i'm ashen, are times when we're going on the run on the eve of the 12th brick, some of the most important meeting of the year into breaking the stranglehold of hedge a moment of power coming up on the show. does it matter whether or not the person that is a costume, your son or daughter, or my son or daughter? my wife, your husband? my mother, your parents. it doesn't matter whether or not they were deprived as a youth. it doesn't matter not whether or not they had no background that enabled them to have to become a social. 'd i become socialized into the fabric of society. it doesn't matter whether or not they're the victims of society. the end result is they're about to knock my mother on the head with a lead pipe. shoot, my sister beat up my wife, take on my sons. so i don't want to ask what made them do this? they must take it straight as liberals cheer the election of mass incarceration,

advocate, joe biden, we speak the u.k., queen's counselor chris door about why the u.s. u.k. approach to prisons is catastrophic. and why it's now time to shut down prisons here and abroad for good. and why does the us have the highest number of coronavirus deaths with over 240000 counting when the country to militarily blockade communist cuba has fewer than 200. we speak to the core presenter of cuban covert, 19, public health and solidarity about fighting about endemic with internationalism. oliseh more going on today is going underground. a 1st of joe biden ever becomes us president. in january, he will preside over a country with the highest prison population in the world, 26 years after he supported a crime bill. the critics claim was responsible for a system of math incarceration that imprisons more per capita than stalin or mao. joining me now as a criminal defense lawyer of a 25 years because korea and us justice systems in his new book, justice on trial, radical solutions for a system at breaking point,

chris dorky press will come do going underground. a lot of people talking about britain, possibly breaking international law or over a break said, but your new book is so beautiful and eloquently written about britain's justice system. how difficult was it even to write a book at such a damning account of the judicial system here from the inside. to be honest with you, to spend a bit of time last year, just thinking about what a mess we've made of our justice, not just in the last few years, but books work from for centuries. we've spent time just, you know, looking people up for no reason trying to criminalize drugs with no good to really want and even put children in prisons, you know, from the police just insane. so we have a completely dysfunctional system, and i spent all these years with you on the side of the system. i just think it's about time the people on the outside notice not. you know, we covered the plight of julian, a songe, the weald famous journalist, the un special rapporteur,

meals meltzer has been on this program at the edge and he was being tortured at belmont prison in london. you know, some people, i don't know, some mainstream media newspapers call it the holiday camps, these british presence, you begin the book and bell much i do on his or her if it place is terrible to visit. as a visitor, as a lawyer, it takes a long time to get even as a visitor, but to actually be an inmate there, soul destroying. i mean, i went to the special secure unit there and i saw clients in there and you know, describe the conditions in the book. it's a soul is bleak, miserable place, designed to do nothing of the human spirit. and i genuinely see anyone has been anytime to which of course, some people say that's what it should be like. but in the book you quote peter clarke, the 20 or 9 u.k. chief prison inspector, claiming comparisons with before the 18th twenty's. we are a situation where some of our prisons are no better in the way they treat people than 200 years ago, or even in some cases 2000 years ago. you know,

we particularly at the moment, i mean, i suppose supply and yesterday i suppose are not on friday. they are being locked up for 23 hours a day in a small box. now if that isn't of course psychological torture designed to do nothing but make people go crazy and actually come out of prison and commit more crimes that i don't know what it's all the, some of the defendants actually feel safer in prisons. i describe some of the really deeply damaged individuals that act it for people who are, you know, with the care system as many people in prison where they were abused as children about it. as children often end up streets and homeless and our prisons are full of people like that for whom actually, despite the terrible conditions, prison is somehow better than my family outside. and you mentioned, you know, what i enjoy life was to go up that road be in for as a, the 1st quick minute of practical advice. before we get to the usa and russia,

