the prince yes to with it is of course going to be interesting

because of this election because he cannot lose its mind so he has to find all different ways to find excuses and so that's but coming back to executives you know the 1st thing i tried to do in my going back to your question about emotional intelligence is the question of no dice. and to understand the strengths and weaknesses so many executives don't know him self they don't know right to do more to do the sentencing is that very often and bossy is a very good example actually given the power of this. is kind of remarkable if you think of our community and seems like that's in the past but there's an enormous amount of or be used to authority so or this great tendency for all the greek word going to a breeze people become too full of themselves and nobody can push them back because . the case of course also in talk. so death and and that is also door to self destruction so as always my surprise that now people many people have a tendency to self-destruct in a leadership position unless you have

a treat if you take a corporate culture where people have a healthy disrespect for their boss but it's not so easy and particularly in the last year i've done quite some work there is organizations and organ but our this and the 2nd sing would always surprises me or the source of the many executives don't get the best of their people it's really again they have no again there's who is emotion tell it is and what i found very noticeable after the 1st week in my program it was 4 weeks over a year and the 1st thing you don't know that people never had a serious conversation is that they have never listened to them so that's what they do is start to have some conversation is that the other thing has to do with his deeds as i said the other ship is a team sport and since you can do everything you should focus on the since you're good at it and you should find people who can compensate for listening to you're not good at it and so i was they give me a somewhat neurotic to make something out of the short time and just be in my work at n.c.r. i've been trying to buy them yet indeed coach so are 2 really and it's always

surprises me when you look at exec a leadership in organizations that people spend millions dens of millions of dollars or whatever yours whatever id systems things like that but they are able to aligned. and that cost more money because you get terrified to better me is all this going and seems people are not allowed math for that take a sharp break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to a man fred katz to free years i was a political thinkers on the psychology of leadership talking about what kind of leaders does the world need today stay with us. or. are. thanks guys are financial survival guide. when customers go buy your additional. didn't help well reducing our.

that's undercutting but what's good for markets it's not good for the global economy. but the battle in this i'll. keep on the one making i wonder why did not. all of the. hope movie but there are some friends that the us are still so but the soul hoping to do something to see. the charm. they value. the simple dollar i'll fall in the most simple i'll put them on the

back you know book it. was a pandemic no certainly no borders and is blind to nationalities. has emerged with the we don't look like seeing the whole world needs to be. judged as commentary closest to sentencing. we can do better we should be. everyone is contributing way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges create the response has been much so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

americans love. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood the bargain you get a hope and then you know rebel right as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. and think about the longer deeper history housings men in the united states not just that question of the american dream but the bigger question of who the dream is for.

our backward man fred katz to for a year and a lifted thinker on the psychology of leadership man correct me if i'm wrong but what i see the real life is that the vast majority of leaders whether it's c.e.o.'s of corporations whether it's hads of states whether it's you know just the heads of little small companies doesn't matter they have the traits. that good guys don't have you know because good guys always finish last i mean we talk about trump being . narcissist but a lot of people who actually get to power are of power hungry are narcissistic are pushy they do lakes sort of go over other people's heads to get where they want and

that's why their leaders and other good guys with compassion and emotional intelligence always stay behind i want peace in the article about we should have leaders for life and then you know road which was a very cynical article because leaders for life are not it doesn't make make for stability of the country and that's and also in the tread organization so. in the short term those people might come up but i think one should do everything to have some checks and balances to prevent those people to come to the fore destination for example i have developed many kinds of c 60 christian mirrors that you basically tease out the narcissist i mean the doctor lawyer the commercial narcissus is part of the deal better rate what is the question of accessible rates you need to be narcissistic was a need for self as the excess that people. pushback they can tell a person for that kind of saying you know stop it this doesn't go anywhere but i

think when you have too much obedience to authority people are in luck to you and many of the leaders who talk about me from the echo chamber i mean they know what they think they want the right want are the interest of other people think that's i think important to me you learn you don't learn by yes tell yourself the same saying so this day in age you get to have some to class or take adventurous you can also say maybe we should have somewhat of a different view of a you have to be somewhat result of hope and that's partially also the younger generation i mean i i i'm not going to are in sync about global warming i'm too old to really come here not too old and i don't feel at all but i mean i'm not i don't know going to necessarily affect be affected so much by that but then i think about my children and grandchildren they are and so you can see that you know that the younger generation may be the company isn't it and yes actually the invention of the jungle generation because the younger generation was so affected my age and

more of them being gets affected by it maybe that's what it is to find to get all those people out of the way who have certain racial looking at sinks the let's say you leave a couple of centuries ago and you tater i don't know let's say prince of orange and he has led the revolt yet now. what do you have to change one of the essential leadership qualities you will try to grow in him. now i guess one thing we talk about certain qualities one has to have certain amount of self-confidence i had one executive who was who runs a large media company who told me thank you thank you for being in the seminar because i had the courage that she doesn't have before it was a very insecure person to make some tough decisions non-singing i'm not going to fight anybody that was actually it's a tough decision court record it's much easier to in bring in ben if you fight i said i'm he said i'm not going to fight anybody and i'm going to really hope to hospitals also and have i i have i take

a salary cut there's the whole top executives at say that say that's the courage to have courage to do certain saying and to stand up and say this is about it and you know be it everybody was crazy also feel awful but you can decide things are courage muscle to say this this cannot stand now so you have self-confidence i mean when you look at the person is basically a child who are so insecure or needs all the time to be enforcement so to be to be more aware what you can do and can do coming back to strengths and weaknesses it also going back to your comments about the care that you have a sense of compassion now you have to do it is in moderation because if you have to do and bess if you don't act anymore everything is you can that he or she can understand everything but that might be paralyzed what about cold blooded ness is something a good leader should also balancing himself. now that has to do with the balance of compassion. your menu i mean i'll show you what i mean because when you

