policy and chance atlantic relations president last, it's good to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. you're welcome and it's a nice to be here. well established recently that whatever are the final results of the us national, they were not provided. will refute asian or policies because big banks need? well, response no remains bleak rockley in ha, i'm not going to even go farther than that and suggest that they would provide an almost full bipartisan nation or policies. because if you look at joe biden's least promises, especially in the domestic front, it really looks like we style the paste role charms label and the worst of what a new dog last michigan's national drape. what chair for all that? repudiate an option arms, carrots. have the democrats really rejected this? that? that's our policy. yeah. if you would like to disagree,

i think you go say see a real shift. i mean, the problem is donald trump was of course he still is that he's not a real democrat if keely authoritarian tendencies. we see that in his refusal to leave the white collar to concede the election to joe biden, though it's pretty clear that the u.s. lost the election. even republican senator. now isn't there an indian style of behavior asking, you know, absent of policy? yeah, exactly. and so joe biden has announced he will convene a summit for democracy so he wants to rally americans and us round table again to really make them more coherent to improve the relationship, particularly see where p. and ls suno. and the relations was in nato relations was in the e.u. back if straight he had a very hostile, almost relationship to international. so biden will have

a totally different policy. trisha's has value over the last and above all, he seems to realize that the united states is a lot stronger to get as well as its allies. rather let it go, it alone. and under, under trump, we saw a more unilateral america going to the only policy. and i think that will change fundamentally in one of your recent analysis of trumps foreign policy. you single out its 3 primary strands disengaging the us from local politics, does deigning alice, you just retreated that point right now. and the friending autocratic leader, he's now naturally as a russian, as and perhaps in your view as a shill for one sect are craddick leader. i want to ask you specifically, what does it mean befriending autocratic leaders? well, we have a very disconcerting congress is under trumps that for example, trump became very close to saudi arabian crown prince. and you know that the crown

prince was at least implicated in the murder, also generalists. and by everyone contend that trump did not say a word about it instead of that he continued having very good relations. also personal relations with members of this administration at that same also did not criticize what was going on in europe regarding hungry and poland. and the presently, or to credit policies of these 2 countries, c e u. s. you know, it's condemned. it is trying to do something about it. but trump has kept quiet for now though. say that you would see that. and i read that proposal. arcee said to be equating public statements, rhetoric to policy and past and foreign policy in the united states. and our start as, and i'm sure you teach your students that words are not the same as actions. absolutely bubbly statements don't make up a policy, in fact, and those that you will be diametrically opposed to one another. so again, let's not look at public statements. i read there is a major difference in style in persona and character, but there is

a personal things i am asking you about the substantive change in the course of the united states. and again, in policy terms, because at least in the liberal circles, they don't love using this befriending autocratic leader is cliche, but what does it mean in adelaide equal terms? big all of that policy demeans of that policy and the possible outcomes of that policy in that he's given a promissory note. for example, as i mentioned, the summit off democracy, of course, the people where the wind is blowing in the united states, and he built it up. if you're in a hotel and orders out your bill supports the e.u. regarding the policy towards poland in hungary, while trump has indirectly, but be keeping quiet by expressing syntheses as expressed support for these people and that of course in boulder. and you don't, you won't see that still in bold meant and of having set of course also

realize the strategic relationship, the united states has to sortie arabia. you will not true saudi arabia into an enemy, and no one would expect that. and the other hand, you know, not let. 3 the crown prince get away with these sort of character, something about these women. why isn't that it was in office together with president obama. they tell him that allowed saudi arabia to launch one of the most murderous, bloodiest wars there is. and still continuing right now. i mean, i understand that there is a certain air resonance, about the absolute horrific nature of that one killing. but under biden and obama, hundreds of thousands of such killings have been taking place. can you really put down those who are ministry of their coverage of the wall of a human conducted for saudi arabia and of those have you stopped to do it while obama was in power? and it's certainly this one. it's a black, the obama administration,

the only one. i don't know, not saying that it's one of my points that they didn't do anything about it, but biden was, of course, vice president. he did have an influence obama could if i say in the end he did possum's a guy who took the decision that clearly was president. that is different now. and of course also in the last few years or so, you merican statements have to look for what is going on in that part of the world . how to start troy to become how terrible it is. the human costs have been. so i would expect to reverse that course and not too soon for saudi arabia or yes said so, and of course us no got to see their critics issues and they say things during combat. it's therefore up when these statements, but i would expect a biden to do so it clearly is more in favor of human rights, for example, in general. then for example, president trump, who never even use a term of human rights. well, you didn't hear my next question and i think it's partially time that ties meant

