towards him but was surprised by how much she cheated his life against a challenging bottle of the each glenn says another note to me is a complete lack of reference to watson's ethnicity in any of the press 37 to him on the team's exploits it didn't matter he was simply a man playing really good that bold body says fantastic story and one that should be taught fight and wage in scotland and beyond the how does in collection c. really and stuff david says very interesting i should just see publicist bobby says finally are not mothers side my 5 times great grandfather was black he fought in the 2 major c. parts of the 18th century in the old navy and served under 2 roll navy captains against my paternal and highland and says to us in the 45 he studied in milton next to grave sin we are told he says job thompson's parents we just and this is the school this man football team have enjoyed the same success as the team that i'm to boston late have ever encountered us the way this team have been revising steadily

through the wall dr king's a stalwart side winning an amazing 123 caps over 13 years with if you're mighty she joins alex to deflate on the significance of a black woman leading that scotland team. film and amazing scotland could be 123 cops over the 15 year period and you saw the scotland team the scottish women's team to the system from just having a full of professional players like yourself to a very powerful squad in the world's top 20 as is not a how satisfying was it to see the development of the side now definitely it's all about growth over the years and from what i can mend those mean julie flee in there as they were the only ones playing professionally and the thing with all this laced up movida and that continued that light cushion and to get a woman's funds and push an intermission into intimate and chain more to invest more than in the fall down and i think now you can see the fruition of that shellac

has got the benefit of nearly everybody in the squad being professional and the course we can all get better as a nation the more that we change them all that in professional vitamins that man say no and clubs like that going to propel the national team forward and has done that so now also goes future generations thanks aspire to because now you can go one can play pool if you only have been an emetic to the grew up and kumble nolde scotland for there for you could have played for the united states support may have to choose scotland but then it goes the united states of a pretty good site now i mean there were lot and i was going to an account with them a week before and i just was next and so me to going to play for the national team yeah was blown the medical but that's about a don't feel a manic in any way some see as old you know going on come to know then just all matter it's all my skill in baseball ish a fellow more than a fellow american so just because i was born there was no attachment there's no

motional attachment for me at all it was just all about feel it pay playing for scotland represent them and it's definitely one that never dreamt my decision though that you can't just go just 150 years off the on who was and became the 1st black international football and. led to scotland side way back in 881 to a memorable 61 triumph over england to the oval what do you think of that story of under what. the efforts of no being made to bring that figure to the the centrality of scottish football life on me like i had no idea of a grown up in scotland what's 3 years old playing for the scotland team for 13 years been n n at hampden and things of that and i can't even say that i knew the story and you know because again it's like one that came before you know next door to hank is a point to cattle bomb and that went over my head not only brought to my attention i think as of last week so as of last week you know that the story i've got to know

that little bit more the thing that's incredible in the fact that 130 years ago but we're only finally talking about it no it's all the same being in the dark for way too long i'm glad though that you know like more tenses because it was a huge achievement in the money on the 2nd tenure that go on in the continue to talk and that you know recognise and that historic achievement in what he did and you know most of the result and everything so that in the incredible story that he said be you know more recognition that's now on the to be given. as a girl growing up in cumbernauld to push for international audiences a new tone just in the scopes of of glasgow the jew as you were playing football did you experience any of it racism. or when you became a professional player of the jew experience one off the pitch so grant's cumbernauld not too much a little bit and i think because thames i'm

a family much my brothers you know because they were like older people knew them so then you go that played football and i was like sesto so that helped me because everybody canada's coming on like you said it's a small times everybody knows and back then not a lot of getting was actually played football. so that help me but then when i go it's maybe somewhere else you know people just stand it you know call you the usual names and things of that and just laid them let it really let it get to me almost like a challenge to scotland you know member going to countries like. russia good and things of that and again just comments like that but nothing my overlay over a bit and not light hair and this light you'd see in the men's game just because i think the audience no female game was a lot smaller so you don't have the day you know microscopes like you know like my mail came to light just because the clothes were smaller but you get little besson well betsy and they're manly and drawn and then like say cumbernauld because it's small town and everybody can and everybody if you have

