there is me sophie shevardnadze when disaster strikes strong leadership is needed to rebalance my sister in haitian and regain control who are our leaders and how do they become that last one of the world's most prolific thinkers on the psychology of leadership man fred katz to free. manfredi gets to free is a professor of leadership development organizational changes said in seattle business school it's really great to have you with us wow what an amazing time to talk about later shoes but i'm going to start actually from a little behind so we like to think of idea leaders as being modest little selfless accommodating emotionally intelligent compassionate instead. you know so in reality though it's just about anyone about their boss from hell right and the story goes that you will hear plenty about self centeredness that there are rough there insensitive as leaders. is it realistic to think that this gap between the

ideal and the real realistic can be actually bridged i hope so otherwise what do they do or do something remember you are right. you know you don't need to be of narcissist. unfortunately too many leaders are really out from number woman sort of group it's very to. the nice terms you support your millage a sense of humanity and to see older stage no longer they've been there and break away sorry that's. their actually it's very interesting times then me because it focuses in a way it's the largest social experiment ever done. nor could. now that number sanaa is you condition one is that people become more reflective and say what kind of role do we need i mean at the moment. you know i look at the world and

i didn't wonder many years ago before you were born and i had at this about science which talked about how can a person in the erse so now people are more concerned of course about global warming and things like that there was also movie that was in the sixty's it's also of course in the time of the cold war it was. dr strangelove people enough to sort its and i wanted to dangerous nuclear all across and so it's still there actually every single bar companies like back a star and north korea you don't get the warm feeling was having their finger on the nuclear button then of course you have the terrorism because all over the place it is still there and they you have faults you know also in the case i know here quite well because as have been so many times there is income inequality i mean you look at america it's enormous fortune in europe right in the it's much less and of course countries like poland and sweden it's much more equal but when you have

large income inequalities it's an invitation for social disaster. and they have to pull them in and there were a different conflicts at the office of them then bad examples of course being countries like america. and also a country like india you know terrible way of dealing is it rich now that mescaline it is supposed to be people who don't from moscow or you know demand growth in caracas totally their lives and how it's it's really a perfect storm and and of course what you need are leaders socially as you mentioned. you know who i have compassion and have some empathy instead of we have yes be no days of culture that is so people are big leaders. who. wish to believe. but let's be

a little more precise because i would like to talk to you during this interview about leadership and different kinds of walks of lives but now we've touched upon world leaders right the political leaders and you're saying this is the perfect storm and this perfect storm actually brings to the surface all the downfalls of the systems of the people who are actually having their countries masks are off i mean never has there been a time where everything has been so clear when they say the king is in a cave this is the time about the saying so. it seems like looking over. the world landscape of political leadership landscape the. better and that's my next question that's my next question but if we talk about the kings that are naked right. and that has become obvious during the pandemic it has a lot of people thinking that maybe they have the political elite that is heading

the world great now lives in the old paradigm that doesn't correspond to the new problems that the world is facing and i'm not really only talking about the demick the pandemic will go away in a year and a half hopefully there will be a look see and i mean every 100 years there is a condemning but i'm talking about the problems that it has brought to surface and the inability of the current political elite to deal with these new problems that just don't correspond that old political paradigm what kind of leaders do we need right now considering that we know more precisely what are the problems the world is facing now. well you know certain things are not new and i think one of the the infineon there. the problem we always have is the greek factor nor the element of greed has been there so are the ages in that still there. and that's i think

fairly not so silent motivator the people behave the way they do i mean it's really take the united states as an example even in there if you know if their interests communities are the most bursted they have the best education because it was the education is away or looking so division believed to obama's miracles they still milked a vote for tong many of them who took trump because of. it is f. and tasted done financially because of fairy shorts short wave or a short rate of looking at the unfair it's a said to your there is no short term. surge in the entertainment country which is divided and people live in a safe communities guarded by whatever powers protect the. goons who protect them which is a terrible ray of living his example. the great effect it has always been there and

it is unfortunately has been has come very much to the fore come back to your question and you're the only depressed new south and what you need is people who are current today ages and are going to face reality as all the problems by the way that we live now in an age of social media has no meaning or its effect and you know it and thus is no stranger to that by the way in the distribution effect or it's and what about the world has become mosty in that and it's there quite unfortunate that you start to get. a lot of people that have spoken to said you know when things like demick sap and right where when there's so much uncertainty and no one has the answers you can be the most experienced leader and you can be very smart. and you can be married talented but ls you have emotional intelligence and that a compass is a lot of other traits within itself for instance empathy and additive it is there's no way you can lead a nation out of crisis like program like would you agree with us would you agree

