coming up in today's going underground the 1st today marks trafalgar day and while mainstream media will likely fail to chart the royal navy's links to the slave trade britain has been busy immunizing its security forces from historic and present war crimes this is the u.k. record some of the worst coronavirus numbers in the world joining me now is one of the guest star as labor m.p.'s of sana begum m.p. for the london constituency of popper in lyme out who has voted on both these issues thanks so much for coming on i want to get to the overseas operations bill which is going to 3rd reading but i've got to ask you labor keeps calling the main coronavirus testing system in this country serco test and trace when the actual name is n.h.s. test and trace the name the media most of the media gives it why why is it important to call it test interest to think the public need to understand that the any chance has been privatized over a number of years and be at the service that they're coming to get in terms of just

addresses not you know government owned it's done by company called circle which many people might or that of before and it is failing the general public there are not enough tests and to is there not enough tests and there are serious questions as to the mean which tests also being of ministry to do i consider to be say that for example in my constituency where you know tests are run in doubt constantly all across london and also that we we don't see the level of maybe even protection that staff should have. you know which which should be the case especially in a test and. is only one of the companies there are many other companies and certainly they would deny that they're not doing their best and by means of ours johnson says we have the best testing capability in europe so it may be bad in your constituency but it's better than anywhere else according to the prime minister i disagree and i think you know if that was the case we would not also her. add

a letter to m.p.'s from serco just on the 14th of october outlining you know and trying to miss past some of the missed what they perceive to be misconceptions and you know they're claiming that they you know they it's a just call triumph to have had now fit 500 and the descent is it's all good having 500 permanent test and test and that is welcome but if they're not producing enough tests and they are needed then it's not sufficient to to meet the demand you know at around your days of claim that $1600000.00 of the $5.00 militarist a divot have been done since the 24th of march again it is not though what i think across some of the regions and particularly in london where the demand is probably higher it just hasn't been the case and i think you know a lot of people are still coming up without an appointment to get tested because the system is just not working properly well that you are being put in charge of it says it was never any silver bullet anyway the man they were married andy burnham

is demanding scientific evidence for the latest tier one tier 2 system of coronavirus that we have here in britain is there a problem generally of scientific evidence i know in the balance age so there's no scientific evidence for some of the ts system itself i've been following the dependance age quite quite close and i do think that some of the recommendations have been made for examples of you know emergency measures to try and tackle the virus you know over a 2 to me over 4 week period could really change things around one of the problems i think has been that i don't think the government has been transparent enough with their data for independents age even to make recommendations for even city mayors as you mentioned to be able to you know make calls that are relevant to their region and that back of transparency that lack of openness has been that the scrutiny can be the same as well so you know we have questions on the temp income of human and why that's a measure. they seem to be effective but we can also see all of the data and the

reasoning behind the measures being shared with us and it's also much more harder to actually challenge the government on on those measures ok well your leader didn't vote against it explicitly you you may have similarly while the gro virus stuff is going on there all sorts of important foreign policy issues that are being debated in the house what did you make it may not even be foreign policy what do you make of this it's been called a method of immunizing historic war crimes by u.k. troops in iraq and in afghanistan maybe an island just explain what his overseas operations bill is i mean the overseas operations bill which has been proposed by the government is essentially to allow for the prosecution of military brass that which you know relate to crimes abroad proceedings over from 5 years ago or anything before 5 years ago to not be able to be brought you know in front of the

courts for prosecution for judgment and i think you know if you look at the last 20 yes we really know how much of you know the world has changed after 911 how much the world changed after the iraq war we are living in a different runs it is really really important and it was your party that was that led this country to the iraq war why in any way is the leader of your labor party saying actually that what is the labor position on the immunizing of british ships of historic war grahams well i think i mean i voted against the bill absent concrete and i think it's really important to get on a firm you know footing and position on a bill and to do so at 2nd reading and not to leave it of the door open for amendments to be made just at 3rd reading because i think that we did sends a weak signal in terms of our opposition to such a bill being passed and i couldn't possibly say you know what might. please in

terms of the human rights impact of you know the bill which is immense you know we are looking at a bill which does in fact you know actually impact upon the human rights civil liberties of military personnel who should have at any point i think in time with us 10 years down the line all 20 of them not be able to bring you know cases to the ministry of justice because that's the only way in fact justice can actually be achieved we know there are numerous cases where human rights abuses have taken place in iraq which have still not been brought in from to any national or international court as you know the government's position is that there are too many vexatious claims and your leader as a mean clearly opposing it up till this 3rd reading that you speak of but more worryingly arguably and this is made headlines all around the world the government has i mean it sounds unbelievable seems to be trying to immunize the security services in britain m i 5 and m i 6 from being able to rape torture and murder

