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filming the. headlines with another look this is. really. one of the world's. professor still on loan as. just recognized worldwide as a clinical research in the field of neurology of consciousness and so

glad that you're with us today. right so i'm going to jump rating whistle you never speech knocked unconscious right are lost consciousness but speed speaking scientifically can we actually match your lost consciousness i mean it's. someone who has been knocked out by mike tyson for instance really unconscious at that moment. well i don't know what it is like to be knocked out by mike tyson it's once your question about consciousness and when we lose it i think the historical. soucy is that we have considered consciousness as all or nothing you read or not out unconscious or come of those or your conscious and this black and white decision is very probably wrong with others so that consciousness. and loss of countries

this can be very gradual and i think this is this is very important historically when i started this research in the ninety's we had no money. what. is this investigative stage where people looked away but were. basically just waiting to die now we know that many patients we talk to are conscious of so. and so this is very important. or less consciousness is not all or nothing ok i think that this talk will be about different gradations of how much will lose conscience and what conscious really is in different states for instance some people write they report saying all

kinds of wild things during a near death experience which would call an unconscious state of mind i know that some scientists say oh these are just how listen ations but if my brain is hallucinating in this state right in means i still have conscious is just you know tripping on something so does that mean that even in the state of kama a human being possesses like you say minimal or some sort of consciousness do we have a notion of how much could that be and what is it. i think you're absolutely right that again the error which is made this when trying to measure consciousness how do we do that we're having this discussion right now we're talking if you will come talk we will use sign language or something so the only person right now so who knows what the sending feeling is you and you alone so you need to share that and of course it will who are come up those considered unconscious can

no longer communicate and so what do we do we basically look from the outside it's myself as a clinician as someone who tries to measure and measurable consciousness i'm gonna ask questions and so in intensive care we feel that a severe traumatic brain injury or a bleeding who survived a cardiac arrest and or in this town that i was safe i would ask him to do something squeeze my hands make any movements and then if i had a announcer i kind of test proof that they are conscious but of course when they dumped it on sir did i really prove that they're on township's no so this is very tricky we're making inferences based on people's motor response when trying to measure consciousness article and sometimes we can get it wrong and i think as you said we have underestimated the capacity of the brain.

often kolo when we think there's nothing going on like in some patients off to coma like in people who have a near death experience this is very clear evidence that this idea is they can have a very rich subject this personal. and ceiling but also like you know we see this in unreason sometimes we hear someone who has been in a coma our reputation state for a long time and the relatives for instance refusing to give up on that person every day being by his side and talking to him believing that he can hear them and then sometimes miracles happen this people come out of fed a tape of states or commas and they start living normally gradually and most of them actually say that they could hear people talking to them while they were unconscious do you see how that happens well absolutely i think with the scene we

contribute to do a better understanding residual brains function after coma and so was in the european task force and also now the american academy of neurology we propose it more neutral term which is under science's weight so. from now we'll try to refer to these people no longer as educated but as unresponsive they just no longer respond to questions and yet they look away and indeed this is a difficult i know there's a substantial. fraction of these patients who have saw ceilings emotions and itself and very frustrating because we downed axis so what they're actually perceiving and that is the editor of the religion and that's the expertise of the team here because science book where we use functional m.r.i. high density easy you see some machines here behind me all possible

measures to try. and document what's going on in science and we no longer depend on the motor response we can go and measure directly what's happening in the brain right so i read that you have located the area out the brain that is responsible for ending seeing this vision. tunnel to the afterlife so how rare would you say this experience is sounding if you can physically observe the impulses creating them so if that's what you mean by real it's we have. a scientific challenge to define what is reality but i think it's very real slow down and i think it's a season logical reality where i don't think we should be too arrogant this is being many years now that we've seen with trying to understand these near death experiences that nobody truly can explain and maybe if i

can sophia. has a little request for everybody watching us now in russia who maybe had such an experience or know someone who had a near death experience please share it with scientists share it with us the e-mail address is very simple and deep from near death experience at. the to be or visit our website i created a sunday show in its mind care mind carried out sunday show where including with our friends in russia all over the world we try to reduce our insurance when talking about consciousness including the very 2nd aging topic of near death experiences that we need more testimonies we have over thousands but sometimes i feel frustrated because i never had one so i should start by listening very carefully to people who have. and then try to understand so they temper apparent

