and as the global south celebrates the pushback of nato nation imperialism in bolivia can the root of all modern resistance from che guevara to pull ropes and to the ira be found in haitian revolutionary leader of the tour we talked to the author of a new biography about the so-called black spartacus policy more coming up in today's going underground the 1st today marks trafalgar day and while mainstream media will likely fail to chart the royal navy's links to the slave trade britain has been busy immunizing its security forces from historic and present war crimes this is the u.k. record some of the worst coronavirus numbers in the world joining me now is one of the guest stars labor m.p.'s of sana begum m.p. for the london constituency of popper and limits who has voted on both these issues thanks so much for coming on i want to get to the overseas operations bill which is going to 3rd reading but i've got to ask you labor keeps calling the main coronavirus testing system in this country serco test and trace when the actual

name is n.h.s. test and trace the name the media most of the media gives it why why is it important to call it test interest to think the public need to understand that the any chance has been privatized over a number of years and be at the service that they're coming to get to in terms of just addresses not you know government owned it's done by company called circle which many people might be fool and it is failing the general public there are not enough tests and to is there not enough tests and there are serious questions as to the brain which tests also being of ministry to do i could sit at the say that for example in my constituency where you know tests are running out constantly all across london and also that we don't see the level of maybe even protection that stuff should have. you know which to which should be the case especially in a test and. is only one of the company. is there many other companies and certainly

they would deny that they're not doing their best and by means of ours johnson says we have the best testing capability in europe so it may be bad in your constituency but it's better than anywhere else according to the prime minister i disagree and i think you know if that was the case you would not also had a letter to m.p.'s from serco just on the 14th of october outlining you know and trying to miss past some of the missed what they perceive to be misconceptions and you know they're claiming that they you know they it's an interest to triumph to have had now fit 500 and the dissent is it's all good having 500 come and test and test and that is welcome but if they're not producing enough tests and the needed then it's not sufficient to to meet the demand you know at around you they sort of claim that $1600000.00 of the $5.00 militaries to divid have been done so it's a critical of the march again it is not there what i think across some of the

regions and particularly in london where the demand is probably higher it just hasn't been the case and i think you know a lot of people are still coming up without an appointment to get tested because the system is just not working properly well that you are being put in charge of it says it was never any silver bullet anyway the man they were mayor and the burnham is demanding scientific evidence for the latest tier one tier 2 system of coronavirus that we have here in britain is there a problem generally of scientific evidence i do independent sage so there's no scientific evidence for some of the to system itself i've been following the dependent stage quite quite close to it i do think that some of the recommendations have been made for examples of you know emergency measures to try and tackle the virus you know over 2 to me co 4 week period could really change things around one of the problems i think has been that i don't think the government has been transparent enough with their data. for independent sage even to make

recommendations for even city mayors as you mentioned to be able to you know make calls that are relevant to their region and that back of transparency that openness has been that the scrutiny can be the same as well so you know we have questions on the temp in confusion and why that's a measure they seem to be effective but we can also see all of the data and the reasoning behind the measures being shared with us and it's also much more harder to actually challenge the government on on those measures ok well your leader didn't vote against it explicitly you you may have similarly while the grow virus stuff is going on there all sorts of important foreign policy issues that are being debated in the house what did you make it may not even be foreign policy what do you make of this it's been called a method of immunizing historic war crimes by u.k. troops in iraq and in afghanistan maybe an island just explain what these overseas operations bill is i mean the overseas operations bill which has been proposed by

the government is essentially to allow for the prosecution of military brass that which you know relate to crimes abroad proceedings over from 5 years ago or anything before 5 years ago to not be able to be brought you know in front of the courts for prosecution for judgment and i think you know if you look at the last 20 years when we know how much of you know the world has changed after 911 how much the world changed after the iraq war we are living in a different and landscape is really really important and it was your party that was that led this country to the iraq war why and then why is the leader of your labor party saying actually that what is the labor position on the immunizing of british ships of historic war grams well i think i mean i voted against the bill absent concrete and i think it's really important to get an a for. you know footing in that position on

a bill and to do so at 2nd reading and not to leave it of the door open for amendments to be made just at 3rd reading because i think that we did sends a weak signal in terms of our opposition to such a bill being passed and i couldn't possibly say you know what my leader believes in terms of the human rights impact of the bill which is immense you know we are all looking at a bill which does in fact you know actually impact upon the human rights civil liberties of military personnel who should have at any point i think in time with us 10 years down the line all 20 of them not be able to bring you know cases to the ministry of justice because that's the only way in fact justice can actually be achieved we know there are numerous cases where human rights abuses have taken place in iraq which have still not been brought in from to any national or international court as you know the government's position is that there are too

