yes i think it's. more or less in the middle of the range that i expected that and that i think was the man line range of expectations there was a hopeful version for democrats where florida would go for biden and it would basically be over and everybody could stop worrying after 4 years of intense anxiety that's obviously not happening it does look like there is some polling or i don't think we can claim there is none even if you account for the fact that there is always a margin of error it looks skewed in trump's favor so far although even there we need to remember that we've all been told this is early days when it comes to voting vote counting for many of these states which are barely getting started on counting their votes and there was what was called a red mirage predicted and all that said i would say from a democrats' point of view of the fact that it's even plausible that trump would be reelected i think means we're still in the same crisis of division that we were before no matter how this comes out ok we're going to pressure i mean is it

a crisis of the democratic party as well i think you know there's a lot of blame to be shared around here go ahead chris yeah i it indeed i believe that there is i mean from our perspective you know from the very beginning this whole idea of the low out just didn't make will lock sense and i think democrats ran on lot of time i think in my dreams out of florida was never going to go out to democrats and they spent a whole lot of time texas seriously i mean it was just and i think they could have spent better time in playing bases that actually matter and that that's where we find ourselves at this late hour and crimini of it wasn't supposed to be this way here i mean one of the interesting things i find particularly in the liberal media is that not only do they think they demonized. i know he's

a politician that's fair game but it seems to me they demonized his supporters and i think that has a boomerang effect graeme wow i mean you know there's there's some fair criticism to be made of some of his supporters and dirt you know not indorsed by white nationalists and stuff like that but the problem here the democratic party in 2016 they you know cheated in their own primary and then ran a centrist and they lost and so what did they do in 2020 oh they cheated again and their primary and ran centrist and they've had no platform no policy their whole campaign has been trumps bad were better than him so you've got people who were in the middle of a pandemic if someone was saying i have medicare for all i have student debt forgiveness which is something the president could do by executive order 85 percent of all student debt is federal the president just right with a pad i watched me the debates and i felt like i was watching a republican primary i mean it was like well i'm not i'm not going to ban fracking

will need to remind america i'm not for a green new deal there was no difference it was simply united least and i know you pretty well i mean joe biden's assist a liberal republican and that's the problem for the democrats. it's into thinking about the issues here spencer what were the issues here because again it was this very emotional you know i think you do an anxiety and all that and it didn't say and i'm going to blame the republicans on this one too but where are the issues here i didn't see an affirmative case may during this election has been you know i actually disagree with that with out analysis and i write about this in my book and i want to emphasize again we've got to be careful not to read too much into where we are now it's still quite likely it's still very likely that biden is going to win this election or may have a the story 'd is that it's even close as i say you know the the story that this is about policy i just don't think is supported by the data and my view. the issues

that the democratic party faces and those issues will remain whether biden wins or not and i think that there are serious issues because and in important ways i think the democratic party created the opening for trump to exploit a group that actually has more to do with culture than economics most voters don't actually know very much about policy and they don't very care of very much about policy and yet democrats are always arguing about policies they care about the ones that affect them directly if they're working in the fracking industry of course they care about that if they're in agriculture they care about firm issues etc etc but they really are not voting primarily on policy they're always voting on is this a strong leader who cares about people like me and i actually think that's one of joe biden's greatest strengths is unlike hillary clinton who i feel as a classic example of a very highly qualified democratic candidate but not an effective campaigner joe biden is highly qualified and is also an effective campaigner because he's capable of connecting with people on that in my view of leveling i mean on leader cares

about me christopher and those words strong doesn't come to mind when i look at joe biden ok i see a lot of weakness i see a lot of frailty and i don't and i didn't see him as being on tolleson here i mean what it would for me is 2016 and this election and spencer is right it's far from over here but there seems to be a realignment going on here it's working people going to the republican party not to the democratic party just. well and that's that that's absolutely correct and you know again look at as it really played screw the democratic party for my perspective joe biden should have run when hillary clinton rat i mean it's simply too late at this point in my view and so biden runs then he gets how will i have to back a muck and the whole thing is just a side show and from the perspective of strong i don't see him as

a strong decisive leader i simply don't see that what i do see is the democratic party frailing all over the place it's like oh it cme that and all of this discussion for example the progressives and i get all of this kind of something psychologists you know well what about the person who has to go to work every day it seems like you're forgotten about that person and i think that's a major part of what we have here and i think that we find ourselves so close it in chris or you're absolutely right and who would have thought that that the default position for somebody else people would be donald trump ok that's that's nice and really extraordinary and you know if graham i mean i know you well enough here is that you know whatever the outcome is yours are going to be a reckoning within the democratic party because you know it seems to me that in this election there was a lot of voter shaming ok and they did it and then lot of voting shaming was inside