that something like emotional intelligence is a must have for a good leader during the times of crisis like this person you have to know what are your strengths and weaknesses you can do it all leadership is really a team sport and fortunate tom to give that example because i like the example and so i'm also now my psychoanalyst amount of the life of 2 heads are mentioned professor and psychoanalyst he is the example of a school to mimic the narcissist in a malignant narcissist is basically i didn't write a bit about him actually because i thought so you know i can believe in the people because sicko machine really is as so he basically has made it seems is he is so insecure or that it's all about him it will never be about it's always about him something about him and the 2nd seeing his face indicative to anybody who's not his him is against him or do anything to crush the prince yes to with it is of course going to be interesting because of this election because he can't lose his mind so

he has to find all different ways to find excuses and so that's it but coming back to executives you know the 1st thing i tried to do in my going back to your question about emotional intelligence is the question of no dice. and to understand their strengths and weaknesses so many executives don't know him self they don't know right to do more to do the sentencing is that very often and bossy is a very good example actually given the power of this. is kind of remarkable if you think of our community and sings like that in the past but there's an enormous amount of or be used to authority so or this great tendency for other greek word going to a breeze people become too full of themselves and nobody can push them back because . case of course also on top. so death and and that is also door to self destruction so it was my surprise that now people many people have a tendency to self-destruct in leadership position unless you have a treat if you take a corporate culture where people have

a healthy disrespect for their boss but it's not so easy and particularly in the last year i've done quite some work there is organizations and organ but our this and the 2nd saying with always surprises me or the source is that many executives don't get the best of their people it's really again they have no again this who is emotion tell it is and what i found very noticeable after the 1st week in my program it is 4 weeks over a year the 1st thing you don't know that people never had a serious conversation is that they have never listened to them so that's what they do is start to have some conversation is that the other thing has to do is as i said the other ship is a team sport and since you can do everything you should focus on the scene should it and you should find people who can compensate for listening to you not good at it and so i was they give me a somewhat neurotic to make something out of the short time and just be in my work at n.c.r. i've been trying to buy them yet in coaching so are 2 really and it's always surprises me when you look at exec

a leadership in organizations that people spend millions dense of millions of dollars or whatever your sort ever on id systems things like that but they are unable to aligned at all and that cost more money because you get terrified to better me as all this grand schemes people are multiplying matter that take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to a man fred katz to free years i was a political thinkers on the psychology of leadership talking about what kind of leaders does the world that we need today stay with us. or. are.

you know when the family 1st said back in february the question i posed to the global audience was will this be a crisis sufficient enough to override the ability of central banks to paper over the crisis because for the last 30 years every crisis we've had whether it's a market crash or the 2000 subprime crash or a hurricane or ecological or depopulation or wars always been met with paper printing by the central banks and as long as the interest rates keep going down

there's no penalty for issuing all that paper as we've seen now for 40 years interest rates have gone down so now here we are in the end of the year the question again is is the cause of it a crisis big enough to not be able to be fixed by central bank money printing. a dog industry comes to life in los angeles every night. dozens of women sells their bodies on the streets many of them underage. los angeles police reveal a taste of their daily challenge if you're going to exploit for a child here in los angeles for the we're going to come as you see officers going undercover as 6 workers and customers to fight the 6 trades.

and we're back with mad catz different year. thinker on the psychology of leadership man correct me if i'm wrong but what i still. real life is that the vast majority of leaders whether it's c.e.o.'s of corporations whether it's hads of states whether it's you know just the heads of little small companies doesn't matter they have the trades. that good guys don't have you know because good guys always finish last i mean we talk about trump being in the league narcissus but a lot of people who actually get to power are of power hungry are narcissistic are

pushy they do lakes sort of go over other people's heads to get where they want and that's why their leaders and other good guys with compassion and emotional intelligence always stay behind i want peace in the article about we should have leaders for life and then you know which was unfair a cynical article because leaders for life are not in doesn't make made for stability in the country and that's and also in the 20 organization so. in the short term those people might come up but i think one should do everything to have some checks and balances to prevent those people to come to the fore destination for example i've developed many kinds of c 60 questionnaires that you basically tease out the narcissus i mean the political marsett narcissus is part of the deal better rate of is the question of access always you need to be narcissistic personally for self-confidence as the excess that people can push back they can