you trace jurisprudent trials, right? from mayan civilization. then talk about juries. if anyone's against jury trial in britain, you say, don't worry too much of judges interfere too much because juries, they don't like it. no, that's true. but my experience of egoless cheer is that that anyone by not being told what to do by the judge. and if they feel the judge and given the defendant affect crack of the whip, the jury will side, you know, stuff. you just weaken it. really going to decide the verdict that we like and we're going to find the defendant not guilty, whatever you might think. and of course, that's right, because that's what the system requires. that requires the jury's rids a verdict. but i've seen it time and again, when judges try and kind of influence the jury and sight and see things about the defendant. i mean to rock defense counsel, including maybe when in the middle cross-examination did you see the jury sit there and say, this isn't fair? and if the jury does think it's fair, they will say not guilty us the great thing about the english jury system. well,

over in the united states, everyone is talking about president elect joe biden, and perhaps i mean that lots of disturbing things in your new book, but when it comes to mass incarceration the policy espoused by joe biden, you come up with something called the city of incarceration just explain how you see the u.s. justice system since joe biden's reforms. well also that joe biden has been a huge advocate of mass incarceration. i mean that at the for the truth is that mass incarceration is a great and in the u.s. psyche. and in the u.s. criminal justice system for all sorts of reasons the, that it has prevailed on every single president, the prison population, as i say, are not true. so about a city of incarceration. 2350000 people in american prisons and it would be the 5th largest city in america. if it were a city that is quite staggering. i mean, when you think about the papers and population, she's over 80000,

but that's the largest in western europe. but there are 2350000000, and the truth of it is that they have this huge capitalist corporate structure, a private prison environment, which he massively profits of operations. and vested interests that really there's no incentive to change and it cost them hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep see with $35000000.00 in prison and you know what they have the highest rates of guarana murder? well, i know you say all prisons should be closed. what you say if what you are alleging is true, that the reason things don't change is really because of the kind of corporate low being that goes on with judges. it's a mixture of things. the 1st is that there is a political attachment and it's an attachment that the general public often shares to really tough sentences. so locking people up for as long as possible. that's why you end up with hundreds or thousands of years sentences in some states because

people voted for it and people like it. but the other thing is the criminal justice system, including the prison system and many other elements of the system, is a multi $1000000000.00 industry and their own vested interests. and they, they invest the lobby of politicians. they have many, many candidates who are supported by corporations which are profiting from the criminal justice process. and american politics often, you know, depends heavily on the lobbying of private interests in order to see it in order to push policy along. and that or not, that's a factor has been easily increasing factor not being too american prisons. i've seen the employers of the private sector and it's a really, really scary thing. well, of course we have private prisons here spearheaded by labor and tory government. you have no time for boris johnson's get tough platform in the election in december . just tell me the how of your peers treated this new book of yours because given that it wants to abolish prisons, given that it talks about this,

these political pressures on justice and paints such a poor picture of justice. not only in britain in the united states, and i should say, other countries, russia, which will get on to what have you piers said about it. so i think many of my colleagues support the cruelty. yes. it's that the criminal justice system is completely broken. but when i was writing the book, i traveled all over the us in particular in the deep south with some of the, you know, the most draconian prison sentences are imposed on some of the worst prison conditions. and the irony of it was, i spoke to judges who are responsible for imposing these very long sentences, or even the death penalty. and to a man and woman, they all said, we know it doesn't work. we know these very long sentences, a ridiculous, we know this, an 18 year old to prison for the rest of his natural life. for drugs, crime is easy, a moral and counterproductive and ridiculously draining and expensive to the state and destroys whole communities. and my sense of, well, why do you do it then? they say, because if we didn't impose sentences like that,

no one would vote for us and we wouldn't have a job. he's going back to democracy. i mean, joe biden was also playing as well as supporting the crime bill that the war on drugs must be fought central in your book. not only in the united states. you also talk about what happened in russia and russia came into crimea. tell me about why drugs are so important to the injustice that you document in the book. as i describe in the book i managed to, i mean i had a lot of research on the book. i managed to find examples of the early human 2000000 years ago. taking psychotropic drugs in the fall with psychotropic plots, and sort of co-evolve by using psychotropics as part of the development of the human species. and the truth is that people have taken drugs of one kind or nama, since time began, and they always will. and so the problem with criminalizing something which is so fundamental to who we are, all we do is that it's never going to work. and when you criminalize it,

