or in the south china sea in anti capitalist demonstrations well that it was false as you so bought from lawsuits our own experience has been correct let's say that in 2009 because of the 10 and everybody felt the pressure of getting a good job was there and we wanted to finance it and i personally found out very elsie's to it very very quickly come around last slightly longer but what it did spot was this 1st script rewrites recite right let's get it which was a really poor attempt to try to capture the role that it was missed by me clearance experience sitting at room about how much yet the key that unlocked it was writing from the experience of people who were at the very very bottom i think it was this because he was sure about this world was so deals that people didn't know what we thought interesting i found interesting about that well is that it's never really been seen through the prism of people who have at least our very into if 1st i'm.

gradually iraq's capital and while it's my pleasure to congratulate you on this place london and want to stay here starts now we've seen your vouches for you the impression that you make on clients we'll all be evaluated in 6 months time on risk day that's reduction in force you'll be standing in this room telling all of us why you should be hired permanently to your desk and make he was making films conrad you directed hamlet university so clearly before you went in the city tensions were or were under the plane but you are very conscious of not trying to glamorize as has been done in the ninety's arguably the city of london which actually is in the news for making money out of covert arguably you didn't want to glamorize it make it set up of its to be perfectly honest we didn't have a very mean mikie sort of out of the outside were very clear that we didn't want to make it so ideologically driven show about what necessarily our kind of take on that world was i think what we've chosen to book on the on screen. because i get

away from what me and sort of think about it but i think it's pretty in bedded in the subtext of the shower rather than the text of the show. and you know i think. what we're really interested in really as writers the kind of a lot it's this this place still oh not 6008 search for a certain type of person a certain type of graduate but as mickey says it's really you know it's a super inside real world and for a lot of people it's a real black box but we thought if we could sort of crack it open to the president these 5 characters who are all in some way i have a socio economically or gender wise or racially that you know that's some variant of as an outsider we thought it out give a kind of a kind of universality to it to people could appreciate people who worked on it some people who didn't what lots. of opinions are sketchy but someone close to god is very upset i'm sorry if you lost but if you do that here but don't use the very small one of those new you know like regional not club security thank you security thank you and we just hope we just do that for you to clean our stuff on your face

you see what you've done that is actually arrest a billboard to how go he well i want to get back to intersection out in class in a 2nd but. time and time again we don't want to give away the plot the i hear optics comes out it seems that your fictional investment bank be a point obsessed by what it looks like to the outside presumably because the reputation of bankers is a bore because the show a contemporary show that sort of set possibly even the word last 3 years but what we've been trying to do in the 1st season there are bits in a season which people could suggest that maybe slightly sensationalized and that's true and you know there are things that i'm practices that happen to show or it's probably when we have to get away with in today's lot of climate but what we try to do in the series has basically dramatized that culture share from what you were talking about as an individual isn't a collective it's a collective as well you're sort of thinking about the situation thinking about yourself that your own bottom line and the idea that you know it's pushing

a gray young graduates the point where some of that mental have. the house has been strained to their physical health is drained it's no longer acceptable so i feel like. wife still sort of you know it is unlikely to say those things are done purely future upticks but i feel that you know it would be probably a disservice to the industry it is just that only do something so i think there probably is probably a little bit more than olivia and more from trying to see that space go through more i think they realize they need sort of a comparative reaction changed and clearly conrad the brain drain element of the attraction of financial institutions because they pay more money over the dreams and ambitions of young people or what they really want to get out of life make clear on the current through the plot i think the truth is i mean the thing that i've always found interesting about this one will speak into a mickey talked about as well in terms of cultural change and right in these institutions bringing themselves up with the kind of the work climate in 2020 round

you know. attitudes to gender sort of toxicity and bullying all that sort of stuff you know i think you know as much as these institutions change there's still this inherent. contradiction in them which is basically you know we might be you know all of that itch to talk sobbing america talk racine about being more and more of a collectivist saying we're all calling us and direction but the metrics and evaluation is still very much the same as a bad debate and so you sort of every february january your boss takes you to run the slides member life and you get renumerated based on your comments appealing americal thing so i think i mean that kind of practice well obviously that's been also as a reformer on but it didn't stop the kind of back that's that kind of the kind of opium effect that bad like of like living in living that paycheck so i still think really applies to all these people who work in this industry and making the script is so brilliantly observed you use america terms like work capitalism and spin that reagan fatter thread through and they're important to i

mean arguably it has been written before the idea of banter in the office and identity politics very important to you that the issue of class was there in addition to race and sex discrimination. i think so i think it's something that just so presidents and presidents in british society and it would be innocent in doing a disservice to the show if we hadn't touched on it and i feel like and it may encourage it was attracted to that question about you know what makes us from what makes something from the from is a class and whether money can be something that's or stimulates you and pushes you into classes of where you were born and and also there's a reality of the american attitude to a class for us the british one and whether the american see the possible to give money in your 'd job and your sort of material stuff in the british one which is basically about where you were school and where you played and your parents what did you read younger a fair job fair the least amount of applicants the year before. it's

