anshul clash with 2 former bankers turned t.v. writers whose new show industry exposes the arguable class war at the heart of the city of london but what drives those who make it to the top of the world of banking we investigate the real american psychos as well as those crushed by modern capitalist society with the man behind killing dr mark freestone all of the more coming up in today's going underground but 1st coronavirus has arguably shine a light like no other on the relative responses of capitalist and neo communist societies to pandemics here in britain economic protection is under the thumb of a former banker bailed out goldman sachs boris johnson's chancellor is she soon but what's it like to work in the city a new drama premiering tonight in the americas on h.b.o. and here in britain on b.b.c. 2 tomorrow focuses on the lives of bright graduates who enter the bailed out city of london for money their behavior in just acting with geopolitics like a potential u.s. china war it's called industry and paints a tragically vivid and had mystic portrait of

a dystopian source of neoliberal inequality industries to writers former bankers mickey down and conrad kay joins me now from london thanks so much for coming on a lot of people loved it and the editor used to work in sports f.x. said it was accurate the city of london being empty because of tell me about industry and how it somehow goes in the micro of graduate employment to war in the south china sea in anticapitalist demonstrations. well that it was false as you said it was bought from lawsuits already experience it's been corrupt let's say that in 2009 because of the 10 and everybody felt the pressure of getting a good job was there and we wanted to finance it and i personally found out very elsie's to it very very quickly come around last slightly longer but what it did spot was this 1st script rewrites resized right let's get it which was a really poor attempt to try to capture the role that it was missed by me clearance experience sitting at room about a mix yet the key that unlocked it was writing from the experience of people who

are at the very very bottom so i feel like it always does this because he wasn't sure about this world. deals with people at the top of it and that's what we thought interesting i found interesting about that well is that it's never really been seen through the prism of people who have at least our very into if the 1st i'm. gradually iraq happened and while it's my pleasure to congratulate you on this placement and want to stay here starts now we've seen your vouches for you the impression that you make on clients will all be evaluated in 6 months time on risk day that's a reduction in force you'll be standing in this room telling all of us why you should be hired permanently to your desk and make he was making films conrad you directed hamlet university so can you before you went in the city tensions were or were under the plane but you're very conscious of not trying to glamorize as has

been done in the ninety's arguably the city of london which actually is in the news for making money out of covert arguably you didn't want to glamorize it make it set up of its to be perfectly honest we didn't have a very main mickey sort of out of the outs and were very clear that we didn't want to make it so ideologically driven show about what necessarily our kind of take on that world was i think what we've chosen to call it on screen. because i get away from what me and sort of think about it but i think it's pretty imbedded in the subtext of the shower rather than the text of the show and you know i think. what we're really interested in really as writers the kind of a lot it's this this place still oh not 6008 search for a certain type of person a certain type of graduate but as mickey says it's really you know it's a soup inside a real world and for a lot of people it's a real black box but we thought if we could sort of crack open to the president these 5 characters who are all in some way i have a socio economically or gender wise or racially that you know that's some variant

of as an outsider we thought it out give a kind of a kind of universality to it to people could appreciate people who worked on it some people who didn't what let's get rid of the need to ask us to come to someone close to god it's very comforting i'm sorry if you lost but if you do that here but don't use the very small one of those new you know like regional not club security thank you security if you can i just hope we just do that for you please ask yourself and your peers you see what you've done that is actually arrest a billboard to how go he well i want to get back to intersection out in class in a 2nd but. time and time again we don't want to give away the plot the i hear optics comes out it seems that your fictional investment bank be a point obsessed by what it looks like to the outside presumably because the reputation of bankers is a bore we call the show a contemporary show that sort of set possibly even the word last 3 years but what we've been trying to do in the 1st season there are bits in a season which people could suggest that maybe slightly sensationalized and that's