told junction as far as i understand is also linked to things like schizophrenia alzheimer's live in the face of grey. it's my favorite organ and you're absolutely right that we have part of the brain right here in the middle it's on the right side where if i was simulate it and even healthy people one could prove folk so-called out of body experience so this is interesting now i don't think we should again say that just this art of the brain explains near death experience it's too reductionistic but it is interesting to have some hypothesis another part here is important for this feeling of presence then of course the assistant told. tracks that are quite

sensitive to lack of oxygen can give this kind of tunnels it isn't this bright centralized and we also know the stories about people having flashbacks of their lives and this is a structure here deep in the temporal lobe that is important for memory where we have patients was my brain a free stroke that sometimes the stories that are making me think of near death experience with a gann i think we're not there yet we are making brain scans in people who had any of that experience and trying to make correlations the truly presently it would be too arrogant to say well this is just this our dead chemical process in this or that part of the brain we've understood it and know i think we need to be more curious and to study it but also with an open mind because some treasonous truly is one of the biggest mysteries sizes trying to solve ok let's say if we stop

dismissing near death experiences as just personage a nation right and we accept them as important brain activity what can we really say about them as a now definitely what are they back away from near a science point of view. well the scientists will tell you be careful. what is true today is not necessarily true tomorrow so it is about a scientific methodology striving to confront what to crush them to under said was what you think you can measure and so currently yes we have a couple of hypothesis we got a number of papers it seems that kind of reduce our ignorance but it's still a challenge for science i'm fascinated by the sat that people who have for example a cardiac arrest when we know that the brain is using so much energy there is no other organ in your body that nice so much energy and certainly there's a lot for

a number of energy these people have these are very rich and details. and memories of how is that it's important to stress that they are not deaths because for some people also this is proof of life after death i wouldn't agree i think currently death is really a from tear it is a code for us to study we consider it in society as well indeed binary you're either dead or alive but biologically speaking this is a process and now with modern medicine and technology we can resuscitate some people for example was a cardiac arrest and we need to increase our efforts to understand the process of dying at one point to become serious personal and that is what we consider the best so near death really so those. wishes as the

scientific community as a medical community the more curious and to sow the phenomenon more and i think we were a little bit of scrapes we consider this so complicated and we. suffer from also censorship we can see that this made us itself which it should still and will that take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to dr steven law has seen as one of the world's leading researchers in a neurologist consciousness stay with us. max kaiser financial survival guide liquid those that you can convert into gas

quite easily. to keep in mind though as a team into a place to watch because they're bored.

and we're back with professor stephen. belgian researcher professor of neurology talking about what consciousness is and how much do we really know about it stephen when you have that near death experience a re one has very different visions i mean some people see their parents some see their lovers some see tunnels is there something anything from with people you've spoken to who have shared their experience with you about this vision. that they have in common for instance if i'm asked they said i don't believe in the afterlife right and i'm on my my my brain functions in a way that i don't i don't believe there will be a tunnel after i died that i see right with a light leading me to have an or whatever will i see the same thing as

a person that for instance very religious and believes in an afterlife is there like a common thing a common threat that all death experiences have. yes there is i think there is something universal across all cultures and we tried to. give it time to stop 10 so what is the most. common in our records mostly. jews are christian western and the 1st one is that they all feel extremely good sometimes they don't ask even the words to express how good they felt and actually difficult to come back next is this notion of a lie than the out of body experience they lose track just on and it was very interesting to me when having this discussion ends in petersburg with father sergei

who is a. religious leader in the orthodox church but also discusses with people. in the intensive care and he said that in his experience about cissy are so often patients had negative experience and that is something that maybe we should try to explore more and hence again i think i would line it more or people from russia to shared it and to compare it with what we see in belgium and france in the united states where we have now sauza and a specimen east and another example that strikes me is. the interpretation of the tunnel you mentioned already which seems to be different when talking with my colleagues and in the muslim world where it would be sometimes

