the football hero i'm jus watson who led to steam to a devastating 61 triumph over england in march 8081 m g watson was scotland's 1st and thus far only black football captain it was 130 years before the scotsman followed in his footsteps and captain her country if you will my dear one of scotland's most cup players of all time joins us from florida to tell us of the experience of a black woman beating scotland and we're joined again by england great john barnes who places football in the context of the struggle for equality and justice in the 2nd half of today's show we ask black history 2020 editor kathryn goss about the unprecedented published you received by this year's program of events while professor jeff palmer i q's that revisiting the often and simply say deficiency is still a positive experience but 1st your tweets i messed this on last week sure 1st to hear from i'm to say it's really an episode of the show football and black history

might not be your thing but it was great to hear from general bright talking of scottish history so well let's hear from krista says really sure alex i love the story what a remarkable and sadly forgotten figure we should have a statue of him not sancia watson i decided hunton as one of our original creates so much of our history that we don't know thanks for telling this story so well scotia says was it great sure did we detect a lump in your through alex spent describing freydon scotland's 1st but national football cuts and i think so surely says being a women to a certain age i'm nonplussed by foot sliver i was disappointed by today's topic however i faced invading gaging i'm worthy i charge of and towards him but was surprised by how much he did chief in his life against a challenging backdrop of the each glenn says another new to me is a complete lack of reference to what since ethnicity in any of the press 37 to him on the team's exploits it didn't matter he was simply a mind. being really good that bold body says fantastic story i'm one that should

be taught fighting weight in scotland and beyond the how does an collection see brilliant stuff david says very interesting i should to see why your publicist bobby says finally are not another side my 5 times great grandfather was black he fought in the 2 major sea battles of the 18th century in the old navy and served under 2 all navy captains against my paternal and highland ancestors in the 45 he studied in milton next to creative since we are all he says job thompson's parents i mean just in recent times the school this man football team have enjoyed the same success as the team that i'm to boston late have ever encountered us the way this team have been revising steadily through the world writings a stalwart side winning an amazing 123 caps over 13 years with if you're mighty she joins alex to reflect on the significance of a black women leaving that scotland team the film of the amazing scotland career

$123.00 cups over the 13 year period you saw the scotland team the scot women's team transition from just having a 104 professional players like yourself to a very powerful squad in the world's top 20 as is no host satisfying was it to see that development of the side. not definitely it's all about growth over the years and from when i came in as me and julie flea in there as they were the only ones playing professionally and the thing with obviously stuff movida and that continued that light pollution and to get a woman's funds and potion and intimate and chain more to invest more than in the fall down and i think now you can see the fruition of that shellac has got the benefit of nearly everybody in the squad being professional and the course we can all get better as a nation the more that we chain them all that in professional vitamins that man say though and clubs like that going to propel the national team forward and has done

that so and also goes future generations thanks aspire to because now you can go one can play pool if you only have been an amenity grew up and kumble nolde scotland for there for you could have played for the united states support may have to choose scotland but for them to go as the united states of a pretty good site now i mean there was and i was going to an account with them a week before and i just was next and so me to going to play for the national team yeah was blown the medical but that's about a don't feel a manic in any way some see as old you know going on cumbernauld in just a matter that's all my school and b. school ish a fellow one the fellow americans so just because i was born there was no attachment there's no motional attachment for me at all it was just all about fuel it pay playing for scotland represent them and it's definitely $1.00 that never regretted my decision that you can't just go just 150 years off the on who was on and became the 1st black international footballer and led to scotland side way back in 80 and

81 to a memorable 61 triumph over england to the oval what do you think of that story of. the efforts of know being made to bring the figo by to the the centrality of scottish football life on me like i had no idea of a grown up and. and 3 years old playing for the scotland team for 13 years been n n at hampton and things of that and i can't even say that i knew the story and you know because again it's like one that came before you know next door to hank is a point to carry that over and that went over my head not only brought to my attention i think as of last week so as of last week you know that this story i've got to know that little bit more the thing that's incredible in the fact that 130 years ago but only finally talking about it no it's almost like being in the in the dark for way too long i'm glad though that you know a lot more tense is because it was

a huge achievement and the money on the 2nd tenure that go in the continue to talk nicely you know recognizing that historic achievement in what he did and you know most of the result and everything so that in an incredible story and he said be you know more recognition that's now on the to be given. as a girl growing up in combat mode to put flew into national audience is a new tone just in the scope of glasgow the jews as you were playing football did you experience any of it racism. or when you became a professional player of the jig speedy and so on or off the pitch so grant's cumbernauld not too much a little bit and i think because thames i'm a family much my brothers you know because they were like older people knew them so then they knew hours ago that played football and i was like which is low so that helped me because everybody canada's coming on like you said it's a small times everybody knows and then not long get it was actually play football