a role model for young scottish going for women playing football for black women playing football. people conscious of how important it is to see players like yourself so successful. and so i'm a lawyer so the fellow back and you know when people ask me my role models it's like you always look to the men's game because that's what who you see on t.v. and just compare them but i think it's important for females to have like role models you know layer female felt like them so they can relate to see their struggles and see how they came through and limb from limb their story in my how they star and how they grew up and how they came through that they'll see so it's definitely intell and i take that seriously as well so when you nothing thames of like getting back in to go into schools and speaking to schools and speaking to get and coaching you know my ghettos over here i'm so conscience you know i know what they're going through what they're you know what lies ahead so it's about china

help them navigate through that focal in the john them what they've got to what's ahead so definitely something that not take seriously in my responsibility seriously and just glad if my story can help anybody in touch anybody then i'm happy with that idea of a message for scotland a new sort of way to field and black history month again is just like you know speaking up you know maybe when sayings that happened to me when i was younger and tantalize that would say anything but i think it's so important you know this day and age especially that you know if you go and see you know you stand up you speak up museum voice and it's about helping people to educate people and for them to learn because in the day we're all human beings and no matter skin color you know we all want to want the same things in life and it's about lennon to you know about each other if you and i kick the 1st black woman cop to the scotland thank you so much for joining me on the alex on the chill. thank you very much and thanks

happened and so from the top to move to scotland women's football team to an england great when i interviewed john bombs he has some really interesting things to say about the why do issues of racism in society. must be difficult to be a racist when you have your own team stop playing black is it not you have to look at the reality of racism in football whereby i was racially abused by little and someplace often and i'm the exact same person i came to difficult and they've been racially abused me so i you know football particularly you know up in scotland you know how passionate they are regardless whether you're a racist or not if a player has experience up in bosco any place arranges if you score goals or the bill of you so but what i do know is that had i not been a good player and black players who go to big clubs and do well of course even if there are unconsciously or consciously racist people they don't racially abused but are they bad players and they play for the same clubs or job as going to liverpool terrell a player i've got racist abuse i know that 100 percent because it's not personal

it's about the perception they have of of the group that you belong to and they're worth in a very same way as the perception we have a women's worth and gay people who are so i was in on it on any illusion that they looked to me because you know i'm john bond and they love black people because they love me. because i see alex the arc of the black and it's a play about race would be 5 it's advanced and you played well and it's like every camel that they want to race that piece so i look at racism in football and race and it's actually 2 different ways the reality of race is a psychic just much more hot hitting much more all encompassing and much more serious than it is in football but it all boils down to the fact that the perception we have of your works and for the transactional benefits if you do well for them they will forgive you anything i love you but that doesn't mean they're not unconsciously racist so little for as you love me i say of course you are racially biased not towards me because you love me but what's the average black person in the street or the average woman and that's what we have to change. and how much progress has been made in recent years let's look at football 1st and how

much is still to do to racist attitudes well the progress made in football to 2 aspects of football 1st of all the game. the sport the $1000.00 it match and then that institution which is from the hierarchy going to be from the management going to be administrators now all the playing course pect if it made huge strides in fact of black players who are disproportionately represented in football because you have more than 20 percent black players and less than 10 percent black people in the country and in terms of players not be paid the same amount of money when a player back there takes a shot the goal posts are moved there no medical small in life a black bet on the black person trying to get a job or trying to get employment up in housing or access to social care the goal posts are moved for that the goal cause i move the football as yes with me every now and again in a minute on a saturday or if you go to monk bowl gary you will get racist abuse but in terms of the representation of black people in for all this to put forth that they're completely equal now from

a management perspective that's different than oh bad managers don't like administrator has no bad people nationals of football has to know that people are nationals of government and all the and all the industries anyway so white should football be any different but why that it is because sports not just football but sports recognize the transactional benefit of having a black ashley from jackie robinson playing baseball to muhammad ali boxing for america in the olympics they recognize and that doesn't mean they're not racially biased they recognize the transactional benefit of having a black sportsman which will give them gold medals give them money because actually rob is going to hit a home run now that's obvious you say bolt is going to beat anybody 100 meters mike tyson is going to knock you out however what is the transactional benefit of having a black say into intelligent man who can be a football manager now to change the perception of his worth nothing's going to change. coming up after the break alex is joined by the editor of black history month 2020 kathryn ross joined us today.