a marginal gain about marginal gangs fighting on the back don't. i play thank you to to thank you so much this was just christ and margaret thatcher who went east on the ones recently which here is a carpenter and conrad is it a particularly exciting thing to write and a lot of fun to write given american reviews of talk about news room and other comparisons but he have things as mundane as buying lunch at the office right up to a possible war between the u.s. and the south china sea and not conscious about the human casualties of that just conscious of making money out of the war yeah no totally i mean look the cornerstone for the show came in mickey was always. given the fact that we came from that world we thought we were just it would be to not render as accurately as he could only as much that's it this is we could then it wouldn't it wouldn't be true it's the drama of it i mean for us i mean i don't know at this is just personal taste i know if i said mickey as well as my partner is like we find as

much drama in the kind of smaller moments and the kind of you know whatever it can be as mundane as getting you know going to the coffee room or you know a sort of happenstance encounter with someone in an elevator but those that those little small moments a drummer a kind of office life is all about and we wanted you know there's something inherently true about the watchability of people at work you know that's like good workplace dramas always seem to work and for us as in terms of writers we were always very keen to honor those smaller moments in the drama as well because i mean you know all of our favorite workplace dramas are all about the kind of the breath of the office and what it actually feels like to be in those places and we tried in terms of everything from the there in the sound design to the set the production design mimic you are obsessed with the small details like if you look at people's desks in the show you'll find that you know what they happen to have on the desk is like speaks the but they're biography a lot so for us that the show kind of lived and died by its leaves us and we were very militant about all of us. and making how does it differ from when you were in the city presumably your colleagues didn't sit around they want to kill or are

talking about power clubs. and coersion and class war. while you're having lunch i mean i would say the very boring part the bank that got the bank the bit that wrecked austin heritage to his work unless they were going to expend. sitting in front of a computer doing excel spreadsheets and power presentations as it was getting very very tight in the process interesting read all other other power drinks are available. i'll let you talk about what mickey was just saying but we do have a chance or the exchequer recent act who used to work in to vestment bank bailed out goldman sachs i mean if someone watches your show and then thinks about the different things recent ag is doing to help the economy how can we fit in the idea that he may have worked in the kind of depicted in this show well i don't i mean i

think i think what the show manages to do and i hope that just as to not trade in stereotypes i think you know a lot of the a lot of the depictions of this well classically on some level get a lot of it right in terms of the level of sort of sociopathy and psychopathy at the top of these institutions i mean i'm not going to states that just the states is what tends to beat on screen quite a lot while we were hoping to do is show 5 pretty flawed pretty human pretty vulnerable characters who you know very very young very impressionistic and show on some level how they vary so it's these places that on some levels of these places are very corrosive to the light as i said before me mickey would never really interested in writing something that extracts about why banking never seen anyone for their i.q. want to see before. how many of these have you had 94 new york far here and a state. where you hear them well it's not a very political answer but. i think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who

hire private tutors. i'm here on my own yeah i mean i shouldn't if you are shouldn't think this is a deep academic tome on the path. that in fact there there are a lot of of course a lot of drugs involved in the program i don't know whether you'd say that that was accurate i have only seen 4 of the episodes haven't seen the other 4 do you think the bank has understood while they were taking all the cocaine that the supply of drugs is about supplied the mondavi drug. smuggling let alone foreign policy of the drugs market why there irony there hanging over the entire plot i think. people generally have to get appropriately. so i think i'm there is there was an irony about where this is where you said i think the memory. to get off.

i did i always had the thought that if you if you took it could be some sort of weird reality experiment where you put all the people who were brutalized by the supply chain of cocaine into the room with the people who happen to be doing the drug but that still be that but it still end up doing it and i would think they probably wouldn't. make it down conrad kay thank you after the break from bankers to assassins we ask the doctor who inspired killing eve about the making of a psychopath and if those deemed psychopaths by society are really just a product of it all is a more coming up in part 2 of going on the ground. there are tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to the person who falsely fast actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior once

a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that isn't. well the pandemic no certainly no borders just blind to nationalities. as americans we don't come with the we don't have the facts in the whole world needs to be. judged. come in every crisis with this system to modern times we can do better we should. everyone is contributing way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges create the response has been much so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

it was mostly wolf where's. your. true. love a boy who was. sure. i can board across the. bench to put a gun murder. you've got to go with us because all of these to do just about because those stories could be game we will see in the movie confused with it would seem the most news but it's the most insidious some of put it in your speech come home and use the of. the 20th century was thing in a revolution the great depression and world war the 21st century of mental illness . those aren't my words that's what surfaced some psychiatry's to tell us the only question is should we accept it as a fact. welcome