so that helped me but then when i go it's maybe somewhere else you know people just stand it you know call you the usual names and things of that and just laid them let it really let it get to me almost like a challenge of scotland you know member going to countries like. russia good and things of that and again just comments like that but not in my over way lay over a bit in a light hair in this light you see in the men's game just because. thank the audience no female game was a lot smaller so you don't have the day you know microscopes like you know like my mail came to light just because the clothes were smaller but you get little besson well betsy and they're manly and drugged and then like say kumba nabucco the small town in everybody can and you everybody if you have a role model for young scottish going for women playing football for black women playing football. people conscious of how important it is to see players like yourself so successful. and so i'm

a lawyer so the fall back and you know when people ask me my role models it's like you always look to the men's game because that's what who you see on t.v. and just compare yourself to them but i think it's important for females to have like role models you know layer female felt like them so they can relate to see their struggles and see how they came through and lamb from my in their story in my how they start and how they grew up in how they came through that they'll see so it's definitely intell and i take that seriously as well so when you nothing temps of like get them back in to go into schools and speak into schools and speak and to get old and cochon you know my ghettos over here i'm so conscience you know i know what they're going through what they're you know what lies ahead so it's about china help them navigate through that focal isn't john them what they've got to what's ahead so definitely something that not take seriously in my responsibility seriously and just glad if my story can help anybody in touch anybody then i'm happy with that idea of

a message for scotland in the ether way the field and black history month again is just like you know speaking up you know maybe when sayings it happened to me when i was younger and tantalize that would say anything but i think it's so important this day and age especially that you know if you go and see you know you stand up you speak up museum voice and it's about helping people to educate people and for them to learn because in the day we're all human beings and no matter skin color you know we all want to one the same things in life and it's about len and to know about each other if you and i kick the 1st black woman cop to the scotland thank you so much for joining me on the alex on the chill. thank you very much and thanks happened. and so from the captain of the scotland women's football team to an england great when i interviewed john bombs he has some really interesting things to say about the why the shoes of racism in society. must be difficult to be

a racist when you're your own team stop playing black is it not you have to look at the reality of racism in football whereby i was racially abused by liverpool fans in place of what's that and i'm the exact same person i came to the vocal and they've been racially abused me so i you know football particularly you know up in scotland you know how passionate they are regardless whether you're a racist or not if a player has experience up in glasgow he plays for ranges if you score goals so they'll of you so but what i do know is that had i not been a good player and black players who go to big clubs and do well of course even if there are unconsciously or consciously racist people they don't racially abused but are they bad players and they play for the same club so john barr is going to look will ferrell a player i've got racism because i know that 100 percent because it's not personal it's about the perception they have of of the group that you belong to and they're worth universe in same way as the perception we have a women's worth and gay people who are so i was in on it on any illusion that they looked to me because you know i'm john bond and they love black people because they

love me. because i see alex the arc of the black and it's a play about race would be 5 it's advanced and you played well and it's like every gamble that they would have a set piece so i look at racism in football and race and it's actually 2 different ways the reality of race is a psychic just much more hard hitting much more all encompassing and much more serious than it is in football but it all boils down to the fact that the perception we have of your works and for the transactional benefits if you do well for them they will forgive you anything i love you but that doesn't mean they're not unconsciously racist so little friends who love me i say of course you are racially biased not towards me because you love me but what's the average black person in the street or the average woman and that's what we have to change and how much progress has been made in recent years let's look at football 1st and how much is still to do to racist attitudes. well the progress was made in football to 2 aspects of football 1st of all the game. the sport the $1000.00 it match and then

that institution which is from the hierarchy going to be from the management going to be administrators now called the playing course pect if it's making strides in fact a black players were disproportionately represented in football because you have more than 20 percent black players and less than 10 percent black people in the country and in terms of players not be paid the same amount of money when a player back takes a shot the goal posts are moved the no medical small in like a backlash on that black person trying to get a job or trying to get employment up in housing or access to social care the goalposts are move for that the gold goes on move the football as yes when you every now and again in a you know on a saturday or if you go to monkey ball gary you will get racist abuse but in terms of the representation of black people in for all these different forces they're completely equal now from a management perspective that's different than all that managers don't like administrator has no back to the nationals of football has to know that people are nationals of government and all the and all the industries anyway so why should football be any different or why that it is because sport not just football but sports recognize the transactional benefit of having