all you do, if you create these sheaves, black market, huge opportunities for profit, for all in all as criminals and sob sob, backbite by government. so all corruption in the state, all this just operating is these massive international crime. it works better, you have an unregulated losses, organized crime market. what follows is types, what follows is violence, what follows is murder on the streets. but in all of these, i mean, you talk about the london bridge attacks, you and i so many different elements of jurisprudence. you seem to be alleging by the end of the book that there's a kind of totalitarian conditioning amongst the public about what justice is. and that's why we have the crimes of the justice system to continue. i think i think it's a cultural rather than a totalitarian mindset and we in certainly the english speaking world in britain and the us in particular. yet there has been these very strong dry tools

punishment as being the aim of the system, as opposed to what most people might think the point of the system is which he said reduce the amount of crime. and there's a conflict between those 2 things. if the morning punish in a reader, tony in way are there in the form of physical chastisement, the death penalty, all very loan for tony in prison sentences, the more crime you get, what the public thinks, which is to quote unquote punish criminals. a crackdown is actually the feeling that results in more crime, in our society. you say prison does not work every single day of every single prison sentence makes a society poor. i'm going to just quickly briefly ask you about the effect of coronavirus on defendants. maybe a whole chambers of your colleagues chambers. how worried are you about coronavirus and british presence? it's a really serious problem on 2 fronts. one of causes could be the faction rights in prison. and that been these big outbreaks in certain institutions,

but more widely. and as i say, our speech spoken to class just in the last couple of days who are via video conferencing in prison. and they are telling me of the, of the detroit for a mental health crisis that's developing because they are being locked up. they are there, the education process in prison is now being closed. they're not out any visitors. and can you imagine that sitting in a cell as they often often 22 or 23 hours a day with nothing to do, no way to go? no natural light and not even allowed to visit us because anybody from the outside world. and i spoke to tom friday, he said he'd been in this condition for now for since the beginning of march. so it's about 8 or 9 months, even fictive solitary confinement. and so we, you know, grow out of our seats on a massive impact on people in prison. and you know, you, the public can say, well too bad, they deserve it. but those people in prison are going to come out and they get

a mule, the streets, either in a month or year or in 10 years. and the more you damage them on the inside, the more damage they will do to us when they come out. crystal, casey, thank you. after the break with new u.s. sanctions to come into force against cuba, what example is washington still so afraid of and what lessons can new liberal countries like britain, which is transferred billions into private corporations to learn from a country with fewer than $200.00 dead. and that spawns competition for cooperation in the fight against coronavirus. all the small coming up about to have going on the ground just by that will survive. when customers go by now, well reduce some lower that's undercutting, but what's good for markets? it's not good for the global economy is facing probably

just as president, the triumph over the generals, and by his foreign policy. where with a neo cons, again in control. welcome back. britain has chosen the new labor, tory party of privatized city, consultancies to help fight coronavirus now has the worst death toll in europe. this while its closest military ally, the usa with nearly as high a death, but capita rate as the u.k. chooses to wage economic war on the island of cuba. what is washington afraid of that cuba has fewer than $200.00 dead from coated. joining me from glasgow is dr. helen yoffe, a who appears in the new documentary, cuba, in coven,

1000 public health science and solidarity. helen, thanks so much for going back on to tell me how a documentary can even be made, let alone the fact that it's producing vaccines because everyone in britain it's focused on the scandal, had to fight as a company, as our greatest hope. when we were doing the interview, so the talk and she had that point, do you have one foot out registering for clinical trials parts? by the time we showed the documentary that cubans now have free and can send back scenes of trial and 2 of them already wealthy, powerful and i'm saying is just incredible when you think, you know that this is a small island nation and that's has been subject to 60 years of science,, i mean fact and terrible time of year, but it was hit by own farfel, t., new measure and sanctions are the trumpet. ministrations that is it, it's really incredible. we had the whole convention. he is firing to see, you know,