true and you know there are things that i'm practices that happen to show or it's probably when we have to get away with in today's climate but what we try to do in a serious basically dramatize that culture share from what you were talking about as an individual isn't a collective it's a collective as well you're sort of thinking about the situation think about yourself that your own bottom line and the idea that you know it's pushing a gray young graduates the point where some of that mental. the house has been strained to their physical health is drained it's no longer acceptable so i feel like the. wife still sort of you know it is unlikely to say those things have done surely future upticks but i feel that you know it would be probably a disservice to the industry it is just it's only due diligence i think there probably is probably a little bit more than olivia and more from trying to see that space go through more i think they realize they need sort of a comparative reaction changed and clearly conrad the brain drain element of the attraction of financial institutions because they pay more money over the

dreams and ambitions of young people what they really want to get out of life they clear on the current through the plot i think the truth is i mean the thing that i've always found interesting about this one will speaking to a mickey talked about as well in terms of cultural change and right in these institutions bringing themselves up with the kind of the work climate in 2020 round you know. attitudes to gender sort of toxicity bullying all that sort of stuff you know i think you know as much as these institutions change this stillness inherent . contradiction in them which is basically you know we might be you know all of that itch to talk sobbing america talk racine about being more and more of a collectivist saying we're all coming at us and direction but the metrics and evaluation is still very much the same as a bad debate and so you sort of every february january your boss takes you to run he slides member life over and you get renumerated based on your comments appealing americal thing so i think i mean that kind of practice well obviously that's been also as a reformer i'm biased and stop the kind of that's that kind of

a kind of the opium effect of bad like i'd like living and living that paycheck and so i still think really applies to all these people who work in this industry and making the script is so brilliantly observed you use american terms like work capitalism and spin that reagan fashion thread through at their important to. i mean arguably it has been written before the idea of banter in the office and identity politics very important to you that the issue of class was there in addition to race and sex discrimination i think so i think it's something that it's a so present persons in british society and it would be this 'd i'm doing a disservice to the show if we hadn't touched it i feel like and it may include it was attracted to that question about you know what makes us what makes some through the from a certain class and whether money can be something that sort of stimulates you and

appreciative classes of where you were born and and also the psoriatic the american attitude to a class british one and whether the american see the cost was if you have money in your 'd job and your sort of material stuff in the british which is basically where you are a school where you get your parents why did you read your graffiti joke for the least amount of applicants the year before. it's a marginal game about marginal gains nothing wrong with a back go i play thankful to do you think is my mother's life teaches christ and not a factor when you stand on the moms are you someone who here you know as a carpenter and conrad is it a particularly exciting thing to write and a lot of fun to write given american reviews of talk about news room and other comparisons but he have things as mundane as buying lunch at the office right up to a possible war between the us and the south china sea and not conscious about the human casualties of that just conscious of making money out of the war yeah no

totally i mean like the cornerstone for the show to me and mickey was always. like given the fact that we came from that world we thought we were just it would be to not render as accurately as we could only as much specificity as we could and it wouldn't it wouldn't be true to the drama of it i mean for us i mean i don't know at this is just personal taste i know if i select as well as my partner is like we find as much drama in the kind of small amount. once and the kind of you know whatever it can be as mundane as getting you know going to the coffee room or you know sort of happenstance encounter with someone in an elevator but those that those little small moments a drummer a kind of office life is all about and we want it you know there's something inherently true about the watchability of people at work you know that's like good workplace dramas always seem to work and for us as we intend to write as we're always very keen to honor those smaller moments in the drama as well because i mean you know all of our favorite workplace dramas are all about the kind of that the breath of the office and what it actually feels like to be in those places and we

try to in terms of everything from that there in the sound design to the set for the production design mimic you are obsessed with the small details like if you look at people's desks in the show you'll find that you know what they happen to have on a desk is like speech the but they're biography a lot so for us that michelle kind of lived and died by statehouse and we were very militant about all of us. and making how does it differ from when you were in the city presumably your colleagues didn't sit around they want to kill are talking about power class and coersion and class war. while you're having lunch i mean i would it's a very boring part of the bank got the pack the carrots to his work unless they were coming spend their time. sitting in front of a computer do excel spreadsheets of power presentations as it was getting very very tight in the process interesting read all other other power drinks are visible. i'll let you talk about what mickey was just saying but we do have

