thank you securing thank you can we just hope we just do that for you to clean the house up for your pay as you see what you've done that is actually already a billboard to how go he well i want to get back to intersection out in class in a 2nd but. time and time again we don't want to give away the plot the i hear optics comes out it seems that your fictional investment bank be a point obsessed by what it looks like to the outside presumably because the reputation of bankers isn't poor because the show contemporary sharon sort of set possibly even the world last 3 years but what we've been trying to do in the 1st season there a bit in a season which people could suggest that maybe slightly sensationalized in the street and you know there are things that i'm practices that have been the sheriff probably wouldn't have to get away with in today's lot in climate but what we've tried to do in a series has basically dramatized that culture share from what you were talking about as an individual isn't a collective that's a collective as a right you're sort of thinking about the situation think about yourself that your own bottom line and the idea that you know it's pushing agree young graduates the

point where some of that mental have health is being strained to their physical health is drained it's no longer acceptable so i feel like the. wife still sort of you know it is an odd way to say those things have done jury future upticks but i feel that you know it would be probably a disservice to the industry it's just it's only due diligence i think there probably is probably a little bit more than all the other more from trouble she's at the base go through more i think they realize they need sort of a comparative and and 'd reaction change and clearly conrad the brain drain element of the attraction of financial institutions because they pay more money over the dreams and ambitions of young people what they really want to get out of life make clear on the current through the plot i think the truth is i mean the thing that i've always found interesting about this moment speaking to a mickey talked about as well in terms of cultural change and right in these institutions bringing themselves up with. the kind of the work one in 2020 around

you know. that's just agenda sort of toxicity bullying all that sort of stuff you know i think you know as much as these institutions to change there's still this inherent. contradiction in them which is basically you know we might be a little village to talk serving america talk are saying about being more and more of a collectivist thing we're opening up and direction but the metrics in evaluation is still very much the same as i've ever been was a sort of every february january it was taken to run a 5 member law and you get renumerated based on your performance appearing americal correct so i think i mean that kind of practice well obviously there's been all sorts of reform around bonuses and stuff but the kind of that's that company kind of the opium the fact that like i like living in living flat paycheck i still think really applies to all these people who work in the industry and. the script is so brilliantly observed you use ameritech terms like work capitalism and

the spin that reagan fach a thread through and very important too i mean. it has been written before the idea of banter in the office and identity politics very important here the issue of classes in addition to race and sex discrimination. i think so i think it's something that just so presidents and presidents in british society and it would be in 'd this i'm doing a disservice to the show if we hadn't touched on that and i feel like and it may encourage it was attracted to that question about you know what makes you have sort of what makes someone from evil is a class and whether money can be something that's or stimulates human appreciate it because of where you were born and and also there's a reality of the american attitude to a class for us the british one and whether the american see the possible to give money in your 'd job and your sort of material stuff in the british one which is basically about where you are schools where you played and your parents why did you read younger for drugs for the least amount of applicants the year before. a

marginal gain about marginal gangs passing on the back don't. i play thank you to do you think is and i want this. to just christ margaret thatcher who went east on the ones recently where here is a carpenter and conrad is it a particularly exciting thing to write and a lot of fun to write given american reviews of talk about news room and other comparisons but he have things as mundane as buying lunch at the office right up to a possible war between the u.s. and the south china sea and not conscious about the human casualties of just conscious of making money out of the war yeah no totally i mean look the cornerstone for the show came in mickey was always. given the fact that we came from that world we thought we were just it would be to not render as accurately as he could only as much that's what this is we could and it wouldn't it wouldn't be true it's the drama of it i mean for us i mean i don't know at this is just

personal taste i know a place and it is always my partner is like we find as much drama in the kind of small and moments and the kind of you know whatever it can be as mundane as getting you know going to the coffee room or you know sort of happenstance encounter with someone in an elevator but those that those little small moments the drummer kind of office life is all about and we want it you know there's something inherently true about the watchability of people at work you know that's like good workplace dramas always seem to work and for us as in terms of writers we were always very keen to honor those smaller moments in the drama as well because i mean you know all of our favorite work place dramas are all about the kind of the breath of the office and what it actually feels like to be in those places and we tried in terms of everything from that there in the sound design to the set the production design mimic you are obsessed with the small details like if you look at people's desks in the show you'll find that you know what they happen to have on a desk is like speaks the but they're biography a lot so for us that the show kind of lived and died by its leaves us and we were very militant about all of us. and making how does it differ from when you were in