that my questions about your choice of vocabulary that is befriending the autocratic leaders. because it's true that donald trump had a more pragmatic, last moralistic approach to foreign policy. and i think it's high time where the will to debate how we define morality in international relations. what is good and what is bad? what are the limits, the legitimate use of military power so that we don't see carnage like we saw in yemen in libya, in iraq, all of which were born out of good, moralistic intentions. repeat again. and my question to you is don't you think that by using east liberal catchphrase is befriending, which is essentially an attack by association. you're out in a way kind of flashing the need for the world to have that conversation. and if you, if you look around the world is really crying out for it because all the major problems we have right now, refugees, internally displaced and down,

makes immigration, the riser for a populist. they can all be tied to the war. it's abandoned louis. i know, and i think, i think you can agree that human rights are something to do was killing people and killing people is always a bad idea. and that applies to all countries be. it's the united states, or russia, or china, or other great ousts, you know, they are getting involved or stopping was pushing was next in countries that are trying to develop incursions in countries is a bad think. and biden is a case here for him and yours in proportion. right? i mean, it is the only because i feel the only reason to russians are, as i'm always there early or a lot have now the signal light was low there, you cannot compare something like that. so you look, let's say an operation in libya, which again is the same matter of analysis. you can't compare, compare the killing of to shaw gets you the bloody war in vietnam, and that the obama administration has oversaw. so the question is,

who is really moral and these in order to be asked not just kill kershaw, of course, very active in yemen and in other conflicts around the world or write a note or don't you now do a final round of the ministries and yeah, we might get the money horse and united states needs to do something about that. and biden has sat, he would do so whether belief in whether he will follow up. we don't know costs, you will not be a perfect president. he will not fulfill all of our human rights expectations and their strategic considerations also, all considerations that any president of any pretty sure s. to take into regatta. however, the president trump was a very ruthless politician who only looked at strategic. it's just, he did not consider human rights at all, and i think this will change. definitely, that doesn't mean that the united states now will pursue

a policy that is exclusively oriented along human rights. like this might be nice. this might be a perfect scenario is unlikely to have. professor lars eller is for all his recklessness. donald trump has launched a single war stuff. sometimes. i mean, when you can be a cunt pierre, you know how many human lives lost out of concern for human rights. sometimes you may think that perhaps it's safer for the world for the americans. do you put that aside? but really we're defendo for the vote. i'm not defending in i'm actually, i'm not buying into this american habit of looking at that parents. as i think this is, there's a strong strand in the russian foreign policy of actually looking at the results, not what they call you, but what they do at the end of the day. and whether one says, because if you come to my country and kill my child out of good intentions, i don't care what your intentions were. i can i care about my, my life sunbeam laws that are if you have really focused on the problems,

policies and we haven't launched this in the war. that's the arizona drill. i don't disagree said of course he hasn't, but still the world is a no mess. you know, we have relations with russia which have become better. we have relations with china, very tense, very constituents, yes, relations with iran. it's a very constituent, even last week, a few days ago, dollars rent a pound. they consider bombing iran. you have the transatlantic alliance, which are good for interest in a mask that all happened under the trump this. these are not good developments. i drunk to that, that he did not launch a major wall that are not this letter is being because there is a huge difference between the warts, which he was waging and the real war the claims lives. anyway, professor larson, we have to take a very short break right now. we're going to go back to the spirited conversation after a few moments that you are oh,

look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the 1st law show. your identification for should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point is to create a trance like area with artificial intelligence, where some of the robot must protect its own existence as a matter

of hers, financial survival guide. i don't buy any i prize common features of the friday as of last summer, buying from the future trucker watch kaiser during the vietnam war, us forces are also bombed to neighboring laos. it was a secret war. and for years, the american people did not know how much it is officially mouth can rebound country per capita human history. millions of unexploded bombs still in danger. lives in this small agricultural country. jordyn, we don't think going to happen again. even today, kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago. is the us making amends for the tragedy in laos. what help do the people need in that little land of mines?

welcome back to worlds apart. then plows larysa, professor abby universe, there is now carolina at chapel hill professor just before the break. we were discussing the aremu, the commitment of the united states to human rights and democracy. and do you joe biden's credit? i want to add mentioned that he was one of the very few people within the obama administration who was against the whole leave it endeavor. and he actually in a way to repurpose trumps all the rhetoric for and in the endless wars in biden's terms. it's there for our war suites, have cost the united states untold blood and treasure, and he forgot to mention though, that many of those wars were either launched directly or indirectly approved by the

united states. but anyway, do you think the biden administration will be ready for some kind of like, why and alice is of how this american leadership is supposed to be instead reinstituted onto their walls because as i'm sure you would remember me, the world in 2021 is very different from the world, even in 2016, you know, most american administrations spent that come into office. they consider all their foreign policy relations are always a world that is usually an exercise at ministration. gus and i'm sure joe biden ministration bill do that as well. what you'll see, and that is perhaps the major difference was a trumpet. ministration is a more predictable and more reliable, foreign policy, elyse and solos know what to expect from the white house for policy. it won't change every 2 days. so something like that bill actually, i think also be predicted by those countries who come some cells,

