on welcome to worlds apart from all their differences in style, joe biden. and joel trump not that divergent when it comes to the promises they're making. today, american people acting before a tourist building back that are making sure that the rules of international trade on the rigged against used companies. this is not trump, this is biden, while the differences in style, until one of them to be really enough for a major change in u.s. policy. to discuss that, i'm now joined by ploughs larsen professor at the university of north carolina at chapel hill and aspirate on u.s. foreign policy and transatlantic relations. professor larsen,

it's good to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. you're welcome. it's a nice to be here. well,, he said recently that whatever are the final results of the u.s., national, they've, your law abiding will refute the asian or policies because, you know, remains weak rockley in crowds. and i am with you don't know why that ad council just that there was an almost full bipartisan commission or policies. because if you look at joe biden's least promise is especially in the domestic they really look like restyled paste role charms label. and worst of what a nickel class b. shaking, international trade. what share for all dairy carrots challenged the democrats really rejected the substance of his policies. yet they would like to do. i think if you'll say it's see a real shift. i mean,

the problem is donald trump was of course and still is that he's not a real democrat if keely authoritarian tendencies. we see that in his refusal to leave the white collar to concede the election to joe biden, though it's pretty clear that yes, lost the election. even republican senator, now isn't there, at least i learned behavior asking you know about, oh yeah. absent of policy. yeah, exactly. and so joe biden, bill has announced he will convene a summit for democracy, so he wants to rally americans and us round the table again to really make them more coherent to improve the relationship, particularly c. or p. and ls suno. and the relations was in nato. relations was in the e.u. back if straight he had a very hostile, almost relationship to international folks. so biden will have

a totally different policy value of the less and above all, he seems to realize that the united states is a lot stronger to get its allies rather than to go it alone. and under. and the trump, we saw a more unilateral america going to do on policy. and i think that will change fundamentally in one of your recent analysis of times. foreign policy you single out, it's 3 primary strands, disengaging the u.s. from local politics, does deigning allies, you just retreated. that point right now and defriended are pratik later. he's now, naturally as a russian has and perhaps act in your view as a shield for one set arc radek leader. i want to ask you specifically, what does it mean befriending autocratic leaders? well, we have very disconcerting illnesses under trumps that for example, trump became very close to saudi arabian crown prince. and you know that the crown,

this was at least implicated in the murder of so generalists kushal b. and by everybody that trump did not say a word about it. instead of that he continued having very good relations. a lot of personal relations with members of this administration at that same also, he did not criticize what was going on in your oprah goddy hungry and poland, and the presently, or to credit policies of these 2 countries. cus, you know, it's condemned. it is trying to do something about it. trump has kept quiet though, saying that you would see that and that i read that proposal. r.c. seemed to be equating public statements rapturing to policy and has studied and foreign policy in the united states and how it started as i'm sure you teach your students, that words are not the same as actions. absolutely. but like statements don't make up a policy, in fact, and those that you will be diametrically opposed to one another. so again, let's not look at public statements. i read there is a major difference in style in persona and character, but there is

a personal things i am asking you about the substantive change in the course of the united states. and again, in full is the terms because at least in the liberal circles, they don't love using this befriending autocratic leaders cliche. but what does it mean in adelaide equal terms? they've got all of that policy in the means of that policy and the possible outcomes of that policy in that he's been, are obviously, you know, for example, as i mentioned, the summit off democracy, of course, people where the wind is growing in the united states. and he builds, if you're in her, i want to sell your bill supports the e.u. regarding the policy towards poland in hungary, while trump has indirectly, but big keeping quiet by expressing sympathies as expressed support for these people. and that of course in boulder. and you don't, you won't see that still in bold meant and of having said that, but by the bill of course, all you realize the strategic relationship,

the united states has to sortie arabia. you will not stroll in saudi arabia into an enemy, and no one would expect that. on the other hand, you've not let the crown prince get away with these sort of calls. can i ask you something about these women? why is prison that it was in office together with president obama? they tell him that allowed saudi arabia to launch one of the most murderous, bloodiest wars there is, has still continuing right now. i mean, i understand that there is a certain air resonance, about the absolute horrific nature of that one killing. but under biden and obama, hundreds of thousands of such killings have been taking place. can you really put down this? so your ministry of their coverage of the wall is a human conducted for saudi arabia and of those have you stopped to do it while obama was in power? and it's certainly this one. it's a black, the obama administration,