see big leaders they need to take big decisions and even though it's for the good of the people in the long run it doesn't necessarily come across that way to the people right then and there and people sometimes have to suffer for big reforms for a certain period of time 5 years 10 years that's a big chunk of time for one person's life so these people are faced with assad to be compassionate no go with the reforms and you know let the people be happy now or be cold blooded go on with the reform whether it's a big c.e.o. of a company or president of a country but in the longer on even though people are unhappy now with the reforms it will be better off for the country or for the company i see it not as. a blogger this is he this cribbing created some tension no you have to make difficult decision because they the right decision as far as you can see in that cities and supposedly are elected but when you're elect people who just cater to division to

believe like you see in brazil missing mean there is this kind of discount of person or i mean they're coming back to america they don't have the competence to make those decisions if they really realized. they would say they are not stupid people don't realize that they would surround himself with people who would advise they look at a populist like come back to america is a tribute example of over 3 years nectar and he also knew very he was out of his debts so he made you know he had pretty decent advice that's not the case when you look at the present situation america so bloodedness is the business the ability i seem to take some distance and be able to explain what you're saying just in the better investment nation and there was a man called out in the hour who was the german. you're there in german consular he said a thick skin is a gift of growth unfortunately as only that at times you have need to have

a 6 again because you can never please everybody if you want to please everybody you sell ice cream that's my advice is there like a natural the wide and people between leaders and followers and some people are destined to lead and others follow or anyone really can grow a leader in himself if he wants to that's a very interesting question and it's not easy to answer because some people feel much better i mean in case of crisis we have a tendency to go back to what's called the dependency assumption be looking for someone who can lead us you know just as paul is already from brotherly ticks times you know we talk about ari for lucian bute for somebody. that's in general tend to say we also have this fight flight was at the same time and some people depending on their background to mean i mean i have to say gradually as you look at some developmental you know at the well actually for you to use to. talk about mine the

gold in the sea if you as a man this and many of the if if if you had been the favorite ocean mother you can't lose that's what he said so you are you get a lot of self you have this freedom with for concrete can do anything and actually consider similar you look at margaret thatcher at the time she was she was interestingly your hate her autobiography there is no mother there. there's only a father which was interest then because in the in this male chauvinists they will be lifting her father into the sun so does the book i was bought of as a tomboy so you have different but of course the best scenario i sing is that it's not just honey i'm home you know the chance of men coming home what you have to honey's coming home see if the role models in the family and those make it different if you have a fait accompli as a woman if you have a competent mother it's really sets of sets of the role model theory depends how what kind of elation ship develops in the family it's a little bit like also. you know they're coming back to security dino to the

parable of the hatch wrong no that's all schopenhauer imagine your head short is caught in the with and you want to get warmer so some of the head shorts and you try to get closer but as a hedge or how close can you get before used bad things happen to you is distinct so you have different kinds of heads roll you have to find proper distance so according to you come back to chow development darcey started usually one is secure attachment that you feel comfortable with certain distance some people don't want to get close they are always avoidance because everything ends badly and they have to people are very needy so coming back to your question if people are fed is. probably the better from a verse you know anxious intention they don't look for someone so interesting to me because this head to a pair of metaphor sets the stage of couple you'll asian ships and the relationships you have in organizations so i knew it so if you are for example very

avoidance and your partner is faint needy it's bad news you know you've run part is running off to go the other one has to take this going and. come of coming back to where you can about leadership certainly given your particular the attention to be if you have fairly early in life which has to do is what kind of care you have some people will be much better for various other people who are more secure in their skin build many much better than the others do you think. the demands of what a good leader are traits of a good leader should be changed according to the times will either him or a good leader is a good leader anywhere any time now i mean of course the difference things we have now believe in information society or you need certain different skills but i mean i wrote once not to skills traits now i mean coming back to the press as a christian it should be honest before. i was and some journalist before you said

you know leadership skills of work something great genghis khan and. shaka zulu. and you know some face simile you need no no to f.l. has a flippant remark to a journalist so i meant i wrote a book or other some of the day i wrote a book of shockers in which is the leader of southern f. southern africa message and his comment the problem is that because of there's not much hate in the botching it's going to move than we had in society but i think many of the qualities are still the same mitch has to do no really look at. all excel in the gate in our news of symbolism in his particular way of operating was very rich and also the way before him bethell you know he would be informed by the way which stupid is sure to lead off the talks because you can be killed and you will see shortly it was no stranger to many rooms also before the bethel

talking to people singling people out and seeing who act that the people felt special to death i mean they're really your g.-d. create a community of people and still the case like you have any the fish the famous bottle ashen couper there's the famous speech there and he and he singles are all this media people so if you don't feel committed it will fight till the end you'll do anything if there is someone that you think is a great model of a great leader that corresponds today's reality in today's time. who would it be can you name a president or a c.e.o. of a company that you think fits perfectly the times and challenges of today i felt it necessary medical has done a pretty good job. i think she has done a very good job is not an easy country to manage and she has been she made some mistakes which share in your underestimate for example the influx of immigrants and the inventors. she has been pretty nice if you have a woman

a storm really as you look at some of the women i mean. i'm sure she'll get some discount in a few countries men. are more more reluctant at the moment so that optimistic note that era of the women leaders that is actually coming. i would like to say thank you manfred it's been really a treat talking to you and i hope we get to do this again and maybe i can actually connect with you when i'm in paris and we can talk more about this because. this is a really interesting topic that has come more than ever in focus right now so thanks a lot for your tips and for your thoughts and insights. thank you. confirmation

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