your son or daughter or my son or daughter, my wife, your husband, my mother, your parents. it doesn't matter whether or not they were deprived as a youth. it doesn't matter, not whether or not they had no background that enabled them to have to become on a social, i become the socializing the fabric of society. it doesn't matter whether or not they're the victims of society. the end result is they're about to knock my mother on the head with a lead pipe. shoot, my sister beat up my wife, take on my sons. so i don't want to ask, what made them do this? take it off straight. as liberals cheer the election of mass incarceration advocate,, joe biden, we speak the u.k. queens counsellor chris door about why the u.s. u.k. approach to prisons is catastrophic. and why it's now time to shut down prisons here and abroad for good. and why does the us have the highest number of coronavirus deaths with over 240000 and counting when the country militarily

blockade communist cuba has fewer than 200, we speak to the core presenter of cuban covert, 19, public health and solidarity about fighting about endemic with internationalism, polis the more going on today is going on the ground offensive. joe biden ever becomes us president. in january, he will preside over a country with the highest prison population in the world, 26 years after he supported a crime bill. the critics claim was responsible for a system of mass incarceration that imprisons more per capita than stalin or mao. joining me now is the criminal defense lawyer of a 25 years because korea and u.s. justice systems in his new book, justice on trial, radical solutions for a system at breaking point. chris dorky. see them do going underground. a lot of people talking about britain, possibly breaking international law or over a break said, but your new book is so beautiful and eloquently written about britain's justice system. how difficult was it even to write a book at such

a damning account of the judicial system here from the inside. to be honest with you, to spend a bit of time last year, just thinking about what a mess we've made of our justice not just in the last few years, but books sort from for centuries. we've spent time just, you know, looking people up for no reason trying to criminalize drugs with no good to really want and even put children in prisons, you know, from the police just insane. so we have a completely dysfunctional system, and i spent all these years with the only side of the system are just about 200 people on the outside. notice not. you know, we covered the plight of julian, a songe, the weald famous journalist, the un special rapporteur, meals meltzer has been on this program at edge and he was being tortured at belmont prison in london. you know, some people, i don't know, some mainstream media newspapers call it the holiday camps, these british presence, you begin the book and bell much i do on his or her if it place is terrible to

visit. as a visitor, as a lawyer, it takes a long time to get even as a visitor, but to actually be an inmate there, soul destroying. i mean, i went to the special secure unit there and i saw clients in there and you know, describe the conditions in the book. it's a soul is bleak, miserable place, designed to do nothing to the human spirit. and i genuinely see anyone has been any time to which of course, some people say that's what it should be like. but in the book you quote peter clarke lead 29 u.k. chief prison inspector, claiming comparisons with before the 18th twenty's. we are a situation where some of our prisons are no better in the way they treat people than 200 years ago, or even in some cases 2000 years ago. you know, we see at the moment, i mean, i suppose supply yesterday, i suppose or not on friday, they are being locked up for 23 hours a day in a small box. now if that isn't of course psychological torture designed to do

nothing but make people go crazy and actually come out of prison and commit more crimes that i don't know what it's all the, some of the defendants actually feel safer in prisons. i describe some of the really deeply damaged individuals that act it for people who are, you know, with the care system. as many people in prison were who were abused as children about it. as children often end up streets and homeless and our prisons are full of people like that for whom actually, despite the terrible conditions, prison is somehow better than my family outside. and you mentioned, you know, why enjoy life past and go that you'd rather be in prison than 1st equipment of practical advice before we get to the usa and russia. you trace jurisprudent trials, right from mayan civilization. then talk about juries. if anyone's against jury trial in britain, you say, don't worry too much of judges interfere too much because juries, they don't like it. no,