tell a person you for that kind of thing you know stop and this doesn't go anywhere but i think when you have too much obedience to authority people are in luck to you and many of the leaders you talk about mission echo chamber i mean they know what they think they want the right want are the interest of other people think that's i think important to me you learn you don't learn by as time yourself the same saying so this day in age you can have some to class or take adventurous you can also say maybe we should have somewhat of a different view of a you have to be somewhat bizarre to hope. and that's partially it was of the younger generation i mean i i i'm not going to are in sync about global warming i'm too old to really own a comma here not too old i don't feel at all but i mean i don't know going to necessarily affect be affected so much by that but in sync about my children and grandchildren they are and so you can see that you know that the younger generation may be the company isn't it and is actually the invention of the jungle generation

because the younger generation was so affected my age and more that i'm just gets affected by he had maybe that's what it is to find and get all those people out of the way who have certain racial looking at sayings but let's say you leave a couple of thank your is a girl and you tater i don't know let's say prince of orange and he has led the revolt yet now. what do you have to change one of the essential leadership qualities you will try to grow in him. now i guess one thing we talk about certain qualities one is to have certain amount of self-confidence i had one executive who was who runs a large media company who told me thank you thank you for being in the seminar because i had the courage that she doesn't have before it was a very good person to make some tough decisions non-singing i'm not going to fight anybody that was actually it's a tough decision or of course we're going to it's much easier to in bring in panic to fight i said he said i'm not going to fight anybody and i'm going to really hope to hospitals also and have a i have i take

a salary cut there's the whole top executives at say that say that's the courage to have courage to do certain seeing and to stand up and say this is about it and you know it everybody who's crazy also feel awful but you can dispatch ings of courage muscle to say this this cannot stand now so you have self-confidence i mean when you look at the person is basically a child who are so insecure or needs all the time the enforcement so to be to be more aware what you can do and can do coming back to strengths and weaknesses it also going back to your comment about the care that you have a sense of compassion now you have to do it it was in moderation because if you have to do and bess if you don't bet anymore everything is you can that he or she can understand everything but that might be paralyzed what about cold blooded ness is something a good leader should also balancing himself. now that has to do with the balance of compassion. your men your i mean infrastructure i'll show you what i mean because

when you see big leaders they need to take big decisions and even though it's for the good of the people in the long run it doesn't necessarily come across that way to the people right then and there and people sometimes have to suffer for big reforms for a certain period of time 5 years 10 years that's a big chunk of time for one person's life so these people are faced with assad to be compassionate no go with the reforms and you know let the people be happy now or be cold blooded go along with the reform whether it's a big c.e.o. of a company or president of a country but in the longer on even though people are unhappy now with the reforms it will be better off for the country or for the company i see it not as. a blogger see this cribbing create some tension no you have to make difficult decision because they the right decision as far as you can see in that cities and supposedly are elected but when you elect people who just cater to division to believe like

you see in brazil mysie mean there is this kind of discount of person or i mean they're coming back to america they don't have the competence to make those decisions if they realized. they would say they are not stupid people don't realize that they would surround himself with people who would advise they look at a populist like come back to america is a tribute example of what we're creating it was nectar and he also knew then he was out of his debts so he made you know he had pretty decent advice that's not the case when you look at the present situation american so bloodedness is the ability i seem to take some distance and be able to explain what you're saying just in the better investment nation and there was a man called out in the hour who was the german. you know they're in germany comes later he said a thick skin is

a gift of growth unfortunately as only that at times you have need to have a 6 again because you can never please everybody if you want to please everybody you sell ice cream that's my advice is there like a natural the wide and people between leaders and followers and some people are destined to lead and others follow or anyone really can grow a leader in himself if he wants to that's a very interesting question and it's not easy to answer because some people feel much better i mean in case of crisis we have a tendency to go back to what's called the dependency assumption be looking for someone who can lead us you know there is as always already from politics times you know you talk about are you from lucian bute for somebody. that's in general tend to be able to have this fight or flight was at same time and some people depending on their background to mean i mean i was to say qur'an was you look at some developmental now or the well actually for you to use to say talked about mine