the city presumably your colleagues didn't sit around they want to kill or are talking about power clubs. and coersion and class war. while you're having lunch i mean i would say the very boring part the bank got the bank the but the austin area to work unless they were going to expend their time. sitting in front of a computer doing excel spreadsheets and power presentations as it was getting very very tight in the process interesting read all other other power drinks are available. how late you talk about what mickey was just saying but we do have a chance or the exchequer recent act who used to work in vestment bank bailed out goldman sachs i mean if someone watches your show and then thinks about the different things recent is doing to help the economy how can we fit in the idea that he may have worked in the kind of millionaire depicted in this show well i

don't i mean i think i think what the show manages to do and i hope that just as to not trade in stereotypes i think you know a lot of the a lot of the depictions of this well classically on some level get a lot of it right in terms of the level of sort sociopathy and psychopathy at the top of these institutions i mean i'm not going to states that just the states is what tends to be put on screen quite a lot while we were hoping to do is show 5 pretty flawed pretty human pretty vulnerable characters who you know very very young very impressionistic and show on some level how they vary so it's these places that on some levels of these places are very corrosive to the light as i said before mimic you would never really interested in writing something that extracts about why banking never seen anyone for their i.q. want to see before. how many of these have you had 94 new york far here and ask. where you hear them well it's not a very political answer but. i think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who

hire private tutors. i'm here. yeah i mean i shouldn't if you are shouldn't think this is a deep academic tome on the path. that in fact there are there are a lot of of course a lot of drugs involved in the program don't know whether you'd say that that was accurate i have only seen 4 of the episodes haven't seen the other 4 do you think the bank has understood while they were taking all the cocaine that the supply of drugs is about supplied the mondavi drug. smuggling let alone foreign policy of the drugs market a wider irony there hanging over the entire plot i think. people generally have seen the problems and. so i think there is a risk an irony about where these things come. and i think the memory. to get off.

i did have i always had the thought that if you if you took it could be some sort of weird reality experiment where you put all the people who were brutalized by the supply chain of cocaine into the room with the people who happened to be doing the drug but that still be that but it still end up doing it and i would think that probably wouldn't. make it down conrad kay thank you out on the break from bankers to assassins we ask the doctor who inspired killing eve about the making of a psychopath and if those deemed psychopaths by society are really just a product of it all this and more coming up in part 2 of going on the ground. fighting claims they treat but what about those who get into trouble when they say now not my president i mean is your of these things another way to terrorism neo

liberal ideology chilling sign of things. childs seemed wrong off what all were all just all. the world is yet to shape out these days because the advocate and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. the impersonal soup we wish to believe sure but. the truth do you love a boy who was you who are sure to keep the core idea on board a contingent question emerged that would have been murdered by. you to go with us

because all of those who do use the word because those stories could mean game we will see in the movie confused with it would seem the most news but is the most severe some of what is in your speech come off the news the of. the 20th century was thing in or of revolution the great depression and world wars the 21st is the century of mental illness. those aren't my words that's what surfaced some psychologists tell us the only question is should we accept it as a fact. or no. welcome back in part one we heard from to form a bank has turned t.v. writers who talked about psychopaths in the city of london that featured in the new show industry another t.v. show that draws from reality for its psychopath is killing eve and the dr behind its lead character villain l. dr mark freestone is catalogued not only faculty of the and i financed famously

depicted in american psycho but those who have been crushed by a society that arguably created them his new book making a psychopath is out now and he joins me from london mark welcome to going underground so what is a psychopath the great american writer norman mailer equated it psychopathic rebellion against totalitarianism. that's an interesting definition i think such a path research has moved on a lot since since the sixty's and seventy's and now we understand that psychopaths have a problem with the aryan that brain means that they don't really process in motion and importantly risk in the same way as other people do they don't realize it motions other people they can't see things like sadness or fear and they can't really make very good judgments about decisions that might be not in their best interest rates so they tend to be if you take very high risk situations that they do in everyday life but that's financially hardest decisions or high risk

relationships drug taking things like that and that's because we think of as i said some folks who are in the bright well given you're famous for killing eve isn't it much the in the very book you've written you say media portrayals of psychopathy are often one dimensional when you go to give credit to feed you all a bridge in that the killing 18 for bringing me on to try and make a socket half you is at least superficially believe won't because they have that the traits that accurately represented in things like the psychopathy checklist the psychopath test we can applies ability but but. but she also has a more interesting backstory as well. you know she's a child. from a broken family and she's brought in see what a lifestyle it really pushes her to take the kind of risks that we could pass off very happy to take regardless of the consequences so i thought it was really interesting that they wanted to make such a plausible character. even though maybe some of it is a little bit. like to call it unicorn in that the now has unicorn features is not

