my wife, your husband, my mother, your parents, it doesn't matter whether or not they were deprived as a youth. it doesn't matter not whether or not they had no background that enabled them to have to become on a social. 'd i become the socializing is the fabric of society. it doesn't matter whether or not there's the victims of society. the end result is they're about to knock my mother on the head with a lead pipe. shoot, my sister beat up my wife, take on my sons. so i don't want to ask what made them do this? let's take it off straight. as liberals cheer the election of mass incarceration advocate, joe biden, we speak to u.k. queens counsellor chris door about why the u.s. u.k. approach to prisons is catastrophic. and why it's now time to shut down prisons here and abroad for good. and why does the us have the highest number of coronavirus deaths with over 240000 and counting when the country militarily,

but paid communist cuba has fewer than $200.00. we speak to co-present of cuban covert, 19 public health and solidarity about fighting about endemic with internationalism . oliseh more going on today is going on the ground offensive. joe biden ever becomes us president. in january, he will preside over a country with the highest prison population in the world, 26 years after he supported a crime bill. the critics claim was responsible for a system of mass incarceration that imprisons more per capita than stalin or mao., joining me now is the criminal defense lawyer of a 25 years with scoria, 18 k., and us justice systems in his new book, justice on trial, radical solutions for a system at breaking point. chris dorky pres, welcome, do going underground. a lot of people talking about britain, possibly breaking international law or over a break said, but your new book is so beautiful and eloquently written about britain's justice system. how difficult was it even to write a book such a damning account of the judicial system here from the inside?

to be honest with you, spend a bit of time last year, just thinking about what a mess we've made of our justice not just in the last few years, but the foot from pakistan. sure, it's, we spend time just, you know, looking people up for no reason trying to criminalize drugs with no good to be want and even put children in prisons, you know, from the police just insane. so we have a completely dysfunctional system and hospital all these years with the only side of the system. i just think it's about time the people he asked. i noticed last, you know, we covered the plight of julian assange, the weald famous journalist, the u.n. special robert meltzer has been on this program at the edge and he was being tortured at belmont prison in london. you know, some people, i don't know, some mainstream media newspapers call it the holiday camps, these british presence, you begin the book and bell much i do on his or her if it place is terrible to visit. as a visitor, as a lawyer, it takes a long time to get even as a visitor,

but to actually be an inmate there, soul destroying. i mean, i went to the special secure unit there and i saw clients in there and you know, describe the conditions in the book. it's a soul is bleak, miserable place, designed to do nothing of the human spirit. and i genuinely don't see anyone has been anytime to which of course, some people say that's what it should be like. but in the book you quote peter clarke, the 29 u.k. chief prison inspector, claiming comparisons with before the 18th twenty's. we are in a situation where some of our prisons are no better in the way they treat people than 200 years ago, or even in some cases 2000 years ago. you know, we particularly at the moment, i mean, i suppose supply yesterday, i suppose or not on friday. they are being locked up for 23 hours a day in a small box. now if that isn't of course psychological torture designed to do nothing but make people go crazy and actually come out of prison and commit more

crimes that i don't know what it's all the, some of the defendants actually feel safer in prisons. i describe some of the really deeply damaged individuals that act it for people who are, you know, with the care system as many people in prison, well, who were abused as children about it. as children often end up on streets and homeless and our prisons are full of people like that for whom actually, despite the terrible conditions, prison is somehow better than my family outside. and you mentioned, you know, why enjoy life asked to go to the eat rather be in for as a, the fruit quick minute of practical advice. before we get to the usa and russia, you trace jurisprudent trials, right? from mayan civilization. then talk about juries. if anyone's against jury trial in britain, you say, don't worry too much of judges interfere too much because juries, they don't like it. no, that's true. but my experience of egoless cheer is that anyone,