why and yet still says, let's say all the bunch of really saving lives and livelihoods. you know what americans watching? this will say, it's a dictatorship. all those brigades, the henry review brigades, we saw pictures of in italy trying to save the lives of italians. they're actually human trafficked doctors and nurses. hey, he kind of answer that in the documentary. tell me about how that may not be right now. well, we were really not he to be had was in one of the 50 free medical specialists who sued not only where the wealthy ecus said all of the global pandemic back in late march. and, and, and, and, you know, he hung that accusation. he said, all right, i am lost its life. i made my own decision that he explained his own journey in

relation to and placed it on me hard every night and the cuban medics. well, i and you know, i asked if they wanted to live in a system where that's literally sitting in the attic, will someone file 500 past, ready to record? and you know, he and i want to study these trials and you know, last christmas i'll be impressed. if they were night lights lives could be saved. but president bush at that period i would just ignore you and you know, he did. this is his vocation and you mean he found out that you really felt that he and i hadn't started to help patients. ok, well if you watch this documentary, maybe you'll learn different. but if you look at so-called, mainstream media,

they're talking about phase or about astra. zeneca, both big pharma multinationals and covert and why do you think we don't hear about the drugs mentioned in the documentary and just fins? all these different treatments, let alone the fact that the revolution itself was, was, it was key. one of these camp ject is a biotech. they can run by and take set side is quite unique the way it was founded very early on in the dependent of our psychology as a field. and it was founded 9081. so that was after, and he said, can i say it's a fab in the united states and the situation because it's this is that as a corner me the session it's going to make is it 100 percent safe towns and all of the different institutions west side and if it, how, which is in heaven now, walker, i don't compete, they don't seek to thank for it all that the production and the whole industry set

up to meet public health to all the population is a credible inspiration mean sets up with the public health concepts that and the education sector. so it's a model that essentially undermines based as you think this mainstream. this poll says that is only the free market, only in pursuit of profit through competition. how we have efficient outcomes. now i would say that this response is that we've seen in countries around that much as kind of its values values and the principles on which each side is open eyes. and it has gone by. it's asked to question the meaning of the fish. when you know you have a public health, how be met by the speculative race or profits, because even if there is an absolute vaccines that was made in many pressure,

to be honest, how will all countries have access and at what cost will it back up a ship to be able to access that they need to save lives for the cubans. closer to the us, it's been 53 important that banks want to pull their own facts. i mean, we saw that with the announcement about the trials of fire for charles, the share price. that is, you know, immediately respond and you know, you have to wonder what i think is priced and what size that it is. also a tribute in the mobile side as a great deal of cooperation. and it is henry really being taking some of our thoughts. all that, you know, has been an event that he took to credit for credit lines here and using them more of a while. and i would think expect them to rate me a great deal more racial off to the human medicine. all i'm really showing some

promise is even at a new british joint venture that's up to tension or preventing that critically ill and seriously ill. yeah. that there isn't in the documentary, there's a u.c.l. link, the university college london are these good colleges, not afraid of us, 3rd party sanctions, if they cooperate on healthcare development with cuba, the she wants us sentients is a difficult one. there is and you can legislate ation that makes it illegal for the us mckay to be in full state and individuals and companies interests and i'm the same applies your question why that legislation is at risk also that's the issue at the collaboration and so i see if you see out of the states, they may write one of the hack them to make cubans and

a copy. they all said and used halts to create these machines that was fundraise through in recent court finals. cubans in the u.k. and, but you know, even for that as a fundraising campaign to save lives, they have to be very careful about which class they use and how they said, can they share the information because money, right. or, you know, if you can examine the cultural events issues has a whole event. right. all right. and, well, i hate how and of course, the u.s. . ok. i want to get on in a moment. don't know why washington is so seemingly afraid of the cuban. he examined, but i don't know whether you've noticed, but independence age is a committee advising which is named after the committee advising bars on to the government. i don't know whether you think they sound like dr. che guevara, because in the documentary, it's clear that there are echoes of what independent sages saying here that it is