the only one. i don't know, not saying that that's one of my points that they didn't do anything about it, but biden was, of course, vice president. he did have an influence obama could if i was in the end he did wasn't the guy would to seduce issues. that clearly was a president that is different now. and of course also in the last few years or so, you merican statements have looked for what is going on in that part of the world. how to start troy has become how terrible the human cost has been. so i would expect to reverse that course and not too soon for saudi arabia or yes said so, and of course us, no god, these are critics issues and they say things during combat. it's therefore up when these statements, but i would expect a bite to do so. it clearly is more in favor of human rights, for example, in general. then for example, president trump, who never even use a term of human rights. well, you didn't hear my next question, and i think it's partially time that ties meant that my questions about your choice

of vocabulary that is befriending the autocratic leader, is because it's true that donald trump had a more pragmatic, last moralistic approach to foreign policy. and i think it's high time where the will to debate how we define morality in international relations. what is good and what is bad? what are the limits? the legitimate uses of military power, so that we don't see carnage like we saw in yemen in libya, in iraq, all of which were born out of good moralistic intentions. repeat again. and my question to you is don't you think that by using east liberal catchphrase is befriending, which is essentially an attack by association. you're out in a, we kind of flashing the need for the world to have that conversation. and if you, if you look around the world is really crying out for it because all the major problems we have right now, refugees, internally displaced and down,

makes immigration, the riser for a populace, and they can all be tied to the war. it's abandoned louis. i know, and i think, i think you can agree that human rights are something to do was killing people and killing people is always a bad idea. and that applies to all countries be. it's the united states, or russia, or china, or other great out, you know, gay or getting involved or stopping was pushing was annexing. countries that are trying to develop incursions and countries is a bad sink. and biden is a case here for him. and yours in proportion, right, actually declined considerably because i feel the only reason to russians are, as i'm always there really a lot have now the signal light was low there, you cannot compare something like that. do you look, let's say an operation and leave the average again, is the same matter of analysis. you can't compare, compare the killing of to shaw gets you the bloody war in vietnam that the obama administration has oversaw. so the question is,

who is really moral and these in order? i mean, so we are abs, not just gilchrist, show you that of course, very active in the game. and in other conflicts around the world or not, or didn't you now do a final round on the ministry stand. yeah, we might get the money horse and united states needs to do something about that. and biden has that he would do so well. belief in whether he will follow up, we don't know, costs you will not be a perfect president. he will not fulfill all of our human rights expectations. and their strategic considerations also, all considerations that any president, any pretty sure s. to take into rica. however, president trump was a very ruthless politician who only looked at strategic. it's just, he did not consider human rights at all. and i think this will change. definitely, that doesn't mean that the united states now will pursue

a policy that is exclusively oriented along human rights. like this might be nice, this might be a perfect scenario, is unlikely to have professor lars eller as for all his recklessness. donald trump has launched a single war stuff. sometimes. i mean, when you can be a cunt pierre, you know how many human lives lost out of concern for human rights. sometimes you may think that perhaps it's safer for the world for that american, since you put that aside, but really were defendo for the vote. i'm not defending in i'm actually, i'm not buying into this american habit of looking at that parents. as i think this is, there's a strong strand in the russian foreign policy of actually looking at the results, not what they call you, but what they do at the end of the day. and whether one says, because if you come to my country and kill my child out of good intentions, i don't care what your intentions were. i can i care about my, my life sunbeam laws that are if you have a brief look at it on the drums policies and we haven't launched this in the war.

that's the arizona drill. i don't disagree said of course he hasn't, but still the world is a no mess. you know, we have relations with russia which have become better. we have relations with china, very tense, very constituents, yes, relations. because iran, it's a very conceptual, even last week, a few days ago, dollars rent a pound, they consider bombing iran. you have the transatlantic alliance, which are good for interests in a mask that all happened under the trump. this, these are not good developments. i drunk to that, that he did not launch a major wall. that's another minor thing because there is a huge difference between what our ports, which here was waging and the real war the claims lives. anyway, professor larson, we have to take a very short break right now. we're going to go back to the spirited conversation a few moments in

the new gold rush is underway and gonna sell thousands of ill equipped work. goes off, flocking to the gold fields, hoping to strike it. rich as children are torn between gold was very poor. i thought i was doing my best to get back to school, which side will have the strongest appeal. welcome

back to worlds apart their ploughs. florist professor at the university of north carolina at chapel hill professor, just before the break, we were discussing the renewed commitment of the united states to human rights and democracy. and you, joe biden, spread it out when at and mentioned that he was one of the very few people within the obama administration who was against the whole libya endeavor. and he actually in a way, repurpose trumps all the rhetoric for and in the endless wars in biden's terms, it's the for our worse which have cost the united states untold blood. tragic that you forgot to mention though, that many of those wars were either launched directly or indirectly approved by the united states. but anyway, do you think the biden administration will be ready for some kind of like, why and alice is of how this american leadership is supposed to be. if then