a chance or the exchequer recent act who used to we're going to vestment bank bailed out goldman sachs i mean if someone watches your show and then thinks about the different things richardson agha's doing to help the economy how can we fit in the idea that he may may have worked in the kind of depicted in this show well i don't i mean i think i think what the show manages to do and i hope that you. just as to not trade in stereotypes i think you know a lot of the a lot of the depictions of this well classically on some level get a lot of it right in terms of the level of sort sociopathy and psychopathy at the top of these institutions and i'm not going to state that just the sites is what tends to beat on screen quite a lot while we were hoping to do is show 5 pretty flawed pretty human pretty vulnerable characters who you know very very young very impressionistic and show on some level how they vary so it's these places that on some levels of these places are very corrosive to the light as i said before mickey would never really

interested in writing something that tracked about why banking never seen anyone put their i.q. want to see before. how many of these have you had 94 new york far here and a sky. where you hear them well so a very political answer but. i think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who hire private tutors. i'm here on my own yeah i mean i shouldn't have us shouldn't think this is a deeper academic tome on the power. in fact there are there are a lot of of course a lot of drugs involved in the program to know whether you'd say that that was accurate i have only seen 4 of the episodes haven't seen the other 4 do you think the bank has understood while they were taking all the cocaine that the supply of drugs is about supplied the mondavi drug. smuggling let alone foreign policy of the

drugs market why there irony there hanging over the entire plot i think those are not really succeeded people generally have to cope with. so i think there is a risk in irony about where this is kind of well used or said i think the memory. to get off. i did. i always had the thought that if you if you took it could be some sort of weird reality experiment where you took all the people who were brutalized by the supply chain of cocaine into the room with the people who have to be doing the drug but that still be there but it still end up doing it and i would think they probably wouldn't. make it down conrad kay thank you after the break from bankers to assassins we ask the doctor who inspired killing eve about the making of a psychopath and if those deemed psychopaths by society are really just a product of it all the more coming up in part 2 of going underground.

you will see wolf where's. your. wu lovable was. sure. i can border. to put a gun. you got to go with us because all of those who knew the story could be game we will see in the to be confused with the we've seen the. news but it's the most severe summer put in your city's come on and used. the 20th century was going in a revolution the great depression and world war the 21st century real mental illness. those are my words that's what sort of this time psychiatry the only question is should we accept it as a fact. but

the pandemic no certainly no border is just blind to nationalities. as americans we don't have a therapy we don't have the facts in the whole world beat's to be the chief. judge of. comedy crisis what is this time to time so we can do better we should. everyone is contributing each of our own way but we also know that this crisis not go on forever the challenge is creating the response has been massive so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

welcome back in part one we heard from to form a bank has turned t.v. writers who talked about psychopaths in the city of london that featured in the new show industry another t.v. show that draws from reality for its psychopath is killing eve and the dr behind its lead character villain l. dr mark freestone is catalogued not only psychopathy and high finance famously depicted in american psycho but those who have been crushed by a society that arguably created them his new book making a psychopath is out now and he joins me from london mark welcome to going underground so what is a psychopath the a great american writer norman mailer equated it psychopathic rebellion against totalitarianism. that's an interesting definition i think such a path research has moved on

a lot since since the sixty's and seventy's and now we understand that psychopaths have a problem with the aryan that brain means that they don't really process in motion and importantly risk in the same way as other people do they don't realize it motions other people they can't see things like sadness or fear and they can't really make very good judgments about decisions that might be not in their best interest for example so they tend to be people who take very hard risks with the situations that they do in everyday life but that's finance the hardest decisions or high risk relationships drug taking things like that and that's because we think of as i said some folks who are in the bright well given you're famous for killing eve isn't it a bit much the in the very book you've written you say media portrayals of psychopathy are often one dimensional when you've got to give credit to feed you all a bridge in the killing a team for bringing me on to try and make a sock of half you is at least superficially believe. i don't because they have the