the democratic party against progressive i mean you know nancy pelosi and chuck schumer have more venom for the progressive wing of the party than they do for the g.o.p. go ahead that's absolutely true i mean look the democratic party would rather lose to republicans than what progressives take it over because a progressive take it over their donor class leaves so that's what the democratic party is all about and these you know the neo liberals that shame progressives if they spent as much. after holding the democratic party accountable as they do shaming people that are there would be real change i think you say you have a bond and is likely a chance of reforming the democratic party for with man as you do joining a drug cartel and getting them to stop selling drugs and still be good smoothies. ok so spenser to be in the way what is the positives that you think that white people want to vote for joe biden is it as i said in my introduction is this

and i think that the democratic party is running a referendum on donald trump was that a good idea it was or was that a mistake i actually think they ran a good campaign and let's remember again let's look at what the data actually says not what we you know believe it should say depending on where we sit on the ideological spectrum biden was never even close to being below donald trump in a approval rating and he won the primary fair and square you know if you look at they. actual numbers about where americans sit ideologically 75 percent if i'm remembering right of americans identify themselves as either conservative or moderate and that includes among democrats if you look at democrats you find i think it's i'm reaching back a little ways here so forgive me if these numbers are a little wrong but i think it's something like 12 percent of the population identifies as progressive and when you get down to very progressive you're down to something like 7 percent so you know the claim that if the democratic party would

stop making all these compromises and supposedly selling out to big donors they'd start winning elections with progressive policies i don't think so i think that the strongest case that somebody like a bernie sanders made was more as i say this sense that with bernie you got the feeling like he was authentic and that he would fight for you that he actually cared about you if it was progressive policies why would these people be running to this you know darling of billionaire. he's essentially a puppet of billionaires and he's does has these incredibly regressive policies i maintain it's because democrats tend to be strong on economics their economic policies are usually right and they're usually right for everybody by the way at the bottom top and middle but they're really bad at culture and i believe that what they've done since the sixty's has chased away much of their working class base and not just white working class they have a problem with people of color as well because they do tend to come across as

technocratic and in their heads and frankly kind of arrogant sometimes because they are they are arrogant they feel the people should vote a certain way i mean oh my goodness you might vote differently that's not that's so deep demeaning i there's a there's a i got i believe this actually goes back to our roots in the enlightenment and again this is in my book it's kind of the enlightenment versus the counter in like men and people of the enlightenment you know there's a lot to be said for it of course reason has brought us democracy and science and medicine and all kinds of wonderful things but the fundamental mistake is thinking that reason explains everything and you become hyper rational and you tend to think that people who disagree with you are at best mistaken you know and they need either reeducation her punishment because there's no there's no chance they have a valid point of view as you you know have figured any going to diminish it before we go to the rakish chris or less which are too much voter shaming in the selection go ahead yet there was and in fact it seems to me that the democratic party learned

nothing from hillary clinton's basket of the portables it's like the basket of the corals on steroids and in fact if as spencer said these are the things that the democrat party are for they haven't articulated i mean it just has been a bunch of blah blah blah a bunch of quote a shame it's been all of those things and as a result of that it is shooting themselves in the proverbial. ok i'll let you know they're going to go to a short break and after that short break and you know discussion on the election state. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports this list i'm showbusiness i'll see you then.

for all those drone.

dares things. we dare to ask. welcome back to cross talk or all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the ongoing counting of ballots in the election. let's go back to cram in los angeles ok let's talk about this face off here i mean why would you want to. a trump in my opinion. in 2016 ran as a populist but he governed as

a jet jeb bush ok or mitt romney essentially that's what he did ok now on the campaign trail he reverts to his populist. rhetoric here why he wants to face off here i can see how a moderate democrat can win against a populist on the right ok it's a it's a mismatch here and it doesn't create a real choice again if the. democrats have got a little bit more aggressive and i'm saying you know bernie you know per se here but then you get much more of a of a choice here saying that nothing fundamentally will change in the middle of the pandemic in the worst economic turndown since the great depression always had a winning message. it's not i mean that's just the very it's not a winning message i mean this is just. you know we've got fracking with science or fracking without science i'm not taking into account. you know spencer brought up the fracking jobs while you know oklahoma and texas have record earthquakes as