but they're not being told what to do by the judge. and if they feel the judge and given the defendant affect crack of the whip, the jury will say, you know, stuff, you just weaken it really going to decide that we'd like and we're going to find the defendant not guilty, whatever you might think. and of course, that's right, because that's what the system requires. that requires the jury's riggs a verdict, but i've seen it time and again, when judges try and kind of influence the jury and sight and see things about the defendant. and i mean to rock defense counsel, including maybe when in the middle cross-examination did. i see the jury says or say, this isn't fair. and if the jury does think it's fair, they will say not guilty us the great thing about the english jury system. well, over in the united states, everyone is talking about president elect joe biden, and perhaps i mean that lots of disturbing things in your new book, but when it comes to mass incarceration the policy espoused by joe biden, you come up with something called the city of incarceration just explain how you

see the u.s. justice system since joe biden's reforms. well, so that joe biden has been a huge advocate of mass incarceration. i mean that at the for the truth is that mass incarceration is a great end in the u.s. psyche. and in the u.s. criminal justice system for all sorts of reasons the, that it has prevailed on every single president of the prison population. as i say, i can so about the city of incarceration. 2350000 people in american prisons and it would be the 5th largest city in america. if it were a city that is quite staggering. i mean, when you think about the papers and population, she's over 80000, but that's the largest in western europe. but there are 2350000000 in the truth of it says that they have this huge capitalist corporate structure, a private prison environment, which he massively profits of gold ration. and vested interests,

really there's no incentive to change and it cost them hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep c with $35000000.00 in prison. and you don't want to have the highest rates of guarana murder. well, i know you say all prisons should be closed. what you say if what you are alleging is true, that the reason things don't change is really because of the kind of corporate low being that goes on with judges. it's a mixture of things. the 1st is that there is a political attachment and it's an attachment that the general public often shares to really tough sentences. so locking people up for as long as possible. that's why you end up with hundreds or thousands of years sentences in some states because people voted for it and people like it. but the other thing is the criminal justice system, including the prison system and many other elements of the system, is a multi $1000000000.00 industry and their own vested interests. and they, they invest the lobby of politicians. they have many, many candidates who are supported by corporations which are profiting from the

criminal justice process. and american politics often, you know, depends heavily on the lobbying of private interests in order to see it in order to push policy along and that, and that, that's a factor has been easily increasing factor not being too american prisons. i've seen the employers of the private sector and it's a really, really scary thing. well, of course we have private prisons here spearheaded by labor and tory government. you have no time for boris johnson's get tough platform in the election in december . just tell me though, how have your peers treated this new book of yours? because given that it wants to abolish prisons, given that it talks about this, these political pressures on justice and paints such a poor picture of justice. not only in britain in the united states, and i should say, other countries, russia, which will get on to what have you piers said about it. so i think many of my colleagues support the cruelty. yes. it's that the criminal justice system is completely broken. but when i was writing the book,

i traveled all over the us in particular in the deep south with some of the, you know, the most draconian prison sentences are imposed on some of the worst prison conditions. and the irony of it was, i spoke to judges who are responsible for imposing these very long sentences, or even the death penalty and to a man and woman. they all say, we know it doesn't work. we know these very long sentences, a ridiculous, we know this, an 18 year old to prison for the rest of his natural life. for drugs, crime is easy, a moral and counterproductive and ridiculously draining and expensive to the state and destroys whole communities. and my sense of, well, why do you do it then? they say, because if we didn't impose sentences like that, no one would vote for us and we wouldn't have a job. he's going back to democracy. i mean, joe biden was also playing as well as supporting the crime bill that the war on drugs must be fought central in your book. not only in the united states. you also talk about what happened in russia and russia came into crimea. tell me about why

drugs are so important to the injustice that you document in the book. as i describe in the book, i think i managed to, i mean i had a lot of research on the book. i managed to find examples of the early human 2000000 years ago, taking psychotropic drugs in the fall with psychotropic plots, and sort of co evolving by using psychotropics as off the development of the human species. and the truth is that people have taken drugs of one kind or nama, since time began, and they always will. and so the problem with criminalizing something which is so fundamental to who we are, all we do is that it's never going to work. and when you criminalize it, all you do, if you create the black market, huge opportunities for profit, for all in all as criminals and sob sob, backbite by government. so all corruption in the states, all this just operating is these massive international. no, as a crime, it works better. you have an unregulated losses,