traits that accurately represented in things like the psychopathy checklist the psychopath test we can apply as ability but but. but she also has a more interesting backstory as well you know she's a child. from a broken family and she's in cus a lifestyle that really pushes her to take account of risks that we could pass off very happy to take regardless of the consequences so i thought it was really interesting that they wanted to make such a plausible character. even though maybe some of it is a little bit. like to call it unicorn and that the mouse unicorn features is not someone that you'd be very lucky to meet in your life or i don't think you know hopefully not you go through case studies i might ask you about a couple of them in a 2nd but you do quote robert have one of the founders of psychiatry segment out of the talks about psychopaths he said the modern corporation has the characteristics of a psychopathic way particularly interested in the individual psychopaths not the systemic

ones because of course famously it's been said that if you're in a psychopathic society it's normal to be a psychopath the outliers are the non psych about well let's just show you i think my interest has been i i was a sociologist working with. patients in high secure also those prisons that's how i came into this line of words and i was a supposed quite struck by how bad we were just society at figuring out what to do with something that's. not necessarily good approach but provided with environments within which they have any realistic chance of flourishing because somebody isn't very good at making decisions or breaking in france is about other people's emotions and they are very good at deciding what it is a good level of risk is taking you know financially. risky decisions or deciding what to do with their lives they are counted out in a loose end and we always try to of us like say that you know it's one of the last 5 years that we don't particularly want psychopaths around us in our society so

when we think about what are we going to do with these people we need to have a solution for those people who committed crimes provides them with a way back into society but at the same time we know the psychopaths who comes here chris and it comes through the mental health system tend to reoffend even if they've been rehabilitated so whatever it is that we're doing isn't really working and i would never really thought that was good enough i think that we needed to work a lot harder to try great environments where psychopaths can actually have a meaningful and productive life and the book is kind of a buy a house just. sort of past quite a lot of regular basis i think and what proportion of psychopaths in society maybe maybe around this team making going underground oh he talking about one of the scale of this. so it into the general population i think probably about one in every 500 to one in every 1000 people would meet the criteria for a robot has cycle of the checklist which is quite

a high payoff and most people in the population in the u.k. have no psychopathic traits so they might have maybe one trait and that could include things like being a bit impulsive or taking risks or being dependent on other people being sexually promiscuous so it's not necessarily the case that you have the cool features a cycle but if we understand the somebody who's conning and manipulates if you use grandiose who's. remorseless and callous in that the way that they treat other people so it's not common to meet psychopaths in the general population it's very unlikely that you work with them although we know also from bob has research that there are some professions such as stockbroking and chief executive officers that tend to attract psychopaths more than others but it's not likely you'd meet one in your you every day life whereas in prison we know that up to 15 percent of the prison population would be diagnosable it's like across a very different environment to work and i want to get to that class dimension in

a 2nd b. you don't think there's a danger then of before you get into the case studies of physiologically understanding psychopathy you mentioned the brain the make dilla the prefrontal cortex big pharma loves things like that they can give medicine for you firmly on the side of the physiological element of psychopathy rather than the class and societal. context of psychopathy i'm not i think the evidence for. the problems if only one in a fast people is a psychopath you haven't got a big sample to understand how people with this diagnosis fit into society you don't really understand what the needs of the research evidence is for the way that psychopathic brain. the price is pretty good we have some genetic evidence some genetic research as well that suggests there's a assess it genes that seem to be linked to the way that people develop as children

and that some of those children with those genes will then go on to become sort of us that not all of them i think as a surprise it's more interesting to think about well. if there are these all side of us have these brainwashing to function what they all in prison want they all criminals and there's a an interesting case of professor jim fallon he's a research a psychological researcher and united states as part of a study scan his own brain using a technique called positron emission tomography pet scan and he didn't realise what he done but he'd actually put its own brain scan into the sokal he was looking at and he realized that this person who scanners are can have very hard if all of the physiological in the case of psychopathy but he lived to a normal life and this was his brain he did the normal life he had a successful career research and yet he had all of that is logical characteristics of a psychopath so it's not the case that everyone with these deficiencies ends up in prison and some of them can be quite successful but we do know that yet the

majority of psychopaths that we encounter are in prison service is mental health services and usually that that for quite a serious crime and that a quite a long time as well i don't be flippant but tell me about your favorite of the 7 cases i mean they're all quite grim but maybe just briefly tell us about one of them i suppose there's a character in the book called tony who is the closest to a successful psychopath he's had a very successful career but unfortunately career is based almost entirely on the conning and defrauding people around him and he has a very sort of his father was a very successful con man who was never as far as we know trying to get it and he was. he was a sort of international playboy he used the proceeds of his cons to fund its very lavish lifestyle and tony tries to do this but he's simply not quite as good and he also has some quite deviant sexual tastes involving power control and.