back in part one we heard from to form a bank has turned t.v. writers who talked about psychopaths in the city of london that featured in the new show industry another t.v. show that draws from reality for its psychopath is killing eve and the dr behind its lead character villain l. dr mark freestone is catalogued not only psychopathy and i finance famously depicted in american psycho but those who have been crushed by a society that arguably created them his new book making a psychopath is out now and he joins me from london mark welcome to going underground so what is a psychopath the great american writer norman mailer equated it psychopathic rebellion against totalitarianism. that's an interesting definition i think such a path research has moved on a lot since since the sixty's and seventy's and now we understand that psychopaths

have a problem of the aryan that brain means that they don't really process in motion and it courtney brisk in the same way as other people do they they don't realize it motions other people they can't see things like sadness or fear and they can't really make very good judgments about decisions that might be not in their best interest for example so they tend to be people who take very high risk situations that they do in everyday life but that's financially hardest decisions or high risk relationships drug taking things like that and that's because we think of as i said some folks who are in the bright well given you're famous for killing eve isn't it a bit much the in the very book you've written you say media portrayals of psychopathy are often one dimensional when you've got to give credit to feed you all a bridge in that killing a team for bringing me on to try and make a sock of half you is at least superficially believe it because they have the traits that accurately represented in things like the psychopathy checklist the psychopath test we can applies ability but but. but she also has

a more interesting backstory as well. she's a child. from a broken family and she's in syria a lifestyle that really pushes her to take the kind of risks that we could pass off very happy to take regardless of the consequences so i thought it was really interesting that they wanted to make such a plausible character. even though maybe some of it is a little bit. like to call it unicorn in that the unicorn features is not someone that you'd be very lucky to meet in your life ever write it you know hopefully not a you go through case studies i might ask you about a couple of them in a 2nd but you do quote robert have one of the founders of psychiatry segment out of the talks about psychopaths he said the modern corporation has the characteristics of a psychopathic way particularly interested in the individual psychopaths not the systemic ones because of course famously it's been said that if you're in

a psychopathic society it's normal to be a psychopath the outliers are the non psych about well that's that's true i think my interest has been i i was a sociologist working with. patients in high secure also those prisons that's how i came into this line of words and i was a supposed quite struck by how bad we were just society and they bring out what you do with something that's. not necessarily kid approach but provided with environments within which they have any realistic child's flourishing because if somebody isn't very good at making decisions or breaking inferences about other people's emotions and they are very good at deciding what it is a good level of risk is taking you know financially. risky decisions or deciding what to do with their lives they are counted out in a loose end and we always try some of us like to say that you know it's one of the last 5 years that we don't particularly want psychopaths around us in our society and so when we think about what are we going to do with these people we need to

have a solution for those people who committed crimes provides them with a way back into society but at the same time we know that psychopaths who comes here chris and it comes through the mental health system tend to reoffend even if they've been rehabilitated so whatever it is that we're doing the isn't really working i never really thought that was good enough i think that we needed support a lot harder to try to create environments with a pass connection to have a meaningful and productive life and the book is kind of a buy a house just the sight of past quite a quite regular basis something. and what proportion of psychopaths in society maybe maybe around this team making going underground oh he talking about one of the scale of this so it ensured the general population i think probably about one in every 500 to one in every 1000 people would meet the criteria for a robot has psychopathy checklist which is quite a high payoff and most people in the population in the u.k.

have no psychopathic traits so they might have maybe one trait and that could include things like being a bit impulsive or taking risks or being dependent on other people being sexually promiscuous so it's not necessarily the case that you have the core features of cycle but if we understand that somebody who's coming in manipur this if you used grandiose who used. remorseless and callous in that the way that they treat other people so it's not common to meet psychopaths in the general population it's very unlikely that you work with them although we know also from bob has research that there are some professions such as stockbroking and chief executive officers that tend to attract psychopaths more than others but it's not likely you'd meet one in your you every day life whereas in prison we know that up to 15 percent of the prison population would be diagnosable it's like a passer very different environment to work and i want to get to that class dimension in a 2nd be you don't think there's a danger then of before you get into the case studies of physiologically

understanding psychopathy you mentioned the brain the make dilla the prefrontal cortex big pharma loves things like that they can give medicine for you firmly on the side of the physiological element of psychopathy rather than the class and societal. context of like a psychopathy i'm not i know i think the evidence for. the problems if only one in a 1000 people is a psychopath you haven't got a big sample to understand. now people with this diagnosis fit into society you don't really understand what the needs of the research evidence is for the way that psychopathic brains operate is pretty good we have some genetic evidence some genetic research as well that suggests that as a assess it genes that seem to be linked to the way that people develop as children and that some of those children with those genes will then go on to becomes our past but not all of them and i think as