a result the fracking and you have people with contaminated water who would gladly go get a job working in the green industry and i just wow do not agree that joe biden won despair and square when you have people to judge your shadow apts you've got double digit exit poll wins for bernie sanders and then somehow joe biden wins all in in precincts that use the touch screen voting which has been proven since 2006 to be hackable the un itself said the it's not it doesn't it reeks of a rigged election so you've got all of these populist policies people can relate to medicare for all i need free health care i need $15.00 an hour i needs an educated man to. do a course those are those are populist issues truck ran on a populist platform and in 2016 he's backed off the populism a little in this campaign but real populism especially when you have people in food lines waiting for food because of this pandemic you have people going how my going to pay for anything you have all industries wiped out and joe biden says now is not

the time for a revolution that's right revolutions always happen where everybody's bad never things taken care of bats what revolutions happen so this we're running and their whole campaign hey they had republicans in the democratic convention joe biden has said that he's probably going to have republicans they went after suburban republicans rather than all of the people that have been abandoned the 100000000 people that don't vote because they feel like nice to utterly corrupt parties that are both for war and banking and gore profit health care and prisons and on down the line don't represent them at all and you watch the debates and there's only blake these handful of issues that they're different and had you ran an actual populous progressive they would have crushed trump you could have gone after his actual selling out of his own campaign. it is $1.00 trillion $1.30 more and we did get a touch of that when biden announced his. america 1st you know economic policy and

even they trumpet ministration was they were a bit upset about that because they thought we were stealing one of our cards well i mean that card is played for anyone that wants to use it ok unfortunately even trump didn't do it here spencer answer some of those things that we just heard from graham because again you know in this nothing will fundamentally change and then you read in the wall street journal that a potential biking ministration will have republicans in the cabinet ok i mean when it's when it's absolutely saying i mean it and nothing will fundamentally change when half the country is looking for what kind of message is that and why would anyone think it would be a winning message well you know one of the tests of an argument is could you make exactly the opposite assertions with equal passion and you could but in both cases you have to be able to actually back it up with information and link that with logic to connect a valid argument i just disagree with that whole analysis biden did run on

a pandemic platform for example he said he is going to pay attention to the science and the obama administration left that science in a detailed plan for the trumpet ministration and the reason we've had among the very worst deaths per capita rates in the world out of 168 nations tracked by johns hopkins is because trump ignored the science that's a pretty clear message on it and it in trying to any effect of this in the in the accomplice in hospitals in new york is that trumps all these are anecdotes that come out but again you have to look at what the actual data says and you just can't argue with the data our performance on the pandemic is terrible and it's and it's obvious why it's terrible this is when biden was going to be awesome to me and pretty clear distinction is this campaign about coded that was certainly want to. because when you have a life or death issue you know you've got i've pretty much addressed the question of how are you going to protect americans that's the president's responsibility number one closely related to that is the economy which is usually up there it's

usually it's basically security and the economy are the top 2 issues and that's what we see with covais down the economy so i think biden has had a strong message and again let me remind everybody it's still much more likely that biden's going to win this election and the middle is. now that said i agree it should not be close in terms of this story about throwing the primaries in favor of biden that also is in my book and. this is a case in point i would say of people on the left not actually exercising empathy towards the people they're trying to talk to and instead telling them what they should believe or what they should think biden won largely because of the black people of south carolina not because of some shadowy d.n.c. conspiracy it's a tremendous act of disrespect to the stalwarts of the democratic party and the african-american community led by jim cliburn to say that this was some conspiracy

when it's just clearly that is not what happened how do you explain all of it hurricane allen well you know i don't really know you can always find a conspiracy theory that will explain anything or you can look at the preponderance of the data and it kind of how do you explain it not even if i am telling black people that they had any role in this it's not a conspiracy to make that claim or supposition that iraq obama made a few call phone calls and. there's no evidence that he hurt or send i mean i tell you how imminent already did and look i mean i know some of the people involved they don't act like they don't do that stuff and again you have to dismiss the the african-american community of south carolina and many other states and when the evidence is staring you in the face that they may have a different. so you're saying hold on spencer you're saying that the u.n. discounted african-american votes when they said this had all the earmarks of a rigged election they did not and you have to you have to actually have evidence

again you can come up with a conspiracy that will explain anything but you have to have evidence to back it up and if you've got you know clear documented evidence that gives you a perfect explanation for what happened versus putting dots together the don't really connect that don't actually have solid evidence of i'll take the former ok well you know did that one of the explain we was brought up in the 1st part of the program here is identity politics and won't is them in all of that. graham is that working here because again it seems to me that there is such a realignment i mean i'm going to say the forbidden word in turin this election that nobody likes to use and it's about class it's about class and the democrats don't like that they used to and these 2 women on it ok and they have left that lane wide open and the trying to send a terrible job with it but didn't lift it to him and i think if he wins it could be because of that ahead graham yeah well americans are in class warfare but were divided distracted and afraid thanks to you know the oligarchy that run the the