many vexatious claims and your leader as a mean clearly opposing it till this 3rd reading that you speak of but more worryingly arguably and this is made headlines all around the world the government is i mean it sounds unbelievable seems to be trying to immunize the security services in britain m i 5 and i 6 from being able to rape torture and murder people what war what made so many of you back benches in parliament vote against it and secures dhamma refused to vote against it the me it was actually the way in which the scope of crimes that could be committed are so wide and how you know that's that's called being so hard means that crimes can be incited so an agent estate agent you know a covert operative can actually go inside to crime commit rape or murder or torture as a way or actually logically apparently being able to tack. in

a crime in the 1st place in the logic that you know in order to tackle crime in order to tackle terrorism we also need to may be allowed to stay operatives to commit maybe terrorism or murder or to china sea ice is actually you know on a moral point i think you know it should not be something that we should a tool support we know that we need cooperatives to stop child sexual exploitation for example you know these are serious matters we in which the government needs to actually have covert operatives and to take out what but what we don't need i don't think is to have for example covert operatives being in relationships with women and you know having children with them. and not their that doesn't ever really knowing that that's actually what's happening that they're actually being spied on and i think they really do need to be safeguards and the argument that i've heard in the east in the last 2 weeks that the human rights act provides a safeguard and provides a limitation on this statute is a i think completely misguided the human rights act does not allow for prosecutions

to be able to be brought against individuals or even public bodies for that matter nobody has been ever prosecuted on the human rights act because it's not possible under the human rights act to prosecute anyone and therefore the government sort of outlining that i think is really misguiding the public the edo and and the human rights act in fact is actually under review by this government even if the repetitions it wouldn't look possible in the future anyway but that suggest amo built himself as a human rights lawyer punished front benches with that i think they had to resign over this why why is he so confident that abstaining is the best route i mean i don't know disease reported a disease is he opposed to it i don't even know how many think there were a lot or whether there were lots of conversations about this and and you know certainly i think number of good amendments were tabled by the front bench of the neighbor party to this and you know looking at the ways in which young. people for

example shouldn't be you know made part of the cove operate open a covert operations so you know putting certain amendments through is a positive thing by my party why do you still think that the main issue here is is the scope is is there a wide range of crimes that could be committed them in the food standards agency for example i mean the so makes you think why would the food standards agency need to be given power as the government is talking about you know this happening all in terms of the economic well being if you look at for example what's happened in the last 2 decades we we no way we are faced with a climate emergency and you know do we need food standards agency to be given powers to by an activist for example that you know oral history very very you know keen to actually scrutinize the work of the government in terms of agriculture and food and you know we know that you know we definitely i think many of us to me feel that this is a direct attack by the government on you know organized labor or organized work

on trading activity which is so vital for our democracy the right to strike the right to protest extinction rebellion you know that their work in terms of holding the government to account on the climate is so important for that to be able to flourish in a democracy but this bill actually puts all of that risk and just finally i mean is trafalgar day your leader has been going to have his eyes the flag patriotism black lives matter seems a fizzle that arguably in this country after all the stature debate how important do you think in terms of education we need to know about britain's historical imperial record i think there are certainly lots of petitions are currently being put forward the government and i'm sitting on a committee soon and jointly with education committee of which were a member to actually for example consider the public's demands around the block.

history curriculum and start to actually address a colonial history and this is one step in way in which to do that i don't think it goes far enough and as you say you know there is a bit of fizzling out i think from from what happened in the year with the black gloves much of protests is also not good enough i think to to talk about patriotism without actually you know i can ridging how damaging those messages are for you know black and minority ethnic communities you know we don't need to prove our loyalty to britain when we need our party unity government to actually you know put number one of the on the agenda for example the pandemic and how it's you know leading to so many black lives. being lost i haven't yet managed to me tease us often as a result of the pan endemic we still have the highest number of excess deaths being experienced in one or 2 meetings and those things are really really vital when you try you know this is this is an earthquake in a lot of ways you know that this in terms of what's happened in the last few months

the pandemic is really brought to light how you know racism is so imbedded in our institutions and and in our policies and that's that's what maybe needs to happen it's not good enough just to talk about the curriculum and diversify we need to actually seriously address the fact that people are dying in this country as a result of policies that are embedded in racist narratives. thank you. thank you for the right after alleged washington failure to destroy democracy in bolivia why is trump secretary of state pompei own now calling for elections in haiti today when slavery. was killed off the coast of spain we investigate the legacy of one of the leaders of the world's 1st successful slave revolt. move a tour of the so-called jacobin black box because all the small coming over but through of going underground.