reinstituted on to there was because as i'm sure you wouldn't remember me there, well in 2021 is very different from the world even in 2016. you know, most american administrations spent that come into office. they consider all their foreign policy relations, or as a world that is usually an exercise every administration dust. and i'm sure joe biden ministration bill do that as well. what you'll see, and that is perhaps the major difference of the trumpet ministration is a more predictable and more reliable, foreign policy, elyse and photos. know what to expect from the white house policy. it won't change every 2 days. so something like that bill actually, i think also be predicted by those countries who comes and sells a so-so of america, including perhaps russia and china and saudi arabia who will be in the middle. you know, it will not be regarded as a foe. it will not be regarded as a close friend for example. so we knew we can expect

a new approach. and i think that maybe a new approach would try it, sour relations, you know, goes away from that heated every day media circus, a tree soul, and a president, trump, in the end, as a president by bill not to be a perfect president. no president can be evil, have strategic considerations to consider from his point of view, from an american point of view. we juma, priest, china, russia, all other countries to some extent. but i think they will also, he will also make an attempt, and that is probably what us learn in over 50 years. and honestly, if that isn't a good idea to find call in ground was countries you may not have sabet relationship is talking about russia, the renewal of the human stocks treaty, i think would be a great stuff for having something like a reset with russia,

interest, china they'll sell other considerations like cooperation on climate change cooperation, maybe on of gunnison on the middle east so that the areas you can find where countries who are not necessarily friendly was each other can cooperate for a later can't do not all circumstances you can find that unless you are every bit as german idlewild and meet your already speak from the statements of the, by the inefficient that you know, a lot of very abstract language about human rights and democracy. and there are lots and lots of practical issues in the walls that i want all the names and level of wyoming's migration. robert mind what charity or that dumps at all about the american use of democracy. but the operation on those issues get more active by one side's ideologic wash actory. do you think the biden administration are up for this out?

you're engaged those countries. now, glen's all respect, especially when it, sooner than one base that over the last 20 years about russia, about exams, i don't know how they can do that. serious. i mean, that goes both ways. no politicians tend to say a lot about each other. and when that, then you're not marrying that enemy at, is that right? the girl at sonic, they don't talk in a similar way. and of course, you know, byron is well known for having countless set to have bloody may have to do that. he looked into his soul and they're looking to his eyes and didn't find a soul. that is, i'm sure, a room, i can smell it going. it's already being dry here. let me just remind our viewers that elsa came was great, you 1000 allowed that counts as against running for president. again, speaking about interference in expenses electoral navy, your men have indeed a very long history and very much trouble is. i mean,

you can't cross talk about that into funes in each of those countries. and each of us domestic policy, russian descent from nation come paints 201-6228 kind of way and have been concerned. but i don't want to go into that. what i don't want to say is replications actually meet privately in a room or at a summit. then election campaigns off to rooms full of the media rigid. they also have to take into consideration for that too messy or you know, it's on both sides. they usually say not the remarks, all unpleasant red mosque, they usually go quickly out of the window and i would be very surprised if clinton and joe biden didn't have a good conversation. the 3 of that say i'm pleasant, right, to rape. and if they wouldn't try to find common ground, like for example, extending the new start treaty. and that could be the basis of perhaps, you know, a reset. but for reset, as the saying goes, it needs 2 to tango,

all the americans are left to give something. but the russians are going to have to give something at a concessions. and you know, that would be nice if something like that happened a professional, or as i have no doubt in my mind that the russians have long been writing for to have it all out. but i have grave doubts that the biden administration is people of that, especially given article you can actually get more and how can you post based on it of democracies on why should i reach your commitment to you? america is that while democracy and human rights are one camp and whole region and dictator app and if you were a journalist and deal bit here. on the other hand, we know that all politicians, especially on their liberal living at rates, but not cyril might well insolvent, and it may save their boat under grievous that it is quite possible to try to attempt to have a reset with dictators and the world autocrats and the world be the cold boot to

know she is shipping off to press even with the most korean leader, without accepting all of their policies, all the methods that is excellent to the skillfulness of to promise and politics that you try to fit to really coal to create the areas you can agree on and can decide the areas you define. and i think joe biden is probably intending to do that . just for the sake of american foreign policy, clearly as an american president, but also for the sake of having the most the greatest stability in the world. well, here he really intends to do that and that, you know, the democrats are nasty, like you resample. and as, as a candidate or as the president will change, the still not national conversation. i think he has to keep that, that snow in mind when dealing with other country leaders because i have even if he were a national problems, but now going to be treated as morally inferior is that our greed. but you look at