that's true. but my experience of egoless cheer is that anyone, but they're not being told what to do by the judge. and if they feel the judge and given the defendant affect crack of the whip, the jury will side, you know, stuff. you just weaken it really going to decide the verdict that we like and we're going to find the defendant not guilty, whatever you might think. and of course, that's right, because that's what the system requires. that requires the jury's rigs. a verdict, but i've seen it time and again when judges try and kind of influence the jury and sight and see things about the defendant. i mean to rock defense counsel including maybe when in the middle of cross-examination did. i see the jury sit there and say, this isn't fair, and if the jury does think it's fair, they will say not guilty us the great thing about the english jury system. well over in the united states ever, it is talking about president elect joe biden. and perhaps, i mean that lots of disturbing things in your new book, but when it comes to mass incarceration the policy espoused by joe biden, you come up with something called the city of incarceration. just explain how you

see the u.s. justice system since joe biden's reforms. well also that joe biden has been a huge advocate of mass incarceration. i mean that at the, for the truth is that mass incarceration is a great end in the u.s. psyche. and in the u.s. criminal justice system for all sorts of reasons the, that it has prevailed on every single president. the prison population is a site like that. so about a city of incarceration. $2350000.00 people in american prisons and it would be the 5th largest city in america. if it were a city that is quite staggering. i mean, when you think about the papers and population, she's over 80000, but that's the largest in western europe. but there are 2350000000 and the truth of it stays that they have this huge capitalist corporate structure, a private prison environment,

which he massively profits of gold ration. and vested interests, really there's no incentive to change and it cost them hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep sea with $35000000.00 in prison. and you don't want to have the highest rates of bar on a murder. well, i know you say all prisons should be closed. what you say if what you are alleging is true, that the reason things don't change is really because of the kind of corporate low being that goes on with judges. it's a mixture of things. the 1st is that there is a political attachment and it's an attachment that the general public often shares to really tough sentences. so locking people up for as long as possible. that's why you end up with hundreds of thousands of years sentences in some states because people voted for it and people like it. but the other thing is the criminal justice system, including the prison system and many other elements of the system, is a multi $1000000000.00 industry and their own vested interests. and they, they invest the lobby of politicians. they have many,

many candidates who are supported by corporations which are profiting from the criminal justice process. and american politics often, you know, depends heavily on the lobbying of private interests in order to see in order to push policy along. and that, and that, that's a factor has been easily increasing factor not being too american prisons. i've seen the employers of the private sector and it's a really, really scary thing. well, of course we have private prisons here spearheaded by labor and tory government. you have no time for boris johnson's get tough platform in the election in december . just tell me the how of your peers treated this new book of yours because given that it wants to abolish prisons, given that it talks about this, these political pressures on justice and paints such a poor picture of justice. not only in britain in the united states, and i should say, other countries, russia, which will get on to what have you piers said about it. so i think many of my colleagues support the cruelty. yes. it's that the criminal justice system is

completely broken. but when i was writing the book, i traveled all over the us in particular in the deep south with some of the, you know, the most draconian prison sentences or in some of the worst prison conditions. and the irony of it was, i spoke to judges who are responsible for imposing these very long sentences, or even the death penalty. and to a man and woman, they all said, we know it doesn't work. we know these very long sentences, a ridiculous, we know this, an 18 year old to prison for the rest of his natural life. for drugs, crime is easy, a moral and counterproductive and ridiculous, be draining and expensive to the state and destroys whole communities. and my sense of, well, why do you do it then? they say, because if we didn't impose sentences like that, no one would vote for us and we wouldn't have a job. he's going back to democracy. i mean, joe biden was also playing as well as supporting the crime bill that the war on drugs must be fought central in your book. not only in the united states. you also talk about what happened in russia and russia came into crimea. tell me about why

drugs are so important to the injustice that you document in the book. as i describe in the book, i think i managed to, i mean i had a lot of research on the book. i managed to find examples of the early human 2000000 years ago, taking psychotropic drugs in the fall with psychotropic plots, and sort of co evolving by using psychotropics as off the development of the human species. and the truth is that people have taken drugs of one kind or nama, since time began, and they always will. and so the problem with criminalizing something which is so fundamental to who we are, all we do is that it's never going to work. and when you criminalize it, all you do, she creates huge black market. huge opportunities for profit, for all in all as criminals and sob sob, backbite by government. so all corruption in the state. all this just operating is these massive international crime. it works better. you have an unregulated losses,