l. look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such orders to conflict with the 1st law. for should be very careful about official intelligence and the point is made. ever. played on various shots and with artificial intelligence will summon the demon. the obama must protect its own existence as. well.

welcome back well even while the usa looks to tennessee presidential debate donald trump secretary of state might bump aoe has been busy calling on the caribbean nation of haiti to hold elections critics accuse him of falling into line with washington's repeated attempts under george w. bush and barack obama to destabilize the once richest country in. the western hemisphere if true then trump is simply following the example set by us president woodrow wilson who imposed racist laws in haiti to raise the victory set by tucson of a tour when he inspired the 1st successful slave rebellion in human history the historic flashpoint occurred during the time of nelson commemorated today in britain is trafalgar day dr sudhir hauser acing author of black spot because the epic life of 2 son of a tour joins me now from oxford in the u.k. so they're welcome to going underground so it was the richest country in the western hemisphere the 1st successful slave revolt it's been in the news because

kanye west has been tweeting from lugo chavez airport in nattie who was tucson luva tour. so to say it was the son of and slaved parents who were brought forcibly to haiti in the 1st half of the edge in century or rather brought to send a man got the. richest french colony he grew up on a plantation in the north of the colony and eventually his talents less such that he was brought to the attention of the plantation araki and he became effectively the assistant of the manager of the plant as and he lived for the 1st 50 years of his life until 'd the outbreak of the revolution of enslaved to 50 year olds watching this program can take heart that they can become revolutionaries of 50 it's never too late exactly and then when the revolution

broke out in 1791 he mediately became one of its leaders and rapidly established himself as the. leader of the former and slave peoples and then he has this meteoric rise becomes a general in the french republic and on the fight the british the spaniards and later on even the french kicks them out of sight of how demanded the french revolution the 2nd but you know i'm going to ask you because the history textbooks i have at school said pitt the younger was a great reformer here in britain with wilberforce an anti-slavery you say to sell of a tour or basically. commanded an army the kill 15000 british troops on haiti what were the british doing there well it's a very good question and it's one that is rather an understudy in in britain but one thing that we know now is that

a soon as slavery was abolished in sandman in 7093 and then by the french in 74 the british who. had a lot of interests in the caribbean region intervened militarily in sand in order to try and help restore slick so between 709479 there is a british occupation of odds of saddam and 2 son has to fight and he fights them and eventually serves them out of the hunt to another misinformation about bit the bit the younger then what about the american independence leaders as he said robespierre declares the end of slavery in paris and 7094 any help from the united states the americans are divided because they're on the one hand they know that they have slavery in their own country and the american revolution has you know does not take any decisive action against slavery at the same time some of the

leaders of the american revolution particularly john had is very sympathetic towards the republican experiment in hate but others like jefferson for example talked of the haitians as cannibals. and you have some leaders of the american revolution particularly the ones who were particularly close to slave interests like jefferson were very hostile toward saddam and towards hate will donald trump won't be pulling him down any statues of jefferson i'll tell you that i made a joke about revolutionaries in their fifty's but given the brutality of slavery a half of 2 sons contemporaries may have died from the plantation he was it was born in prematurely and this you attribute to france is brutal code no war tell us a little bit about that. so the code nor was supposed to be an attempt by the royal authorities when he was promulgated in the late 17th. and in the late 17th century

an attempt to regulate slavery so that the most. dream forms of barbaric cruelty towards slaves were some code if according to the cardinal law slaves belong to them. slaves had no civil political rights and indeed a child born of the slaves became the property of his austin so the god no it is really a document which effectively. codify. the system of slavery and do you think to size a tragic figure in that he failed to declare independence he may have led the world's 1st slave revolt successful slave revolt but not declaring full independence for france was his downfall well that's how it actually played out but i think that his strategy was the right one of because his strategy was based on

the hope that the french would understand what the best way for a place like fundamentally iran where my friends i mean even napoleon in the counter revolution against the familiar evolution even napoleon because let's not forget and i mention this in the book napoleon when he was defeated and has time to think about his past actions that sent helena napoleon regret the action that he took against him something that you and he says and i quote almost that i should have made him of i stroll and it was the french miscalculated the until it no we don't want we just send a few 1000 troops out and we conquer the albums again well that proved to be a very costly mistake for the french to aside from all this diplomatic pragmatism he was not militarily trained and yet you think maybe some commanders today use guerilla tactics inspired by tucson of a tour in wars against imperialism. yes well i think one of the many remarkable