interpreted as a door or in india where one itis comfort says and we also collaborate there it's more like a river so yes something seems to be clearly universal but also there are difference individual differences that may be also cultural differences that they currently are too anecdotal remediate more evidence what maybe we can compare it to is greek strikes i don't know socio if you ever had a near death experience so it is difficult for us to talk about but you had greece right i had to move all the time and i think your dreams in my dreams somehow are similar in their surrealistic contents and we can yes say that there is something dreamlike but of course mine dreams in be very different in their precise content then yourselves so my answer about near death experiences is i think this is

a says a logical reality that needs more science that has a shared common structure but also with maybe a personal meaning that can depend on where we were up and of course my friends and colleagues in india will hear. much. less frequently people talking about the virgin mary or jesus and vice versa here we have less people talking about some indian guts than the again this needs to be documented more. more want more details matter but when you asked me if i'm an atheist we'll have a near death experience yes and maybe you'll even have a missy experiences so far when we look at the dozens of tests in the news we have

is very hard for me to predicts we have very religious people who have these experiences sometimes they will indeed read this as something that brings them closer to god that they will become more religious but not necessarily and also vice versa so i think it's not just i a very religious person so i have this or that near death experience i think there are in this a biological substrates people often run out of options and now we're talking about assisted death for those who lost consciousness forever so in your opinion does that mean that we quit being conscious we're being alive in a sense so when my heart and my body functions but my brain is unresponsive congress cognitively dad am i still a life it's. a very important question where. we has a definition for death ok where do you done 8 that is when your heart

and lungs and brain cease to function and areas are simple then say this is the city's got more complicated when a decision is entered a new machine the arcus issue respirator let me again show you such a machine. so this change the course of history is redefined das this machine by the way it is called osea this osterberg week that the each citizen does of the oxalis was this so this machine from the 1st site katz patients was very very devastating brain damage it's reading through the machine so there certainly isn't going to be insert an as a medical community we redefine death not just of the heart and lung criteria that

not also in brain right that is what we call brain death so when your brain is death no according to madison and according to law you are death there's nothing we can do we can decide. that's very important and it in mind up there is not much certainty when i see it patients and that i try to get is a diagnosis it is what we call probabilistic ok it is what i did in this patient past when we say someone is death. it shouldn't be probabilistic it should be riots we don't want to get this wrong and so maybe also i can reassure you russian viewers we have these criteria says the 56 and there is never actually been a single patient where the criteria of. our consciousness ok there has

been diagnostic errors and medical professional errors but if you do the job correctly then brain death truly is death so i read you managed to match your brain activity seemingly unconscious patients by looking and prayed metabolise and so basically consciousness can be observed by counting how much energy the brain is consuming but what about the future one of the possibilities of brain scanning and in future what will scientists realistically be able to sing side of human brain that same can ears. honestly yeah you know. so sometimes we make big claims i listen to. his company you're a lady who's trying to plug in. computers into the human brain that's great is yes wonderful technology but. i think the complexity

of the human brain and more importantly the human minds is tremendous. so i don't know what's going to be possible in 10 years. we don't even know what we don't know so as we understand this. 50 percent when we talk about the human brain and minds or 5 percent or 0.005 percent so truly this is fascinating time yes we have all these things knowledge and see here grace. machines that permit us to zoom in on the workings of the human mind but again we shouldn't be too arrogant it's our complexity it's currently we're struggling with and sometimes is those very quickly . sometimes you know it's terribly difficult and slow like when or east the

science fiction books of my father even my grandfather we would be driving around in flying car us it's not happening we're still driving around in stupid cars he's 4 wheels so it's is very very difficult and i think that the human mind is truly trust us in life itself just as the origin of matter something that one point. it's been more than 25 years now i'm studying they did the most of this and there's just the sort of. spiritual. i can study. today. and we. thank you very much for a. very important topic and you kept saying we're actually watched all over the

world not only in. one. so hopefully you'll get lots of. people sharing their experiences with you good luck with everything and hopefully you know little more about what consciousness is and how human brain functions in the near future. it's an amazing country with her so many friends in russia and i'm very excited to be here. i love that idea

i think i can do that. different nice to make a lot of money with the paid millions and hundreds of me. here is the nice what. a great wall and nobody feels a lot better than me believe me and i'll build a very inexpensive like a great great wall. and just in case you're worried about who's going to pay for it mexico will pay for . it we'll see what happens who knows i always say who knows what we'll see on the field will be a success. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see that.

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