media and these 2 utterly corrupt parties and does just any time someone says here is evidence that you're automatically called a conspiracy theorist as part of the class warfare that worry and and it's it's they're realizing through all that george boyd protester had people of all ethnicities in the streets protesting together and then they had to kind of keep it divided and be woke as m. isn't working they just m.-s. n.b.c. last week interviewed 3 black women at the end of it land and all 3 of them are like i'm not voting for biden and they just assume we were going to vote for kamel of war not because you know she put 100000 black men behind bars as attorney general joe biden wrote in 1994 crime bill these are actual facts that people are like hey we want real justice reform and people that get money from the private prison industry in the democratic and republican party they don't they don't speak to us. you know spencer when it was asked both of you i mean there is there is

fear. that there could be violence if trump is to prevail here and again it's where early hours into this this could be a couple days i mean it depending on what goes on in pennsylvania but there's been talk of that are you worried about that spencer that there's going to be violence in the streets and looting i mean it's been the year of of mostly peaceful protests what do you what are you concerned about. i am somewhat worried and the just before i get into that i would like to point to i think it's 93 percent african-american support for democrats again you just run into numbers here. so i think that there's not going to be the total breakdown of society like we can see in other countries where you have mass scale rioting in the streets or a military coup or anything like that however a great deal of damage can be done by a relatively small number of people as terrorists have shown all over the world and one of the under covered stories i mean there are journalists covering up at the

administration is doing everything it can to downplay it and develop a much more sexy counter narrative is that by far domestic terrorism is committed by right wing white supremacists in this country and any other form of domestic terrorism is dwarfed by comparison to the ones that did all of the looting during the summer because these are small group of women so even there we run into numbers our study was recently done i think again it was the number was something like 93 percent of those protests were peaceful and where there were violent incidents they were often initiated by other people counter protesters or in some cases law enforcement this is also case where this there's this pervasive problem on the left of thinking you know what's good for people whether that's people on the left talking to trump supporters and i agree that is a problem it comes down even to word choice and not realizing that you come across as kind of severe even when you don't. intend to just play word choice also with

the with the protests in black neighborhoods very often what happens is you have the people who live in the neighborhood and what they want is better policing but then you have people from outside the community coming in saying we want no police or we want to tear down society and how the anarchist revolution or whatever it is and they're just parachuting in and they can get to go home at night but they leave a blank police and you have to live in that point we agree on that when you're running out of time and i'm really glad spencer that you're willing to criticize the. professional clowns ok because i think that's what's not to the democrats last 20 seconds got you grant burnett. well you know there's no real opposition party in this country and we need one you know in other countries there's for 5 driving parties an opposition we have 2 parties that are pretty well in line with wall street with big pharmaceutical companies with the military industrial complex and de de their dear separate on a couple issues so we really need an opposition party that is out of it

a great he more choice or i want to thank spencer and graham who want to thank our viewers there watching as you're are easy next time remember. is you'll be dia a reflection of reality. in the world transformed. what will make you feel safe from. tyson nation will community. are you going the right way or are you being so. direct. what is true what is faith. in a world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the

depths. or a made in the shallowness. of the little while the way all of you and down with the white house. so far have i don't think it's the fault of the cloth the myth of the devil. that come. along. one of. a. 6 sputnik 5 has the world. just like its namesake the original.

the 1st draft of a to leave. orbit the world's sidewall many questions remain unanswered about russia's new vaccine the authorities are confident enough to go forward with mass production. what the assembly states please we may. be able to know because no one. really read the received. intro's preliminary requests. 1000000000 those are all fresh in fact she. writes this is happening. will go on the reaction has been exactly the same as it was waved by. joe joe. the world reaction is made of green cheese.

but. some control from middle. of the night muslim are very hardworking people who want to get ahead that either have some some health issues or have some of how district about luck a full time job won't always pay for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get you a victim to gun point. if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. you better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted to anyone that's homeless is treated like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the case so you know it is to be in the world's richest country.

and donald trump cries foul fighting a little suit to hold the vote counting in michigan in pennsylvania on drugs and recounts in wisconsin team by 2 meanwhile claims of victory in 2 states creeping closer towards the white house. forward out from the knife edge election could potentially drag on the for days or even longer with neither side winning to concede. so we'll be going to the u.s. supreme court we want to. voting just. as you're prepared for any effort the republicans make in any court and you. to advance the absurd theory that the president is.