people what war what made so many of you back benches in parliament vote against it and sick as adama refused to vote against it the me was actually the way in which the scope of crimes that could be committed are so wide and how you know that's that's called being so wide means that crimes can be incited so an agent estate agent you know a covert operative can actually go inside to crime commit rape or murder. as a weight or actually logically apparently being able to tackle a crime in the 1st place and the logic that you know in order to tackle crime in order to tackle terrorism we also need to may be allowed to stay oprah teves to commit maybe terrorism or murder or to china sea ice is actually you know on a moral point i think you know it should not be something that we should a tool support we know that. we need kobo protests to stop child sexual

exploitation for example these are serious matters we in which the government needs to actually have covert operatives on the take out what but what we don't need i don't think is to have for example covert operatives being in relationships with women you know having children with them. and not there that doesn't ever really knowing that that's actually what's happening that they're actually being spied on and i think they really do need to be safeguards and the argument that i've heard in the east in the last 2 weeks that the human rights act provides a safeguard and provides a limitation on this statute is a i think completely misguided the human rights act does not allow for prosecutions to be able to be brought against individuals or even public bodies for that matter nobody has been ever prosecuted on the human rights act because it's not possible under the human rights act to prosecute anyone and therefore the government sort of outlining that i think is really misguiding the public the edo and and the human

rights act in fact is actually under review by this government even if the repetitions it wouldn't look possible in the future anyway but that suggest amo built himself as a human rights lawyer punished front benches with that i think they had to resign over this why why is he so confident that abstaining is the best route i mean i don't know disappointed identity is he opposed to it i don't even know how many think there were a lot there were there were lots of conversations about this and and you know certainly i think had a number of good amendments but tabled by the front bench of the neighbor party to this then you know looking at the ways in which young people for example shouldn't be you know made part of the cove operate open operations so you know putting certain amendments through is a positive thing by my party by do still think that the main issue here is is the scope is is there a wide range of crimes that could. committed them in the food standards agency for

example a minimum it may be so makes you think why would food standards agency need to be given powers the government is talking about you know this happening all in terms of the economic well being if you look at for example what's happened in the last 2 decades we we no way we are faced with a climate emergency and you know do we need food standards agency to be given powers to buy an activist for example that you know oral history very very you know keen to actually scrutinize the work of the government in terms of agriculture and food and you know we know that you know we definitely i think many of us to feel that this is a direct attack by the government on you know organized labor or organized. trade union activity which is so vital for our democracy is the right to strike the right to protest extinction rebellion you know that their work in terms of holding the government to account on the climate is so important for that to be able to

flourish in a democracy but this bill actually puts all of that risk and just finally i mean is trafalgar day your leader has been going to have his eyes the flag patriotism black lives matter seems a fizzle that arguably in this country after all the stature debate how important do you think in terms of education we need to know about britain's historical imperial record and i think there are certainly lots of petitions are currently being put forward to the government and i'm sitting on a committee soon and jointly with education committee of which were a member to actually for example consider the public's demands around the black history curriculum and start to actually address a colonial history and this is one step in way in which to do that i don't think it goes far enough and as you say you know there is a bit of fizzling out i think from from what happened here in the you know with the black gloves much of protests is also not good enough i think to to talk about patriotism without actually you know i can origin. how damaging those messages are

for you know black and minority ethnic communities you know we don't need to prove our loyalty to britain when we need our party we need the government to actually you know put put number one of the on the agenda for example the pandemic and how it's you know leading to so many black lives at being lost how many of the 100 mi g.'s am us offering as a result of the pan of demick we still have the highest number of excess deaths being experienced in the want to treaties and those things are really really vital when you try to you know this is this is another quake in a lot of ways you know that this in terms of what's happened in the last few months the pandemic is really brought to like how you know racism is all invented in our institutions and i do not policies and that's that's what may be nice to happen it's not good enough just to talk about the curriculum and diversify i guess we need to actually see was the address the fact that people are dying in this country as a result of policies that are embedded in racist narratives as

in a bag of thank you thank you after the right after alleged washington failure to destroy democracy in bolivia why is trump secretary of state on peo now calling for elections in haiti on trafalgar day when slavery in the interation nelson was killed off because of spain we investigate the legacy of one of the leaders of the world's 1st successful slave revolt haiti's to sound over toward the so-called jacobin black party because all of them are coming over but they are going underground.

secret prisons are not usually what comes to mind when thinking about europe however even the most prosperous can be deceived we've been busy rows on the work to view houses were our. prison was located and the only people had access to the story to investigators covered the darkest dealings of the secret services but i mean. the great of no. box. full. thing for justice on our.