and sadism and his eventual crime he's cool side abusing a sex worker quite seriously so he sort of you know he. he plays the lifestyle of the he school sat and then the interesting part of this is that the reason he's cool is not because he committed the crime but rather because he pays the sex worker the check from his own personal bank that he sets up with the proceeds of the various other fortune activities that he's engaged in the past few years and then he's forgotten to top the bank account up with funds so when sex worker goes to cash that check it bank says and at that point the police are involved and the terrifying thing about that case is that it shows that this is the tip of an iceberg that there are men like tony who regularly commit crimes but not all of them a detective maybe this speaks to the idea of priest press analysis american psycho that some people a supported by network or a sort of social consensus that people who appear outwardly successful there have

to be as accountable for their actions as some other of us do and i think tony was just such a fascinating karats it because he managed to maintain such composure and sort of poise all the way through his incarceration he never really gave away that he was involved in a sort of very unpleasant sleezy crime and you always saw himself a superior to the rest of us working with him so he i think personally he remains one of the most interesting cases in that for me anyway well how ironic then the aside from what you say in the book about the theory to mental health provision as to is networking in his own community and ultimately community and that sense of belonging you believe could be a therapeutic approach to rehabilitation for psychopaths absolutely that's a really good point i think that psychopaths we know don't really respond to punishment and it's interesting that the response of most of our societies to a psychopathic who breaks the law is to punish them and punishment quite severely

and in the united states whether you score high on the psychopathy checklist or not can be a bear of whether you are. capital punishment or whether you are excluded from capital punishment depending on the the jurisdiction you're in so i think if we were if we were able to focus on what is the role of somebody with these traits in society because in i think there's. a good theory a bias i think it's more so she passed by and merican psychological john lives the way he proposes that there's a gene that these people carry that goes into very very effective in situations where not taking other people's emotional needs into account is actually quite effective and uses the example of hunter gathering societies will vikings where being a warrior who's remorseless and relentless in your pursuit if you are desires and goals is actually quite helpful but in a modern society where we're all supposed to be networked in part of social groupings around each other being a sort of lone wolf who's not accountable and doesn't really think about other

people's emotional responses to our actions isn't very valuable and actually gets you labeled as a psychopath and a deviant and a widow but if we were able to find a way to sort of encouraged cycle pass through a process that rather than punishment encouragement to try and get into identify more pro-social goals and to understand how other people will respond so that more unappealing social traits that say that that's a callous behavior for the people i think that would be a very productive way forward and there's been some work in creating social microcosms in the prison service and the forensic mental health services the high c. here mental hospitals in the u.k. trying to create the social life because web site a pass work with other psychopath and stuff to try and create a community a therapeutic community that allows them to explore more preprocessor should grow older than the offending that they've been so used to in their lives so that's promising i'm none of it's got great evidence yet but nothing as far as like

a pass go you get does really the ultimate respond thank you and making it like about my journey and if i'm dangerous my that now that i'm the show. we'll be back on wednesday until then never miss an interview by subscribing to our channel on you tube and joining the on the ground on twitter facebook instagram and sun. this is a story of women women with troubled histories and complex court cases you know some. where not. the person that. the cheesiness and they are considered the most dangerous of criminals she's in a still. well below 23 hours of the day tell me that it's not enough and it.

will give women on death row. that. was. breaking news on our t.v. a russian military helicopter shelf over the border between armenia and azerbaijan and 2 crewmembers being there's no indication so far of who was responsible also ahead in the program. but. up up up supporters of president trump take to the streets or cross the country demanding vote. states and there's a role reversal the team trailed by choosing the democrats of stealing.