america, the best of politics right now. i think the tone has already changed when you see how biden reacts to what is going on in the white house with this president trump right now. he doesn't condemn him for, you know, of course, criticism, but he doesn't sway opinion. he doesn't become unreasonable, it doesn't become imaging. i mean, the other day, i don't know how many years. maybe sometime. i know, but i did some credit for the way he talks about it. so it's a very difficult situation right now for him. it is a very measured approach, but whatever you may think privately, i don't know, he has told how he comes across this measure. i would expect such a measure, at least rhetorically, to also find him to do express when he talks to foreign leaders. be it friends, albeit autocrats of the world. and i think that's a good basis for stopping a conversation. i'm not promising, and i don't know that that conversation will always be successful, but it would be very surprised if

a biden ministration wouldn't at least try to. you also have to remember that it was the obama administration who tried to reset this russia at the beginning, or they have termed in the end, it didn't succeed. we all know that. but i think that at least strike at the beginning. and i would say that biden will probably try to even hard up and hopefully also more successfully that you mentioned the summit of that democracy. is it or what do you mean is the matter with the big dollars at the gathering? well, getting scared. yeah, i mean even lied to that body of being here. i mean, i got to see the putin book get it invited, a concept that the chinese president will get in, but i would assume, and i really don't know. it has been left fairly debate. it has been mentioned several times in this opticals and his election platform, but it hasn't been filled this much concrete substance that is going to be done. i'm sure the next few months. but i would imagine that all nato members that all

e.u. members and crass, you know, the countries in between, you know, clear who have france, presse the certain west and some safe. but i'm not, let's say a member of the west attempt, such as india for example, i can see india be invited. how else is just speculation? i've no inside information. i won't bite into thinking about such a, it's going to be there and asking you about, is it with you and i live that policy logic? because as you, i'm sure, you know, maybe u.s. allies, most allies, i'm not democracies, be tricky. be it. saudi arabia, you can't, poland are hungry speaking about the e.u. members. i mean that, that's a community look like a good idea. i'll set out tragedy not invest some of your allies while conspicuously ostracizing. the advice is that really such a wise character? no idea. no, i don't, i'm not, i'm not going to defend. and so employers are not a spokesperson for by us in atlanta,

i'm saying what he has intended to do and his policy, or he's idea probably behind it is that he wants to create great crew here and in the west on pro-democratic camp. and as i said, of the beginning of a conversation as being betty freight relations and the drums as nato members and busy e.u. members, if you really deteriorate a lot so i can see by them wanting to give it a new push to make that coherence bring it about again, a greater stability in transatlantic relations in these sort of friendly relationships, whether that's will be successful, whether the even bill be a substantive summit or whether it will be just small, a symbolic summit. and i have no idea. i assume they want to make it a substantive summit, but do i know you used the word, bradley for the 2nd time and it being at again, it's not a word out of their reality or in all this year or international relations. here

are 2 dozen others we can use. the traps comes close up to what is a term like from might that nation? well, exactly, because actually, you know, when it comes to, let's say, some of the nato members, turkey, the united states and turkey. i'm not like minded at all. sure of that. not meeting alex and turkey is one of the most last or geopolitical layer in north africa. and i have no idea whether live will be invited now, but my point is, or rather might recent years, trying to you visit the united states dealing with psychs deprancol partners lights right here it was. human rights record is beyond the pale, but who has big leagues that washington really needs that ultimately. and that's those. they're out what the demo kristie and human rights record is all about. if you can are raspberries bally's, you know, all supposedly our lives. what's, what should be your ballot bowl? there are a 1000000 arts and you wouldn't go, i wouldn't know,

i wouldn't talk about it in terms of principles. it has nothing to do with others of democracy when you have difficulties was turkey. but the relationship the server? no, it's not actually not allies used, but like a friendly like minded in the way certain that the relationship with turkey, if very difficult and apparently was very disappointed at the trunk wasn't reelected. this will make things right. and of course, as you rightly say, is a very important, politically, strategically very important country, also a nato member. and the e.u. countries also have the difficulties because turkey is a close neighbor also the half to get on with it. the same applies to the united states. that, of course, personally, i would hope that biden will be successful in talking to al the gun and also trying to clamp down to, to tone down, make him tone down. is anti human rights policies. it is so recent that you tauriel

policies that will be successful. i wonder. i wonder, you know, it will be very difficult and it's a moment. i don't know what the bike minister we know about has a last, i mean, you both know the answer. it's a big questions. me, it's very hard questions, get this post, but we are out of time. i just get you going. well, that's a promise that thank you very much for being here. that no, thank you. was a pleasure and thank you for watching to see you again next week on worlds apart.

i was always in the building, but i was national. big city, bright lights. you jump, but you knew jesus and many dangers later that led to it's also a city where up to $300000.00 crimes are committed every year for the last one. but if you're most of the reserve least one police officer for every $200.00 residents in russia's capital cost on the english, i think you have a right to me that i will not go as i'm already into the us. the

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