welcome back well even while the usa looks to tomorrow's tennessee presidential debate donald trump secretary of state might bump aoe has been busy calling on the caribbean nation of haiti to hold elections critics accuse him of falling into line with washington's repeated attempts under george w. bush and barack obama to destabilize the once richest country in the western hemisphere if true then trump is simply following the example set by us president woodrow wilson who imposed racist laws in haiti to raise the victory set by tucson over tour when he inspired the 1st successful slave rebellion in human history the historic flashpoint occurred during the time of nelson commemorated today in britain is trafalgar day dr sudhir hazara singh author of black spot because the epic life of truth out of a tour joins me now from oxford in the u.k. so their welcome to going underground so it was the richest country in the western hemisphere the 1st successful slave revolt it's been in the news because kanye west

has been tweeting from chavez airport in who was to say over tour. so to say it was the son of and slaved parents who were brought forcibly to haiti in the 1st half of the edge in century or rather brought to stand a man got a less than the richest french colony he grew up on a plantation in the north of the colony and eventually his talents less such that he was brought to the attention of the plantation araki and he became effectively the assistant of the manager of the plant as and he lived for the 1st 50 years of his life until 'd the outbreak of the revolution enslaved to 50 year olds watching this program can take heart that they can become revolutionaries of 50 it's never too late exactly and then when the revolution broke out in 1791 immediately became one of its leaders and rapidly established

himself as the. leader of the homa and slave peoples and then he has this meteoric rise becomes a general in the french republic and on the fight the british the spaniards and later on even the french kicks them out of how demanded the french revolution the 2nd but you know i'm going to ask you because the history textbooks i have at school said pitt the younger was a great reformer here in britain with wilberforce an anti-slavery you say to sail of a tour or basically. commanded nami the killed 15000 british troops on haiti what were the british doing that well it's a very good question and it's one that is rather under study it in in britain but one thing that we know now is that a soon as slavery was abolished in sandman in 70 in 93 and then by the french and

17 for the british who. adelanto interests in the caribbean region intervened militarily in sand in order to try and restore slick so between 709479 there is a british occupation of odds of saddam and 2 son has to fight and he fights them and eventually serves them out of the house to another misinformation about bit the bit the younger then what about the american independence leaders as he said rob spear declares the end of slavery in paris and 7094 any help from the united states the americans are divided because that on the one hand they know that they have slavery in their own country and the american revolution as you know does not take any decisive action against slavery at the same time some of the leaders of the

american revolution particularly john had is very sympathetic towards the republican experiment in hate but others like jefferson for example talked of the haitians as cannibals. and you have some leaders of the american revolution particularly the ones who were particularly close to slave interests like jefferson were very hostile toward saddam like and towards hate will donald trump won't be pulling him down any statues of jefferson i'll tell you that i made a joke about revolutionaries in their fifty's but given the brutality of slavery a half of 2 sons contemporaries may have died from the plantation he was it was born in prematurely and this you attribute to france's brutal code no war tell us a little bit about that. so the code no was supposed to be an attempt by the royal authorities and was promulgated in the late 17th. in the late 17th century an

attempt to regulate slavery so that the most extreme forms of barbaric cruelty small or slaves were some code if according to the cardinal law slaves belong to the last of slaves had no civil political rights and indeed a child born of the slaves became the property of his austin so the god no it is really a document which effectively. codify. the system of slavery and do you think to size a tragic figure in that he failed to declare independence he may have led the world's 1st slave revolt successful slave revolt but not declaring full independence for france was his downfall. well that's how it actually played out but i think that his strategy was the right one of because his strategy was based

on the hope that the french would understand what the best way for a place like sound amount of iran where my friends i mean even napoleon in the counter revolution against the revolution even napoleon because let's not forget and i mention this in the book napoleon when he's defeated and has time to think about his past actions that sent helena napoleon regrets the action that he took against him something that you and he says and i quote almost that i should have made end of i stroll and it was the french miscalculated that unfolds no we don't want this we'll just send a few 1000 troops out and we'll conquer the albums again well that proved to be a very costly mistake for the french to aside from all this diplomatic pragmatism he was not militarily trained and yet you think maybe some commanders today use guerrilla tactics inspired by tucson of a tour in wars against imperialism yes well i think one of the many remarkable

things about him and he's not even celebrated for that reason is that the haitian revolution reason to suck on really the pioneers of what we call in the modern age guerilla warfare we historians normally attribute the term to the spanish insistence to not only them in the early 19th century in the war of age you know it but actually all these tactics and you have to sign and the haitian revolutionaries during the seventy's and. so other revolutionaries of that hemisphere che guevara killed by washington backed interest we know about the some of the the great revolutionaries of the 20th century and really and as a part it out as tucson of a door and his death and why. well he was captured treacherously by the french in 82 basically the french and saved and. there's