organized crime market. what follows is types, what follows these violence, what follows is murder on the streets. but in all of these, i mean, you talk about the london bridge attacks, you and i so many different elements of jurisprudence. you seem to be alleging by the end of the book that there's a kind of totalitarian conditioning amongst the public about what justice is. and that's why we allow the crimes of the justice system to continue. i think i think it's a cultural rather than a totalitarian mindset and we in certainly the english speaking world in britain and the us in particular. yet there has been this very strong drawing tools, punishment as being the aim of the system, as opposed to what most people might think the point of the system is which he said reduce the amount of crime. and there's a conflict between those 2 things. if the morally punishing a reader,

tony in way are there in the full physical chastize with the death penalty, all very loan for tony in prison sentences, the more crime you get, what the public thinks, which is to quote unquote punish criminals and crack down is actually the fame that results in more crime in our society, you say prison does not work every single day of every single prison sentence makes a society poor. i've got to just quickly, briefly ask you about the effect of coronavirus on defendants. maybe a whole chambers of your colleagues chambers. how worried are you about coronavirus and british presence? it's a really serious problem on 2 fronts. one of coles is that the faction rates in prison, and that been these big outbreaks in certain institutions, but more widely. and as i say, our speech spoken supplier's just in the last couple of days who are via video conferencing in prison. and they are telling me of the, of the detroit or a mental health crisis that's developing because they are being locked up. they are

there, the education process in prison is now being closed. they're not out any visitors. and you imagine that sitting in a cell as they often often 22 or 23 hours a day with nothing to do nowhere to go, no natural light and not even allowed to visit us because anybody from the outside world. and i spoke to tom on friday, he said he'd been in this condition for now for since the beginning of march. so it's about 8 or 9 months, even fictive solitary confinement. and so we are, you know, growth of ours is on a massive impact on people in prison. and you know, you, the public can say, well too bad, they deserve it. but those people in prison are going to come out and they give you all the streets either in a month or year or in 10 years. and the more you damage them on the inside, the more damage they will do to us when they come out. crystal, casey, thank you. after the break with new u.s. sanctions to come into force against cuba, what example is washington still so afraid of and what lessons can new liberal

countries like britain, which is transferred billions into private corporations to learn from a country with fewer than $200.00 dead. and that spawns competition for cooperation in the fight against coronavirus. all the more coming up about to have going on the ground is facing probably his last battle as president will be tried over the generals and built by his foreign policy pick up there with the neo cons again in control.

welcome back. britain has chosen the new labor, tory part of privatized city, consultancies to help fight coronavirus now has the worst death toll in europe. this while its closest military ally, the usa with nearly as high a death by capita rate as the u.k. chooses to wage economic war on the island of cuba. what is washington afraid of that cuba has fewer than 200 dead from coated. joining me from glasgow is dr. helen yaf, a who appears in the new documentary, cuba and coven, 1000 public health science and solidarity. helen, thanks so much for going back on to tell me how a documentary can even be made, let alone the fact that it's producing vaccines because everyone in britain is focused on the scandal hit pfizer company as our greatest hope. wow. when we were doing ok and she at that point you had one trials, and it's time we showed the documentary that humans now have 3, and i can send vaccines on trial and 2 of them already wealthy. powerful and i'm

saying is just incredible. when you think, you know that this is a small island nation and that's has its objects to 60 years of science and i mean facts and terrible time of carbon. if you thought it was him, all right, only for a full t. new measure and sanctions are the trumpet. ministrations that is it, it's really incredible. we had the convention, he is firing to see, you know, why and yet still says, let's say all the bunch of really saving lives and livelihoods. you know what americans watching? this will say, it's a dictatorship. all those brigades, the henry review brigades, we saw pictures of in italy trying to save the lives of italians. they're actually human trafficked doctors and nurses. hey, he kind of answer that in the documentary, tell me about how that may not be right. now,