someone that you'd be very lucky to meet in your life ever write it you know hopefully not a you go through case studies i might ask you about a couple of them in a 2nd but you do quote robert have one of the founders of psychiatry psychoanalysis the talks about psychopaths he said the modern corporation has the characteristics of a psychopathic way particularly interested in the individual psychopaths not the systemic ones because of course famously it's been said that if you're in a psychopathic society it's normal to be a psychopath the outliers or the non psychopath well that's that's true i think my interest has been i i was a sociologist working with. patients in high secure also those prisons that's how i came into this line of words and i was a supposed quite struck by how bad we were just society and they bring out what to do with something that's. not necessarily kill but provide

a 1000000 farms within which they have any realistic chance of flourishing because somebody isn't very good at making decisions or breaking inferences about other people's emotions and they are very good 'd at deciding what if your level of risk is taking you know financially. risky decisions or deciding what to do with their lives they are counted out in a loose end and we always try some of us like to say that you know it's one of the last 5 years that we don't particularly want psychopaths around us in our society and so when we think about what are we going to do with these people we need to have a solution for those people who committed crimes provides them with a way back into society but at the same time we know that psychopaths who comes here chris and it comes through the mental health system tend to reoffend even if they've been rehabilitated so whatever it is that we're doing the isn't really working i never really thought that was good enough i think that we needed to work a lot harder to try great environments with a pass connection to have

a meaningful and productive life and the book is kind of a buy a house just the sight of past quite a quite regular basis something. and what proportion of psychopaths in society maybe maybe around this team making going underground oh he talking about one of the scale of this so it ensured the general population i think probably about one in every 500 to one in every 1000 people would meet the criteria for a robot has psychopathy checklist which is quite a high payoff and most people in the population in the u.k. have no psychopathic traits so they might have maybe one trait and that could include things like being a bit impulsive or taking risks or being dependent on other people being sexually promiscuous so it's not necessarily the case that you have the core features of cycle but if we understand somebody who's conning and manipulates if you used grandiose who used. remorseless and callous in that the way that they treat other

people so it's not common to meet psychopaths in the general population it's very unlikely that you work with them although we know also from bob has research that there are some professions such as stockbroking and chief executive officers that tend to attract psychopaths more than others but it's not likely you'd meet one in your you every day life whereas in prison we know that up to 15 percent of the prison population would be diagnosable psychopaths are very different environment to work and i want to get to that class dimension in a 2nd be you don't think there's a danger then of before you get into the case studies of physiologically understanding psychopathy you mentioned the brain the make dilla the prefrontal cortex big pharma loves things like that they can give medicine for you firmly on the side of the physiological element of psychopathy rather than the class and societal. context of psychopathy i'm not i

know i think the evidence for. the problems if only one in a fast people is a psychopath you haven't got a big sample to understand have. now people with this diagnosis fit into society you don't really understand what the needs of the research evidence is for the way that psychopathic brains operate is pretty good we have some genetic evidence some genetic research as well that suggests that as a assess it genes that seem to be linked to the way that people develop as children and that some of those children with those genes will then go on to becomes our past but not all of them i think as a surprise it's more interesting to think about well. if there are these all side of us have these brain wiring to function what they all in prison want they all criminals and there's a an interesting case of professor jim fallon he's ever such a psychological researcher and united states as part of a study scan his own brain using a technique called positron emission tomography pet scan and he didn't realize what

he done but he'd actually put its own brain scan into the sokal he was looking at and he realized that this person who scanners are can have very hard if all of the physiological in the case of psychopathy but he lived to a normal life and this is his brain he did the normal life he had a successful career in research and yet he had all of that is logical characteristics of a psychopath so it's not the case that everyone with these deficiencies ends up in prison and some of them can be quite successful but we do know that yet the majority of psychopaths that we encounter are in prison service is mental health services and usually that for quite a serious crime and that effort quite a long time as well i don't be flippant but tell me about your favorite of the 7 cases right i mean they're all quite grim but maybe just briefly tell us about one of the i suppose there's a character in the book called tony who is the closest to a successful psychopath he's had a very successful career but unfortunately career is based almost entirely on the

conning and defrauding people around him and he has a very sort of his father was a very successful con man who was never as far as we know you trying to get it and he was. he was a sort of international playboy he used the proceeds of his cons to fund its very lavish lifestyle and tony tries to do this but he's simply not quite as good and he also has some quite deviant sexual tastes involving power control and. and sadism and his eventual crime he's cool side abusing a sex worker quite seriously so he sort of you know he. he plays the lifestyle of but then he's cool sad and the interesting part of this is that the reason he's cool is not because he committed the crime but rather because he pays the sex worker the check from his own personal bank that he sets up with the proceeds of the various other fortune activists is that he's engaged in the past few years and then he's forgotten to top the bank account up with funds so when sex worker goes