in the 1920 s. and thirty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of their descendants still live in russia. looking at the risk of you know nobody but

us though it was tough to get sick with the cyclone things on their way to set their child on the dock and. back home but i can merican suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. of the deal and i would be a loser and show them one by else a store or by doing. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the. earlier 2 through during the night you found great crowds. moving towards you you're going to go you. know almost a 100 years later history is repeating itself my great grandfather george time went to russia. probably the worst time to go anywhere why not me. why don't i come here.

to. welcome back by christie month has been celebrated in the u.k. every october for more than 30 years despite this year's necessity of holding all the events on line they have achieved unprecedented publicist a part of the surge in support against racism in the wake obviously of george floyd in minneapolis alex is joined by 2020 editor of black history month catherine north professor of search. catherine welcome to the alex salmon show hello thank you very much for having me on you've described this month black history month this year as the as the biggest and best ever been to be in a huge number of events this year yes

a lot of them on line though of necessity so that's been quite different 1st saw we've missed out on the carnival as well mean big crowds in the streets and moving around and we've missed out on you know just doing generally events where we'd all get together to watch films and things that are about caribbean history or black history generally err if miss the closeness of it and how would you respond to people who say well look you know every month should be a black history month shouldn't special a fictional just one single month from the year do you think that the sort of events of seen in the coverage that was seen has justified the idea of a specific month for black history no i'm really grateful and i'm old enough to remember when it was history week and then it grew into a history month now we're finding that a month is not long enough simply because there's so many events sun so yeah every month it should be a pakistani mountain and everybody can get to experience all the good things that

are on you know from drummer's films and just social meta to be able to talk about our history and heritage and i just said obviously the vents of forster on line in the main for the history month this year do you have a highlight last far to build something unexpected that tom didn't a grandstand success salvi you point to which or which has surprised even yourself terms of how effective it was. yes well we bid on brain stream t.v. so that was good but the icing on the cake was so we had to do interview for parliament. for their tours of history and heritage that's there so we took part in that and that was really good there's so much actually in the building in the house of commons in the house of lords that tell our story that i need to

hire out there so that people will do more of those tours and visits in and and then also people will know that we've been here for a very long time and we have the evidence there and we have done a lot that's the point of my museum is to say we have made positive contributions to the k. and have been doing man since 1600. does it assist in your view that the self-esteem of of young white kids in particular to knaw the influence and contribution that figures in history of made that perhaps has been written note of of conventional history well i think that history month also is for everyone except for white people and they need to know the caps in their history and to know that we have been here 1st on this really just said that we have and the things that we have done but yet black children especially need to know that because when

they're criticised and have negative things said about them they can point to named individuals and say but look what they did and they can also feel good that if somebody could have achieved that in the times of slavery or just post slavery then these young people of today will be able to make their mark to you as editor of the black history month for 2020 when you have been visiting this year's program you boast of. consider of the the balance on the one hand of celebrating the chief mints or blight figures from history and on the other hand prettier context to some of the more unsavory parts of history how did you reconcile that balance as you plan on the sheer celebration but as in all things i do they are child to point out the positive and some of the negative so the 1st thing that hits us was the covert and for that i was pleased to report that we were on the frontline and doing great

things and we were one of those heroes it was celebrated in the national press and whatever but then i had to point out that. because we haven't had good accommodation because of the low paid jobs we had you know we we suffered disproportionately so after he sent it all that but then i said and so what are we going to do going forward so i've always left readers with something to think about how they'll change a situation improve or enhance whichever aspect they're going to take away from it everyone talks about the new normal well in the new no more i don't want to go back to being on the margins in the new normal i want to be able to feel more power and less of this powerlessness that i have so i'm hoping that our black people are feeling proud and. regenerated but i'm hopin others who are responsible for policy and legislation and so on take notice enough is enough