a black ashley from jackie robinson playing baseball to mohammed ali boxing for america and the olympics they recognize and that doesn't mean they're not racially biased they recognize the transactional benefit of having a black sportsman which will give them gold medals give them money because actually rob is going to hit a home run now that's obvious you say bolt is going to beat anybody want to meet as mike tyson is going to knock you out however what is the transactional benefit of having a black same type intention a man who can be a football manager now to change the perception of his worth nothing's going to change. coming up after the break alex is joined by the editor of black history month 2020 katherine ross joining us in. l.a. look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. must obey the orders given it by human beings except we're such orders that conflict

with the 1st law show your identification we should be very careful about official intelligence at the point of use the. transfer of the shia. areas you know with artificial intelligence will some of the. most protect its own existence which exist. in the wild and the way they work even down with the white. house. so i don't know how i don't think it's the fault of the clothes. on the.

top that call 1800. number one it. sorry sorry 6. welcome back by kristi month has been celebrated in the u.k. every oktober for more than 30 years despite this year's necessity of holding all the events online they have achieved unprecedented publicist a part of the surge in support against racism in the wake obviously of george floyd in minneapolis. alex is joined by 2020 editor of black history month catherine north i'm professor 30th. calf and welcome to the alex salmon show hello thank you very much for having me on you've described this month black history month this year as the as the biggest and best ever been to be in a huge number of events this year yes

a lot of them on line though of necessity so that's been quite different 1st saw we've missed out on the carnival as well mean big crowds in the streets and moving around and we've missed out on you know just doing generally offense where we'd all get together to watch films and things that are about caribbean history or black history generally err if miss the closeness of it and how do you respond to people who say well look you know every month should be a black history month shouldn't special a fictional just one single month for new year do you think that the sort of events of seen in the coverage that was seen has justified the ideal of a specific month for black history no i'm really grateful and i'm old enough to remember when it was history week and then it grew into a history month now we're finding that a month is not long enough simply because there's so many events sun so yeah every month it should be

a pakistan moment and then everybody can get to experience all the good things that are on you know from drummer's films and just social meta to be able to talk about our history and heritage and i just said obviously the vents of forster online in the main for the history month this year do you have a highlight last far to build something unexpected that tom didn't or a grandstand success solver you point to which or which has surprised even yourself terms of how effective it was. yes well we've been on main stream t.v. so that was good but the icing on the cake was so we had to do interview for parliament. for their tours of history and heritage that's there so we took part in that and that was really good there's so much actually in the building in the house of commons in the house of lords that tell our story that i need to

hire out there so that people will do more of those tours and visits in and and then also people will know that we've been here for a very long time and we have the evidence there and we have done a lot that's the point of my museum is to say we have made positive contributions to the k. and have been doing man since a 1600. does it assist in your view that the self-esteem of of young white kids in particular to knaw the influence and contribution that figures in history of made that perhaps has been written note of of conventional history. well i think that history month also is for everyone it's for white people they need to know the caps in their history and to know that we have been here 1st on this really just said that we have and the things that we have done but

yes black children especially need to know that because when they're criticized and have negative things said about them they can point to named individuals and say but look what they did and they can also feel good that if somebody could have achieved that in the times of slavery or just post slavery then these young people of today will be able to make their mark to you as editor of the black history month for 2020 when you have been visiting this year's program you must of consider of the the balance on the one hand of celebrating the chief ment's or blight figures from history and on the other hand prettier context to some of the more unsavory parts of history how did you reconcile that balance as you plan on the sheer celebration but as in all things i do they are trying to point out the positive and some of the negative so the 1st thing that hit us was the covert and for that i was pleased to report that we were on the frontline and doing great

things and we were one of those heroes it was celebrated in the national press and whatever but then i had to point out that. because we haven't had good accommodation because of the low paid jobs we had you know we we suffered disproportionately so after centered all that but then i said and so what are we going to do going forward so i've always left readers with something to think about how they'll change a situation improve or enhance whichever aspect they're going to take away from it everyone talks about the new normal well in the new normal i don't want to go back to being on the margins in the new. well more i want to be able to feel more power and less of this powerlessness that i have so i'm hoping that our black people feeling proud and. regenerated but i'm hopin others who are responsible for

policy and legislation and so on take notice enough is enough we've waited 400 years and it cannot continue and as they can see there are so many of us that are well talented have the experience that we can make a difference to our country it's ours to cuffy rose editor of black history month 2025 q so much for joining me on the other examiner jill thank you. and i delighted to be joined from his home in pelican near edinburgh by professors of jeffrey palmer jeff welcome back to the alex salmon show oh i'm delighted to be back and if you think the key audience for black history month is that for young white kids to understand some of the great figures who for hadn't received acknowledgement that should have been the past on or is it for the white population to come to terms with the fact that black people have made such an