organized crime market. what follows is types, what follows the violence, what follows is murder on the streets. but in all of these, i mean, you talk about the london bridge attacks, you and i so many different elements of jurisprudence. you seem to be alleging by the end of the book that there's a kind of totalitarian conditioning amongst the public about what justice is. and that's why we have the crimes of the justice system to continue. i think i think it's a cultural rather than a totalitarian. mindset and we in certainly the english speaking world in britain and the us in particular. yet there has been these various shong drawing tools, punishment as being the aim of the system. as opposed to what most people might think the point of the system is which he said reduce the amount of crime. and there's a conflict between those 2 things. if the morning punish in a really draconian way, are there in the form of physical chastisement,

the death penalty, all very loan for tony in prison sentences, the more crime you get, what the public thinks, which is to quote unquote punish criminals. a crackdown is actually the thing that results in more crime. in our society. you say prison does not work every single day of every single prison sentence makes a society poor. i'm going to just quickly briefly ask you about the effect of coronavirus on defendant. maybe your chambers of your colleagues chambers. how worried are you about coronavirus and british presence? it's a really serious problem on 2 fronts. one of coles is that the faction rates in prison, and they've been these big outbreaks in certain institutions, but more widely. and as i say, our speech spoken supplants just in the last couple of days who are via video conferencing in prison. and they are telling me of the, of the detroit or a mental health crisis that's developing because they are being locked up. they are there, the education process in prison is now being closed. they are not out any visitors

. and can you imagine that sitting in a cell as they often office flinty 2 or 23 hours a day with nothing to do nowhere to go? no natural light and not even allowed to visit us because anybody from the outside world and i spoke to tom friday, he said he'd been in this condition for now for since the beginning of march. so it's about 8 or 9 months. even fictive solitary confinement, and so we are, you know, growth of ours is having a massive impact on people in prison. ok. you know, you, the public can say, well too bad, they deserve it. but those people in prison are going to come out and they get a mule, the streets, either in a month or year or in 10 years. and the more you damage them on the inside, the more damage they will do to us when they come out. crystal, casey, thank you. after the break with new u.s. sanctions to come into force against cuba, what example is washington still so afraid of and what lessons can new liberal

countries like britain, which has transferred billions into private corporations to learn from a country with fewer than $200.00 dead. and that spawns competition for cooperation in the fight against coronavirus. all the similar going up about to have going on the ground probe is facing probably his last battle as president. will he try to over the generals in dubai, his foreign policy pick up? where with the neo cons, again, back in control as well as in the bull, but at least nationally big city, bright lights, huge opportunities and many dangers to the rest of the globe, or they're going to do. it's also a city where up to $300000.00 crimes are committed every year goes

over the last. when they built the new mosque, it's still through the reserve least one police officer think every 200 residents in russia's capital cost on the list. but the truth is that the will not go with the wind up boysen, the room or the feet of the people who would have the most welcome back. britain has chosen the new labor, tory path of privatized city, consultancies to help fight coronavirus now has the worst death toll in europe. this while its closest ally, the usa with nearly as high death by capita rate as the u. ok chooses to wage economic war on the island of cuba. what is washington afraid of that? cuba has fewer than 200 dead from coated. joining me from glasgow is dr. helen u.f.a.,

who appears in the new documentary, cuba and coven, 1000 public health science and solidarity. helen, thanks so much for going back on to tell me how a documentary can even be made, let alone the fact that it's producing vaccines because everyone in britain is focused on the scandal, had to fight as a company as our greatest hope. how, when we were doing the interviews, the talk, and she, at that point you had one or not registered for clinical trials are on it's time we showed the documentary that humans now have 3 hands going back scenes on our own. and 2 of them are already wealthy, powerful, and i'm saying is just incredible when you think, you know that this is a small island nation and that's has its subjects to do 60 years of science. i mean, facts and terrible time of it. you thought it was hit, all right, only for 14 new sanctions are the trumpet. ministrations that it's really