things about him and he's not even celebrated for that reason is that the haitian revolution reason to suck on really the pioneers of what we call in the modern age guerilla warfare we historians normally attribute of the term to the spanish insistence to not only and in the early 19th century in the war as you know it but actually all these tactics and they had to stop and the haitian revolutionaries during the seventy's and. so other revolutionaries of that hemisphere che guevara killed by washington backed interest we know what the some of the the great revolutionaries of the 20th century and really are is about it out as tucson to adore and his death and why well he has captured treacherously by the french in 82 basically the french and saved and. there's

a campaign that last several months a military campaign which is basically 4 to a stalemate so to say as a plan which is to basically wait for the yellow fever to take and decimate the occupying forces this is exactly what happened to the british a few years earlier but for that plan to be put into place he needs a bit of a breather so he negotiates this truce with the french the french of course no intention of honoring it so they capture him treacherously and exile him to a fort in the show mountains and for all and he dies in a year later in april edge in history you don't think the real hero is desailly in one of his commanders who seem to react to all these developments by wiping out the white population and truly greeting an independent hating as opposed to the pragmatism which is an over to. that's an absolutely fair question and indeed it's

a it's a it's a debate that is still very very much ongoing in haiti today when you talk to haitians often they divide between those who are supporters of supporters of. irrespective of the differences between the 2 men i would regard the strategies as complementary rather than. distinct from each other because let's not forget that when the french invaded. 2 the 1st interaction and the 1st resistance and indeed all the tactics with and successfully pursued by the haitians were $0.02 tactics he is the one who determined the scorched earth policy that was and followed by disabling and is less tandems what is different and this i will admit is their long term vision of what and in. the sand among political community should look like to some believed that they should retain some sort of connection

with the french that was not a view that was shared. and you understand why after after the invasion well it is now the poorest country in the in the western hemisphere dogged by scandals after the obama administration the clinton foundation and so on tell me about the cultural impact internationally you talk about much earlier on the ira celebrating him you talk about paul robeson celebrating. the tour in the context of the vietnamese war why is it toussaint louverture was a raise from my history book and yet it was an irish books and books in vietnam well i think that part in a sense of a slightly bigger conversation which is how how do we remember the colonial period and for a long time those stories were written. and in a subtle way that celebrated the circle achievements of empire and and this is. also true of the french. the french french

a secondary school children are found to my astonishment do not learn something here but the point that i make in the book is that as a survivor and what i would call popular memory he survived in the minds of the slaves who were fighting to free themselves in the 19th century and he survived in the minds of all the people who were fighting against colonialism and imperialism in the 20th century it really has this iconic figure even under british broadcasting rules today i have to say to our viewers we do not back during the war and the kind of a tactics used by to salute or why do you think it changed from becoming the richest country in the western hemisphere to the poorest as it has for the well there were a number of factors but i think one of the most important ones is that in the 1820 years the french basically blockaded the newly independent state of aids and force

that and haitian government to pay a massive indemnity to compensate the french slave owners for the loss of their slaves and that indemnity basically represented something like 40 percent of the g.d.p. of that and haitians ted a precursor to the i.m.f. and world bank that programs absolutely and also the center remember is that you know when that debt was finally paid off. in the mid 20th century. the the haitian government was completely constrained by this terrible burden and of course once you lack economic resources to that extent that opens the door to political instability and of course the americans invaded and occupied haiti in the early to mid 20th century the the so-called great liberal woodrow wilson was the man who actually invaded a.g. and read. should use racist laws so one of the one of the many things we should

remember this tragic story of haiti after independence is that if you had he shows up the so-called liberalism of the west i'm dr severe as a recent thank you and that's it for the show will be back on saturday 12 years to the day that international stock markets or the west collapses in history as the western economic crisis to cold until then you can catch all our interviews on our you tube channel and join the underground by following us on twitter facebook instagram and sound plan.

it was a very nice show from president putin and i could have said no thank you or i could have said thank you and i said i'll take it and now it's time to introduce my. mr don't travel thank you says very much was the. name whatever you want to name i mean i don't know how would i come that news that's dishonest telecom data recorder or e networks and totally dishonest c.n.n. is says you know 100 percent negative i can read this change fast changes so fast sometimes i'll say that's going to be a great story be a pretty good report and others good as you. will see what happens. i always

say who knows what we'll see on the field with the success. of. the french president declares a history teacher murdered by an extremist a silent hero and of the face of the republic as a statement moral service in paris. the british prime minister forces across the virus lock down on manchester despite strong resistance from the city mayor residents told us the new measures are a step too far. the economic package they announced just it will keep people alive they think it's a place to teach you about giving people the correct why not just pull. people aren't going to be able. to remove the list of state sponsors of terrorism but the.