while we were really not he to be had, was in one of the 50 free medical specialists who sued not only when he was the epicenter of the global pandemic back in late march. and he and he, and you know, he hung that accusation. he said, all right, i am not this life. i made my own decision that he explained his own journey in relation to you and the fact that he only you know, right. and the medics. well, i and you know, i asked if they wanted to live in a system where that's literally sitting in the attic, will someone file 500 past, ready to record and, you know, and i want some didn't these trials and, you know, last fall, this was my opportunity to impress as they were night lights,

laurie could save president bush at that period. i don't just ignore you and you know he did, this is his own patient and you mean he found out that you really felt like he and i hadn't started to help patients. ok, well if you watch this documentary, maybe you'll learn different. but if you look at so-called, mainstream media, they're talking about pfizer, about astra zeneca, both big pharma multinationals and kovi. and why do you think we don't hear about the drugs mentioned in the documentary and just fins? all these different treatments, let alone the fact that the revolution itself was and was, it was key. one of these camp ject is a biotech. they can run by a tech set. sa is quite unique. the way it was founded very early on in the dependent of our psychology as a field. and it was founded by 981. so that was after and he said,

can i say it said 5 in the united states and the situation because this is the corner me the sessions i'm going to make is it 100 percent safe towns and all of the different institutions, the west side. and if it, how, which is in heaven now, walker, i don't compete, they don't seek to thank for it all that the best production and the whole industry set up to meet public health, all the population is a credible inspiration. mean,, the sector between the public health concepts hat and the education sector. so b., if that is the model that essentially undermines base as you think this mainstream . this also says only the free market, only in profits through competition, how we have efficient outcome. now i would say that this response is that we've seen in countries around, well, it's kind of in that mix as candidates,

well use it, values and principles on which each side is organized and it has its own by its us to question the meaning of the fish, when you know we have a public health, how being that? all right, the speculative race or profits, because even if there is an absolute vaccines, there was a good many questions to be asked about. how will all companies access is and at what cost they ship to be able to access that they need to save lives for the cubans? because of the u.s. blockade. it's been 5000000000 pools that they want to call their own facts. i mean, we saw that with the announcement about the trials of a fire for charles, the share price is you know, immediately respond and you know, you have to wonder what i think is priced and what say that it is also a tribute in the mobile side as a great deal more,

right. and it is henry really being taking some of our thoughts or that, you know, has been an event that credit lines here and using the more of a while. and i wouldn't expect them to rate be a great deal more racial off to the human medicine. all i'm really showing some promise is even at a new british joint venture that tension or preventing death in critically ill and seriously ill patients appropriately and yet have there isn't he? in the documentary, there's a u.c.l., link, the university college london. how these get colleges not afraid of u.s., 3rd party sanctions, if they cooperate on health care development with cuba. the issue of u.s. sanctions is a difficult one. there is and you can legislation that makes it illegal for the u.s. mckay to be in full state against and individuals companies interests and i'm saying

not rise. your question why that legislation is at risk. all the collaboration place with you see out of the states and they may write one of the hack ventilates as humans and our way copy they all said and used to create these machines that was fundraise through recent court battles. cubans in the u.k. and, but you know, even for that as a fundraising campaign to save lives, they have to be very careful about which use and how they said, can they share the information because money, right. or, you know, if you can examine the cultural events issues has a whole event. right. all right. and, well, i hate how and of all because the u.s.