important contribution to history i think you know. british history or scottish history or welsh history or even irish history cannot be discussed without black. involvement and it's just because i think our history and. for whatever reason i think you know i've been very strong about this i think for self-serving reasons. they had some mystical idea that the scots do not want to hear about their history especially if it's not nice and thus they've spent a long time these historians manipulating its condition street to sort of moderate the black bit and i think this is wrong and i spoken as you know all over the country and when i finish my lecture the scottish people of always say to me why

hasn't anybody told us this before and somehow it's as if the scottish people can't treat their own history and i think that's almost insulting but isn't that the case would be from what you've done on the done thus monument and you know people would say i suppose in defense of the average human not just standing philosopher but a rational as well as henry that was a home who's also a fearsome a porter a scottish radicalism as well as be involved in slavery that wouldn't that have been more appropriate to allow the negative views expressed by human to be ventilated to be put into context to be part of the examination of hope sort of say well or get rid of his name altogether which seems. a different tactic to the one used to have the monument it's a salutary lesson you know that in our time in fact if people

like you know academics or politicians or whatever if they go out their way to sort of mis lead the public. and turned people against other people then dundas to me is like you it is used on reason and whatever is fine you know but i remember one of my colleagues once at harriet once university trying to get my support on some issue in the university and he said come on jeff you know we've got to get the spirit of enlightenment and i said well during the enlightment i was cutting for the k. so i'm not impressed by the enlightenment because during that period we had the most what i would call you know the most profitable evil the world as seed don't underestimate it be disestablished nature of

a system and i just feel programs like this help because the university they haven't done their job the schools have not done their jobs and it's probably not the school's fault i think we need government to say to schools get this in your curriculum it's got to be part of the examinable curriculum not nice to do and i think if you can do that we can change this or fall attitude to other people where we treat another human being. as you know a different species that's what you said right people are different species that means we're like cats and dogs and that is so untrue because all human beings are perfectly for each other and that's a definition of a species and therefore the concept of race that you know one races appear to

be other you know where one humanity nothing less. and finally jeff that's probably last week featured the story of founder watson the 1st international football player who led this team to to the oval in london and how much of the old enemies 6 goals to one how do you think if that story had been better of norman better of tauld would have been a role model for young kids in scotland to know that the most successful scotland captain in history was black well you know i think a lot of white scottish people would actually admire that you know i think like it's work but i really believe that in my time in scotland you know a lot of scottish people admired my achievement in a sense that you know i made

a video for the scottish government some time ago which you know is called we are scotland and i think a lot of black kids would would would admire what's and rightly so but i can assure you where we're going to get it is where white people and mine are what's and because he was scottish the point is that when i got my knighted some time ago there was all these you know ladies in test scores wanted to give me hundreds as part of my achievement and they admired it one time to achieve that i don't think my color. had anything to do with it and that's what we want and i think what's an should be taught and should be admired by all scots because he was playing for scotland professor geoffrey palmer thank you very much indeed for joining me once again on the exam and show thank you very much alex see you again. we featured a program on the extraordinary story of onto what's an as

a contribution to restoring this key figure to footballing history the fact that it was necessary it's a case in point that all too often the contribution of black men and women has been very complete or even erased from the record books the importance is office role models of successful focus can have a great impact on how young people look at their own potential opportunities however joined by is surely correct to argue that the task is thought to think of black women and men justice will models in sport music but also in finance business and even politics and in terms of securing equality the key audience for this appreciation is not black but white that out of awareness provides the justification for black history month but for now if i'm alex myself and all that the show is skewed by stacy i mean hope to see you all again next week.

this is a story of women women with troubled histories and complex cold cases you know some of those deadly. awful lives out there. where not. the person that there's a cheesiness and the they are considered the most dangerous of criminals she's in a still. all the law 23 hours of the day tell me that it's not enough punishment it will do women on death row.

terror strikes again in france as a knife man rampages through a basilica in nice leaving 3 dead and several injured the suspect was wounded by police and is now in custody. while up the coast from nice in the iconic cathedral city of none other man a shot dead by police for threatening people with a handgun the french president says his nation will not give in to terror as he increases troop deployment on the streets. come to think if we are attacked once again it is for our values for our teeth for freedom this morning we decided to increase the vigilance everywhere from us to adapt to the terrorist threat.