a gold in the sea if you as a man this and many of the if if if you had been the favorite ocean mother you can't lose that's what he said so you are you get a lot of self you have this freedom with for concrete can do anything and actually conserve similarly you look at margaret thatcher at the time she was she was interestingly your hate her autobiography there is no mother there. there's only a father which was interest thing because in the in this male chauvinists it will be lived in her father wanted a son so does the book it was bought as a tomboy so you have different but of course the best scenario i sink is that it's not just honey i'm home you know the chance of men coming home what you have to honey is coming home so you have role models in the family and those make it different if you have a fait accompli as a woman if you have a competent mother it's really sets of sets of the role model theory depends how what kind of relationship develops in the family it's

a little bit like also. you know they're coming back to security do you know the parable of the hatch wrong not that's of schopenhauer imagine your head short is caught in the with and you want to get warmer so some of the head shorts and you try to get closer but as a hedge or how close can you get before used bad things happen to you is distinct so you have different kinds of heads will have to find proper distance so according to you come back to child development darcy started usually one is secure attachment that you feel comfortable with a certain distance some people don't want to get close they're always avoidant because everything ends badly and they have to people are very needy so coming back to your question if people are fed is. probably the better from a verse you know anxious intention they don't look for someone so interesting to me because this had to a pair of metaphor sets the stage of couple yelling action ships and the relationships you have in organizations so i knew it so if you are for example very

avoidant and your partner is faint needy it's bad news you know you've done parties on and off the only other one is a disgusting i. come of coming back to where you asked me about leadership certainly given your particular the attention behavior you have very early in life which has to do is what kind of care you have some people will be much better for various other people who are more secure in their skin build many much better than the others do you think. the demands of what a good leader or traits of a good leader should be changed according to the times will even or a good leader is a good leader anywhere any time now i mean of course the difference things we have now believe in information society yet you need such different skills but i mean i wrote once not skills traits now i mean coming back to the press as a christian it should be almost before. i was and some journalist before me said

you know leadership skills of work something great genghis khan and. shaka zulu. and you know some face simile you need know now to f.l. this a flippant remark to a journalist so and yet i wrote a book on aleck some of the day and wrote a book of shockers and it is the most leader off southern f. southern africa message and his comment the problem is that because of there's not much hate in the botching it's kind of the mountain we had in society but i think many of the qualities are still the same mitch has to do you know when you look at . all exxon the great in our news of symbolism in this particular way of operating was vacant and also the way before him bethell you know he would be informed by the way which stupid is sure to lead off the talks because you can be killed and you will see shortly it was no stranger to many rooms also before the

bethel talking to people singling people out and seemed to act as if people felt special to death i mean there were levy usually create a community of people and still the case like you have any to shift the famous bottle action coup or there's the famous speech there and he and he seems are all this media people so if you don't feel committed it will fight till the end it will do anything if there is someone that you think is a great model of a great leader that corresponds today's reality in today's times who would it be can you name a president or a c.e.o. of a company that you think fits perfectly the times and challenges of today i felt that mrs america has done a pretty good job. i think she has done a very good job is not an easy country to manage and she has she made some mistakes which share in your underestimate for example the influx of immigrants and the

inventor's heritage. she has been pretty nice if you have a moment of storm really as you look at some of the women. are so we should get some discount in a few countries men. are more more a lot more so that optimistic note that era of the women leaders that is actually coming. i would like to say thank you manfred it's been really a treat talking to you and i hope we get to do this again and maybe i can actually connect with you when i'm in paris and we can talk more about this because. this is a really interesting topic that has come more than ever in focus right now so thanks a lot for your tips and for your thoughts and insights. thank you. but

the vilest of all the oldest. one and if you know what why did why do you know. but there are also friends that the words are still slow but the still beautiful thing to do something to see.

the value of wasn't it i think there's a fellow. with a look that you know will look at half. mast geysers financial survival guide liquid those that you can convert music as quite easily. to keep in mind though as the treme into a place. for. americans love by and homed. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood the bargain you get a hoe and then you know rebel right as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. of the really interesting back and think about

the longer deeper history play housings men in the united states not just that old question of the american dream but the bigger question of who the dream is and for . islamic radicalism strikes again in friends as president emmanuel macron calls the beheading of a teacher in paris an act of terror. washington rejects russia's proposal to extend a major nuclear arms treaty between the 2 nations just months away from expiring. also with coronavirus numbers now surpassing the peak from earlier this year curfews and restrictions are being reimposed across europe. and pose your latest news headlines for just after 6 am moscow time check out our website party dot com

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