incredible. we hope people can venture. you are going to see, you know, how oh yes little says let's say our plant at the ranch. oh, really saving lives. * and livelihoods, you know what americans watching this will say it's a dictatorship, all those brigades, the henry review brigades, we saw pictures of in italy trying to save the lives of italians. they're actually human trafficked doctors and nurses. he kind of answer that in the documentary, tell me about how that may not be right now. how do you, we're really not he to be at was in one of the 50 free medical question. and it's not really where the wealthy episode of the global pandemic back in late march and, and, and, and, you know, he doesn't see that accusation. he says,

all right, i am not this life. i make my own decision that he explained his own journey in relation to you and placed it on me every night and out the cuban medics. while i and you know, i asked if they wanted to govern a system where literally sitting in the attic will someone pile 500 hats ready to record. and you know, he and i want to study these trials and you know, last night this was my opportunity to impress as they were night lights lives could be saved. president bush here it. i don't just ignore you and you know, he did. this is his vocation. and you mean he found that you really felt that he and i hadn't started to help patients. ok, well if you watch this documentary,

maybe you'll learn different. but if you look at so-called, mainstream media, they're talking about pfizer, about astra zeneca, both big pharma multinationals and covert and why do you think we don't hear about the drugs mentioned in the documentary and just fins? all these different treatments, let alone the fact that the revolution itself was, was, was key. one of his key objectives as biotech. the key run by a tech set is quite unique. the way it was founded very early on in the dependent of our state on a g. as a field. and it was found in 9081. so that was after. and he said, can i say it, said 5 in the united states and the situation because it is the economy the session it's going to make? is it 100 percent? thanks. how do and, and all of the different institutions that western science and if it, how, which is in how walker i don't compete,

they don't seek to thank fuck it. all that the best production and the whole industry set up to meet public health to all the population is a credible ends of friendship between the sector, between the public health concepts, hat and the education sector. so it's a model that essentially minds based as you think this mainstreaming, this all says that is only the free market, only in terms of profit for competition, how we have efficient outcomes. now i would say that this, the response is that we've seen in countries around, well, it's a kind of thing that much as candidates whose values and the principles on which each side is open eyes. i mean, it has all the time. why is the us to question the meaning of the fish? when you know we have public health? how hoping that by the speculative race or profits,

because even if there is an absolute vaccines that was made in many pressure, to be honest. how will all companies have access as and what cost will it crop to be able to access that they need to save lives for the cubans? closer to the us, it's been 5 to be important, but then what will their own facts? i mean, we saw that with the announcement about the trials of fire for charles, the share price as you know, immediately respond and you know, you have to wonder what i think is process. that is also a tribute to the mobile side. right. right. and it is henry, really being taking some of our thoughts, all that you know has been that you've read that a lot of credit for president and even using the more of a while. and i wouldn't expect them to write me a great deal more racing off to the human men. all i'm really sharing some promise

is even at a new british joint venture that i will preventing that critically ill and seriously ill patients of private and yeah,, that there isn't in the documentary, there's a u.c.l., lincoln university, college london. are these get colleges not afraid of us? 3rd party sanctions, if they cooperate on healthcare development with cuba, the issuance and u.s. sanctions is a difficult one. there is and you can legislation that makes it illegal for the u.s. mckay to be in full state and, and individuals and companies interests and on the same price. your question why that legislation is at risk also. that's the issue at the collaboration and so i see if you see out of the states and they may be one of the hack ventilates as cubans south and way to copy,

they all said and used halts to create these machines that was fundraise through in recent court battles, cubans in the u.k. and, but you know, even for that as a fundraising campaign to save lives, they have to be very careful about which plan they use. and how they said, can they share the information because money, right? or, you know, if you plan ahead and cultural events issues has its own event by almighty event, but i hate how and of all because the u.s. ok. but i want to get on in a moment. don't know why washington is so seemingly afraid of the cuban he examined, but i don't know whether you noticed, but independence age is a committee advising which is named after the committee advising bars on to the government. i don't know whether you think they sound like dr. che guevara, because in the documentary,