. ok. ok. i want to get on in a moment. don't know why washington is so seemingly afraid of the cuban he examined . but i don't know whether you've noticed, but independence age is a committee advising which is named after the committee advising boris johnson, the government. i don't know whether you think they sound like dr. che guevara, because in the documentary, it's clear that there are echoes of what independent sages saying here that it is localized n.h.s. health care. that is the way forward to combating coronavirus, as opposed to morris johnson's a 12000000000 pound commission to die. do auditing hand these big city financial consultancies. what he, what do you make of this difference about why britain has 50000 dead and kuma only 150 give or has less than 250. i think the documentary trying to ape that the, it's essential tool in a way that, you know, it's all contagion and is the family health. and these are

the family has existed in every community. he has the highest ratio of doctors, pretty 6, protestant family doctors in my community. they live among my patients, even the adults, it's not my family or not. if i think so help is available and you pour out that i then have a system where they categorize the house, they took all of that community. so they immediately know if a disease, psychiatry comes along that affects people who are for spiritual problems. they immediately might agree with the former patients and the most incredible elements of their response to every team has being to carry on and increase the process anyway, which is going to every home in that community. and they've been assisted by 28000 medical students. but of course, harry, unless you know prostitutes,

i'm from hell. and i went to whole every time. so they were entities, are they not 100 souls? and they are asked everyone in the house how, you know, how they were feeling. and they were basically tracking down when they had a suspected case instead of leaving them in the community, they were ordered taken to a medical facility or an isolation center where they test supervised or n.t. in these isolation sets rates. now they call them isolation is taking place at home, but they were also doing contract tracing at a very secret not just text message is turning out of people's souls being anyone who had been a contact till they had been tested themselves really seriously. and this is a harley approach and how has this,

which is credential over at your and having this at all? how many thought how ironic that seems to be the system by any and by jon snow in london with color hundreds of years ago. and what do you make then finally of the allegations in the documentary that washington has weaponized coronavirus in complete contravention to what you meant. 2nd general antonio terrorist said, and how many people do you think the united states defacto killed in bolivia by forcing them to remove cuba's international brigade? well, the residents say it is to the pressure that was pressed on governments like that tension. it was brazil for libya and critical to spell the cuban doctors who, while acting in most countries. and that happened to full be coronavirus pandemic hit those countries. so that on trees had and you know, weak health, public health infrastructure as and without the the systems of the cuban medics.

and when you're hit with that pandemic of highly infectious, the very high death rate. i mean that the result was the songstress and what happened was that the cubans have only met that in the context of a pandemic. they started to send these henry gates at countries. what was the response of the trump administration? and in order to undermine press t.v. that this was, this wasn't a compassionate, you know, this was, you know, literally it did of trying to help oblate health. in other countries. it was, i was trying to ministration huge. you book human trafficking saying that these had not slaves and also incredible pressure on but recipient countries. so trying this crazy government, all except thing exists that the signed thank lives their own country. well,

bolivia's government is changing by the brazilian ecuadorian ambassadors on the ground after a thank you. that's over the show will be back on wednesday, 27 years in the day, so called u.s. president elect joe biden stood up in the senate and argued for what he referred to as the biden crime bill. the bill, which critics say led to the united states having the highest incarceration rate in the world until then, you can join the underground following up on you tube, twitter, facebook, instagram, something else. look forward to talking to that technology should work for people i robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except when such orders to conflict with the 1st law. show your identification or should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point is to create conflict areas with artificial intelligence, where some of the robot

must protect its own existence. as during the vietnam war, us forces neighboring laos. it was a secret war. and for years the american people did not know until our fellow, my skin is officially the mouth. heavily bombed country per capita. human history, millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country. jordyn wieber. even today, kids in laos full victim to the bombs dropped decades ago is the us making amends for the tragedy in laos won't help to the people need in that little

breaking news this hour, against the backdrop of mass protests. the armenian president pulls for the government to resign, parliamentary elections to be pulled. therefore it is a week of public anger over the armenia, azerbaijan peace deal with ending and the conflicts in the book. want to top out the egg play. meanwhile, displaced done to the new deal on media and forced out of the areas now under the control of azerbaijan, tad down on the torch homes. they say they don't want to leave them for what they see as the enemy. we have a good life. now we are tearing down the houses, we build stuff, so i know one thing for sure. i wouldn't even want my, anybody to find himself in a situation like this. it is very hard,

but we do not have any other choice.