to cash that check it banks is on at that point the police are involved and the terrifying thing about haste is that it shows that this is the tip of an iceberg that you know there are men like tony who regularly commit crimes but not all of them it detected maybe this speaks of the idea of race resi said alice is american psycho that some people a supported by network were a sort of social consensus that people who appear at woodley successful there have to be as accountable for their actions as some other of us to and i think tony was just such a fascinating character because he managed to maintain such composure and sort of poise all the way through his incarceration he never really gave away that he was involved in a sort of very unpleasant sleezy crime and you always saw himself a superiors of the rest of us working with him so he i think personally he remains one of the most interesting cases in that for me anyway well how ironic then the

aside from the what you say in the book about if you're eating mental health provision as to is networking in his own community and ultimately community and that sense of belonging you believe could be a therapeutic approach to rehabilitation for psych about absolutely that's a really good point i think that psychopaths we know don't really respond to punishment and it's interesting that the response of most of our societies to a psychopathic who breaks the law is to punish them and punishment quite severely and in the united states whether you score high on the psychopathy checklist or not can be a bear of whether you are. capital punishment or whether you are excluded from capital punishment depending on the the jurisdiction you're in so i think if we were if we were able to focus on what is the role of somebody with these traits in society because in i think there's. a good theory of i i think it's more so she passed by and merican psychological john lives the way he proposes that there's

a gene that these people carry that goes into being very effective in situations where not taking other people's emotional needs into account is actually quite effective and uses the example of hunter gathering societies or vikings where being a warrior who's remorseless and relentless in your pursuit if you are desires and goals is actually quite helpful but in a modern society where we're all supposed to be networked and part of social groupings around each other being a sort of lone wolf who's not accountable and doesn't really think about other people's emotional responses to our actions isn't very valuable and actually gets you labeled as a psychopath and a deviant and a widow but if we were able to find a way to sort of encouraged sika pass through a process that rather than punishment encouragement to try and get in to identify more pro-social girls and to understand how other people will respond to that more unappealing social traits that say that that's a callous behavior for the people i think that would be

a very productive way for it and there's been some work in creating social microcosms in the prison service and the forensic mental health services the high seat here mental hospitals in the u.k. to try to create the social microcosms web site or past work with other psychopaths and stuff to try and create a community a therapeutic community that allows them to explore more preprocessor girls than the offending that they've been so used to in their lives so that's promising i'm none of it's got great evidence yet but nothing as far as like a pass go you get does really the ultimate reason thank you and making is like about my journey and if i'm dangerous my that now that i'm the show. we'll be back on wednesday until then never miss an interview by subscribing to our channel on you tube and joining me on the ground on twitter facebook instagram and sound.

kind of financial survival job today with all the money laundering 1st to visit this should this be different. oh good this is a good start well we have our 3 banks all set up here maybe something in europe something in america something overseas in the cayman islands or do we do all these banks are complicit in their tough talk or say we just have to call and say hey i'm ready to do some serious money laundering ok let's see how we did while we've got

a national dream watch for max and for stacy oh beautiful jewelry how about. luxury automobile again you know what money laundering is highly illegal here for a watch guys record. this is a story of women women with troubled histories and complex court cases you know some of those deadly leave apu lives out there. where not. the person that there is a cheesiness of the they are considered the most dangerous of criminals she's in a still. mouthing off 23 hours of the day tell me that is not enough and is in world of women on death row on our team. in. the impossible soup world where sleeves sure but. how to do

w. clubbable was your choice. i can order cook doesn't actually matter vegetable would have been murdered by. you to go there when you're all of those who do use the word because those told me again we will see in the movie it is with the it seems more serious but it is the most severe some of it is in your speech come off it and use the of. the 20th century was thing in or of revolution the great depression and world war the 21st century of mental illness. those aren't my words that's what surfaced some psychologists tell us the only question is should we accept it as a fact. yes or no. show seemed wrong. just told. me you get to shape

out just to become educated and engaged with equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. must obey the orders given by human beings except when such a conflict with the 1st law. we should be very careful about official intelligence at that point only. on theory shots and with artificial intelligence will summon the demon.

must protect its own existence was. in today's headlines a role reversal after democrats called into doubt the 2016 u.s. presidential election now accused of them of stealing the 2020 about. expresses hope of better transatlantic times under joe biden though not everyone on the continent is convinced. also this hour russia's daily coronavirus rate tops 20000 for the last 3 days running they had dr i mean close at the hospital with the warning signs were there. in the summer we relaxed let ourselves go and here you are we're seeing the consequences of this in automobiles. and the u.k. visitors from denver.