it's clear that there are echoes of what independent sages saying here that it is localized n.h.s. health care. that is the way forward to combating coronavirus, as opposed to morris johnson's, a 12000000000 pound commission. to dido harding hand these big city, financial consultancy is what he, what do you make of this difference about why britain has 50000 dead and kuma only 850, give or has less than 150. i think the documentary trying to make that the use sensual tool in a way that you can, you know, it's all contagion and is the family health care. and it's right that these are the family photos. this is in every community. he has the highest ratio of not a person only go to the community, they live among medication, even the adults. it's got a family over now that's probably lived in the clinic. so help is available and

people are out there has just been by, they categorize the house, they took all of that community. so they immediately know if a disease like hybrid comes along that i am a sex people who are for spiritual problems. they immediately know who the former patients and the most incredible and elements of their 19 has been. so you have your own, i mean, increase the process anyway, which you're going to see is that every heroin in that community. and they've been assisted by 28000 medical students who calls her illness these universities and joined by me. and i went to school every day. so they were in teams. were they not 100 souls? and they asked at everyone in the house, you know how they were feeling, and they were basically tracking down when they had a suspected case,

instead of leaving them in the community, they were ordered taken to a medical facility or an isolation center where they test it with a supervised or in indy's isolation, that's great. now they know the isolation taking place at home, but they were also doing contract tracing in a very secret not just text message is tiny, not people bills being anyone who had been a concern that they had been tested really seriously. and this is a highly approach your house has, which is credential over that you'll and having this that all else. how ironic that seems to be the system pioneered by jon snow in london with color hundreds of years ago. but what do you make then? finally, of the allegations in the documentary that washington has weaponized coronavirus

a complete contravention to what you meant. 2nd general antonio terrorism said, and how many people do you think the united states defacto killed in bolivia by forcing them to remove cuba's international brigades? well, the residents say it is to the pressure that was pressed on governments like that tension. it was present for libya and critical to and a spell that cuba adults as who, while acting in those countries. and that happened to full be coronavirus pandemic hit those countries so that on trees had and you know, weak health, public health infrastructure as and without the the systems of the cuban medics. and when you hit that pandemic highly, in the very high death rate, i mean that the result was the songstress and what happened was on that last alphabet. but in the context of they started to send these had we read a country,

is it me? what was the response of the trump administration, and in order to undermine the prestige that this court to this was an actual thing . you know, this was, you know, literally a tale of trying to help public health in other countries. the response to trumpet, ministration, huge, you hope, human trafficking saying that these had not slaves and also incredible pressure on but recipient countries. so trying this crazy thousands government form accepting existence designed to thank lives their own contribution. well, bolivia's government is changing by the brazilian ecuadorian ambassadors on the affray. thank you. that's over the show will be back on wednesday, 27 years to the day so called us president elect. joe biden stood up in the senate and argued for what he referred to as the biden crime bill. the bill, which critics say led to the united states having the highest incarceration rate in the world until then. you can join the on the ground following up on you tube,

twitter, facebook, instagram, sound effects guys or financial survival. when customers go by to reduce the price in elf, well, reducing lower that's undercutting, but what's good for markets, it's not good for the global economy. during the vietnam war, u.s. forces neighboring laos. it was a secret war. and for years the american people did not know how much it is officially mouth carry back country per capita, human history, millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country. jordyn wieber thing going to concerts happening even today,

kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago. is the us making amends for the tragedy in laos. won't help to the people need in that little land of mines. moscow leads the peacekeeping mission in the gone after brokering a cease fire between armenia and is a bizarre correspondent head to the former front line in the region. russian personnel will be stationed in while displaced under the new deal. armenians forced out of areas now under control tear down and torched their homes. they say they don't want to leave them for what they see as the enemy. we had a good life, but now we are tearing down the houses. we built ourselves. i know one thing for sure. i wouldn't even want my to find himself in a situation like this. it is very hard, but we do not have any other choice than joe biden is already picking his team to

staff the white house despite donald trump refusing.