a campaign that last several months a military campaign which is basically 4 to a stalemate so to say as a plan which is to basically wait for the yellow fever to take and decimate the occupying forces this is exactly what happened to the british a few years earlier but for that plan to be put into place he needs a bit of a breather so he negotiates this truce with the french the french of course no intention of honoring it so they capture him treacherously and exile him to a fort in the mountains for all and he dies in a year later in april edging a story you don't think the real hero is desailly in one of his commanders who seem to react to all these developments by wiping out the white population and truly greeting an independent haiti as opposed to the pragmatism of 2000 over 2. that's an absolutely fair question and indeed it's a it's a it's

a debate that is still very very much ongoing in haiti today when you talk to haitians often they divide between those who are supporters of supporters of. irrespective of the differences between the 2 men i would regard as strategies as complementary rather than. distinct from each other because let's not forget that when the french invaded. 2 the 1st interaction and the 1st resistance and indeed all the tactics of with and successfully pursued by the haitians were $0.02 tactics he is the one who determined the scorched earth policy that was and solid by deciding and is less tandems what is different and this i will admit is their long term vision of what and in. the sand among political community should look like to some believed that they should retain some sort of connection with the french that was not

a view that was shared. and you understand why after after the invasion well it is now the poorest country in the in the western hemisphere dogged by scandals after the obama administration the clinton foundation and so on tell me about the cultural impact internationally you talk about much earlier on the ira celebrating him you talk about paul robeson celebrating. the tour in the context of the vietnamese war why is it true salutatory was a raise from my history book and yet it was in irish books and books in vietnam well i think that's part in a sense of a slightly bigger conversation which is how how do we remember the colonial period and for a long time those stories were written by and in a sort of way that celebrated the circle achievements of empire and and this is. also true of the french. the french french

a secondary school children are found to my astonishment do not learn something here but the point that i make in the book is that is a survivor and what i would call popular memory he survived in the minds of the slaves who were fighting to free themselves in the 19th century and he survived in the minds of all the peoples who were fighting against colonialism and imperialism in the 20th century he really has this iconic figure even under british broadcasting rules today i have to say to our viewers we do not back during the war and the kind of a tactics used by to salute or why do you think it changed from becoming the richest country in the western hemisphere to the poorest as it has today well there were a number of factors but i think one of the most important ones is that in the 1820 years the french basically blockaded the newly independent state of eggs and force

that and haitian government to pay a massive indemnity to compensate the french slave owners for the loss of their slaves and that indemnity basically represented something like 40 percent of the g.d.p. of that and haitians 10 a precursor to the i.m.f. and world bank debt programs absolutely and also the center remember is that you know when that debt was finally paid off. in the mid 20th century. the the the haitian government was completely constrained by this terrible burden and of course once you lack economic resources to that extent that opens the door to political instability and of course the americans invaded and occupied haiti in the early to mid 20th century the the so-called great liberal woodrow wilson was the man who actually invaded 80 and read. should use racist laws so one of that's

one of the many things we should. tragic story. is that if you read the shows. the so-called liberal. dr severe has a recent thank you and that's it for the show will be back on saturday to obviously the day that international stock markets or the west collapses in history as the western economic crisis to cold until then you can catch all our interviews on our you tube channel and join the on the ground by following us on twitter facebook instagram and so on class. it was a very nice show from president who knew that i could have said no thank you or i

could have said thank you and i said i'll take it and now it's time to introduce my it's not bashful. don't travel thank you says very much for the. name whatever you want to name i mean i don't know how would i come that news that status on us telling our combat a recorder or e. network that's totally dishonest c.n.n. is says you know 100 percent negative i clearly there's a change fast changes so fast sometimes i'll say that's going to be a great story be a pretty good report and others good as you. will see what happened so who knows who knows what we'll see on the field it will be a success. there is a saying in washington don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good this approach describes the political a.t.m. fee or other stimulus package and the center of this standoff is who wins or loses

just prior to the election in the meantime tens of millions are suffering with no end in sight. the french president declares a history teacher murdered by an extremist a silent heroine the face of the republican a stapler mario service in paris. the british prime minister forces a coronavirus lockdown on manchester despite strong resistance from the city mayor residents told us the new measures are a step too far. the economic package that you know it works people are very big to put aside to think about giving people the correct why not just more people are going to be able to survive a bit and the u.s. agrees to remove saddam from its list of state sponsors of terrorism but the deal.