we've waited 400 years and it cannot continue and as they can see there are so many of us that are well talented have the experience that we can make a difference to our country it's ours to. editor of black history month 2025 you so much for joining me on the alexander joe thank you very. oh delighted to be joined from his home in pelican near edinburgh by professors of geoffrey palmer geoff welcome back to the alex salmon show oh i'm delighted to be back and if you think the key audience for black history month is that for young white kids to understand some of the great figures who for hadn't received acknowledgement that should have been the past on or is it for the white population to come to terms with the fact that black people have made such an

important contribution to history i think you know. british history or scottish history or welsh history or even irish history cannot be discussed without black. involvement and it's just because i think our history and. for whatever reason i think you know i've been very strong about this i think for self-serving reasons if they had some mythical idea that the scots do not want to hear about their history especially if it's not nice and us they've spent a long time these historians manipulating its kodesh astri to sort of moderate the black bit and i think this is wrong and i spoken as you know all over the country and when i finish my lecture the scottish people of always say to me why hasn't

anybody told us this before. and somehow it's as if the scottish people can't teach their own history and i think that's almost insulting but isn't that the case would be from what they've done on the done thus monument and you know people would say i suppose in defense of the average human not just standing philosopher but a rational as well as henry that was a home whose horse or a fearsome a poodle a scottish radicalism as well as be involved in slavery that wouldn't that have been more appropriate to allow the negative views expressed by human to be ventilated to be put into context to be part of the examination of hopes of say well or get rid of his name altogether which seems a seems are a different tactic to the one used above the us monument it's a salutary lesson you know that in our time. if people

like you know academics or politicians or whatever if they go out their way to sort of mis lead the public and turn people against other people then dundas to me is like you earl it is used on reason and whatever is fine you know but i remember one of my colleagues once at harriet once university trying to get my support on some issue in the university and he said come on jeff you know we've got to get the spirit of enlightment and i said well during the enlightment i was cutting for the king so i'm not impressed by the enlightenment because during that period we had the most when i would call you know the most profitable evil the world as c don't underestimate it be disestablished nature of very system and i just feel programs like this help.

because the university they haven't done their job the schools have not done their jobs and it's probably not the school's fault i think we need government to say to schools get this in your curriculum it's got to be part of the examinable curriculum not nice to do and i think if we can do that we can change this or fall attitude to other people where we treat another human being. is you know a different species that's what you say right people are different species that means we're like cats and dogs and that is so untrue because all human beings are perfectly for each other and that's a definition of a species and therefore that concept of race that you know one race is superior to

beyond that you know where one humanity nothing less and finally. there's probably last week for each of the story of under watson the 1st by international football player who led this team to to the oval in london and how much of the old enemies 6 goals to one how do you think if that story had been better of norman better told would have been a role model for young kids and scotland to know that the more successful scotland captain in history was black well you know i think a lot of white scottish people would actually admire that you know i think like it's work but i really believe. that in my time and in scotland you know a lot of scottish people admired my achievements in a sense that you know i made a video for the scottish government some time ago which you know is called we are

scotland and i think a lot of blockades would would would admire what's and rightly so but i can assure you where we've got to get to is where white people admired watson because he was scottish the point to start when i got my knighthood some time ago there was all these you know ladies in tears cause wanted to give me hugs as part of my achievement and and they and mottola title chief that i don't think my color. had anything to do with it and that's what we want and i think what should be taught and should be admired by all scots because he was playing for scotland professor geoffrey palmer thank you very much indeed for joining me once again from the examiner sure thank you very much alex see you again. we featured a program on the extraordinary story of i'm 2 what's in as

a contribution to restoring the best key figure to footballing history the fact that it was necessary is a case in point that all too often the contribution of black men and women has been then played or even erased from the record books the importance is obvious role models of successful focus can have a great impact on how young people look at their own potential and opportunities however turbines are surely connect to i.q. that the task is not to think of black women men justice role models in sport music but also in finance business and even politics and in terms of securing equality the key audience for this appreciation is not black but white that out of awareness provides the justification for black history month. but for now i'm from alex myself and although the show is good by stacy i mean hope to see you all again next week.

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