localized n.h.s. health care that is the way forward to combating coronavirus as opposed to morris johnson's a 12000000000 pound commission. to dido are doing hand these big city, financial consultancy is what he, what do you make of this difference about why britain has 50000 dead and kimber, only 850, give or has less than 250. i think the goal should be trying to make that the sensual tool in a way that, you know, it's all contagion and is the family health. and it's right. these are the family photos exist in every community. here has the highest ratio of not to a person, pretty 6000, only go to the community, they live among my patients. even the adults, it's got my family over not at 5 in the clinic. so help is available and you who

are out there have a system where they categorize the house, they took all of that community. so they immediately know if a disease like highly comes along that i have affects people who are for spiritual problems. they immediately might agree with the former patients and the most incredible and elements of their response have been 19, has being too heavy on, i mean increase the process anyway, which is going to visit every home in that community. and they've been assisted by 28000 medical students, of course, can carry on their studies at the universities. i'm funny and i went to whole every day. so they were entities, are they not 100 souls? and they are asked at every one in the house. how you know, how they were feeling, and they were basically tracking down when they had a suspected case, instead of leaving them in the community, they were ordered taken to

a medical facility or an isolation center where they test. it was a supervised warranty in these isolation sets rates. now they name how their isolation take place, that they were also doing contract tracing in a very secret not just text message is tiny, not people. goals being anyone who has been a concern that they have been tested really seriously. and this is a harley approach and how has this which is credential over at your and having this at all. how ironic that seems to be the system by any and by jon snow in london with color hundreds of years ago. and what do you make then? finally of the allegations in the documentary that washington has weaponized coronavirus in complete contravention to what you meant. 2nd general antonio

terrorist said, and how many people you think the united states defacto killed in bolivia by forcing them to remove cuba's international brigades? well, the residents say it is to the pressure that was pressed on governments like that tension. it was brazil for libya and critical to and a spell, the cuban doctors who, while acting in those countries. and that happened to full, the coronavirus pandemic hit those countries. so that on trees had and you know, weak health, public health infrastructure as and without the the systems of the cuban medics. and when you hit that, pandemic highly infectious, the very high death rate. i mean that the result was the songstress and what happened was that the cubans have only met for that in the context of a pandemic. they started to send these 10, we really hate it to countries. what was the response of the trump administration?

and in order to undermine press t.v. at this point to you, because this was a compassionate, you know, it was, you know, literally it did of trying to help public health in other countries. it is the response of the trumpet ministration. hughes, he wrote human trafficking saying that these i don't slaves and also incredible pressure on but recipient countries. so trying this crazy thousands government home except thing exists that's designed to say lives of their own country. well, libya's government is changing by the brazilian ecuadorian ambassadors on the ground after a thank you. that's over the show will be back on wednesday, 27 years to the day so called u.s. president elect joe biden stood up in the senate and argued for what he referred to as the biden crime bill. the bill, which critics say led to the united states having the highest incarceration rate in the world until then you can join the underground following up on you tube, twitter, facebook, instagram. sam was

always on the bull, but at least nationally big city, bright lights. you jump, but you know, geez, and many dangers to the rest of the glacier. they're going to it's also a city where not just $300000.00 crimes are committed every year. doesn't it? for the last, when they do your most, it's still through the reserve least one police officer think every 200 residents in russia's capital lost on the list. i think you missed most. we all put the number of troops that will not go with an act or sing along with the muslims who would have to last

you know it so that you know whether to avoid internal political upheavals holding early parliamentary elections is inevitable. staring down the barrel of mass protests, the president of armenia calls for the government to resign and hold early parliamentary elections that follows a week of public anger over the peace deal between armenia and azerbaijan, which halted the conflict in a corner car obama. meanwhile, displaced under the new deal, armenians tear down and torched their homes as they are forced out of areas now controlled by azerbaijan. they say they don't want to leave them for who they say is the enemy. and we had a good life. now we are tearing down the houses, we build stuff so i know one thing for sure.