a surprise it's more interesting to think about well. if there are these all side of us have these brain wiring to function what they all in prison on they all criminals and there's a an interesting case a professor jim fallon he's ever such a psychological researcher and united states as part of a study scan his own brain using a technique called positron emission tomography pet scan and he didn't realize what he done but he'd actually put its own brain scan is a sample he was looking at and he realized that this person who scanners are can have very hard if all of the physiological in the case of psychopathy but he left the a normal life and this was his brain he did the normal life he had a successful career in research and yet he had all of that is logical characteristics of a psychopath so it's not the case that everyone with these deficiencies ends up in prison and some of them can be quite successful but we do know that yet the majority of psychopaths that we encounter are in prison service is mental health

services and usually that for quite a serious crime and that effort quite a long time as well i don't be flippant but tell me about your favorite of the 7 cases i mean they're all quite grim but maybe just briefly tell us about one of them i suppose there's a character in the book called tony who is the closest to a successful psychopath he's had a very successful career but unfortunately career is based almost entirely on the conning and defrauding the people around him and he has a very sort of his father was a very successful con man who was never as far as we know trying to get it and he was. he was a sort of international playboy he used the proceeds of his cons to fund its very lavish lifestyle and tony tries to do this but he's simply not quite as good and he also has some quite deviant sexual tastes involving power control and. and sadism and his eventual crime he's cool side abusing

a sex worker quite seriously so he sort of you know he. he plays the lifestyle of the he's cool sad and the interesting part of this is that the reason he's cool is not because he committed the crime but rather because he pays the sex worker the check from his own personal bank that he sets up with the proceeds of the various other fortune activities he's engaged in the past few years and then he's forgotten to top the bank account up with funds so when sex worker goes to cash that check it bank says and at that point the police are involved and the terrifying thing about that case is that it shows that this is the tip of an iceberg that there are men like tony who regularly commit crimes but not all of them a detective maybe this speaks to the idea of a brief press analysis american psycho that some people a supported by network were a sort of social consensus that people who appear outwardly successful there have to be accountable for their actions as some other of us to and i think tony was

just such a fascinating character because he managed to maintain such composure and sort of poise all the way through his incarceration he never really gave away that he was involved in a sort of very unpleasant sleezy crime and you always saw himself a superior to the rest of us working with him so he i think personally he remains one of the most interesting cases in that for me anyway well how ironic then the side from what you say in the book about if you're eating mental health provision as to his networking in his own community and ultimately community and that sense of belonging you believe could be a therapeutic approach to rehabilitation for psych about absolutely that's a really good point i think that psychopaths we know don't really respond to punishment and it's interesting that the response of most of our societies to a psychopathic who breaks the law is to punish them and punishment quite severely and in the united states whether you score high on the psychopathy checklist or not

can be a bear of whether you are. capital punishment or whether you are excluded from capital punishment depending on the the jurisdiction you're in so i think if we were if we were able to focus on what is the role of somebody with these traits in society because in i think there's. a good theory a bias i think it's more so she passed by and merican psychological john lives the way he proposes that there's a gene that these people carry that goes into very very effective in situations where not taking other people's emotional needs into account is actually quite effective and uses the example of hunter gathering societies or vikings where being a warrior who's remorseless and relentless in your pursuit if you are desires and goals is actually quite helpful but in a modern society we're all supposed to be networked in part of social groupings around each other being a sort of lone wolf who's not accountable and doesn't really think about other people's emotional responses to our actions isn't very valuable and actually gets

you labeled as a psychopath and a deviant and a widow but if we were able to find a way to sort of encouraged cycle pass through a process that rather than punishment encouragement to try to get in to identify more pro-social girls and to understand how other people will respond to that more unappealing social traits that site that sort of callous behaviors with people i think that would be a very productive way forward and there's been some work in creating social microcosms in the prison service and the forensic mental health services the high seat here mental hospitals in the u.k. to try to create the social life because web site or past work with other psychopaths and stuff to try and create a community a therapeutic community that allows them to explore more preprocessor girls than the offending that they've been so used to in their lives so that's promising i'm none of it's got great evidence yet but nothing as far as like a pass go you get does really the ultimate refund thank you and making is like

about my journey and if i'm dangerous my that now that i'm the show. we'll be back on wednesday until then never miss an interview by subscribing to our channel on you tube and joining the on the ground on twitter facebook instagram and sometimes . you get. mighty claims victory but what about those who voted for trump well they say now not my president is your facing another wave of terrorism is me a liberal ideology chilling signs of exhaustion.

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