a so-so of america, including perhaps russia and china and saudi arabia who will be in the middle. you know, it will not be regarded as a photo will not be regarded as a close friend for example. so we new book, we can expect a new approach. and i think that maybe a new approach should try it. sound relations in a goes away from that heated every day media circus, a tree soul, and a president trump. in the end, as i said, to follow up for a president by bill not to be a perfect president, no president can be evil, have strategic considerations to consider from his point of view, from an american point of view, we juma, priest, china, russia, all other countries to some extent, but i think that will also, he will also make an attempt and that is probably what he has learned in over 50 years. and honestly, if that isn't a good idea to find call in ground was countries you may end up has the best

relationship is talking about russia, the renewal of the human stocks. treaty, i think would be a great stuff for having something like a reset with russia, interest, china. they are also other considerations like cooperation on climate change. for example, cooperation, maybe on of gunnison on the middle east so that the areas you can find where countries who are not necessarily friendly was each other, can cooperate for a later candidate or not all circumstances. you can find that unless you are arab, as german idlewild and me are ready to eat raw misstatements of the by the inefficient that in a lot of the abstract language about human rights and democracy. now there are lots and lots of practical issues in the walls that i want all the names and level of whining migrates. and robert mind what charity or that dumps and all

about the american use and democracy. but the operation on those issues get more active by one side, ideologically wash actory. do you think the biden stray showers are up for that south? engage those countries. glens all respect, especially when it sooner you can spend one day, saturday over the last 20 years about russia, about exams. i don't know how they can do that. serious. i mean, that goes both ways. no politicians tend to say a lot about each other. and when that, then you're going to marry an enemy act in that light that are let some if they don't talk in a similar way. and of course, you know, byron is well known for having countless set to have bloody made food and that he looked into his soul and his eyes and didn't find a soul. that is, i'm sure, a room, i can smell it going. it's already being drier. let me just remind our viewers that

elsa came was great, you 1000 allowed that counts as against running for president. again, speaking about interference in expenses electoral navy, your men have indeed a very long history and marriage problem is you cannot cross talk about it into funes in each of those countries. and each of us domestic policy, russian descent from nation complaints, $2602.00 is older than 20. it's a kind of way and have been concerned, but i don't want to go into that. what i want to say is replications actually meet privately in a room or at a summit, then election campaigns off to rooms full of the media rigid. they also have to take into consideration for that too messy or you know, it's on both sides. they usually kind of say not the remarks, all unpleasant red mosque, they usually go quickly out of the window. and i would be very surprised if clinton and joe biden didn't have a good conversation. the 3 of that say i'm pleasant req to rape. and if they

wouldn't try to find common ground, like for example, extending the new start treaty. and that could be the basis of perhaps, you know, a reset. but for reset, as the saying goes, it needs 2 to tango, all the americans are left to give something. but the russians are going to have to give something and a concessions. and you know, that would be nice if something like that happened a professional, or as i have no doubt in my mind that the russians have long been writing for to have it all out. but i have grave doubts that the biden administration is people of that, especially if you are blocking action to get more and how can you host based on need of democracies on washington to reach your commitment to america? is that while democracy and human rights are one time and whole region and dictator ad if you were a journalist and deal bit here. on the other hand, we know that all politicians, especially on their liberal living at rates, but not 0,

might well insolvent database of their boat under grievous that it is quite possible to try to attempt to have a reset with dictators and the world autocrats and the world be the cold boot to know if he should bring all of it to press even with the most korean leader without accepting all of their policies. all the methods that this accident to the skillfulness of 2 promises and politics that you try to fit to really code to create the areas you can agree on and can decide the areas you define. and i think joe biden is probably intending to do that. just for the sake of american foreign policy, clearly as an american president, but also for the sake of having a great of stability in the world. well, here he really intends to do that and that, you know, the democrats are nasty like this. and as, as a candidate or as the president will change the still not national conversation. i

think he has to keep that detail in mind when dealing with other country leaders. because raul, i have seen many of the national problems, but now going to be treated as moral inferiors that our great, but you look at america, the best of politics right now. i think the tone has already changed when you see how biden really acts to what is going on in the white house with this president trump right now. he doesn't condemn him. you know, of course the to criticism, but he doesn't sway opinion. he doesn't become unreasonable, it doesn't become imaging. 6 i mean the other day without me or maybe sometimes, i know that i did some credit for the way he talks about it. so it's a very difficult situation right now for him. it is a very measured approach. but whatever you may think privately, i don't know, he has told how he comes across this measure. i would expect such a measure, at least rhetorically, to also find him to do express when he talks to foreign leaders. be it friends,

albeit autocrats of the world. and i think that's a good basis for stopping a conversation. i'm not promising, and i don't know that that conversation always be successful, but it would be very surprised if a biden administration wouldn't at least try to. you also have to remember that it was the obama administration who tried to find a reset this russia at the beginning, they have termed in the end, it didn't succeed. we all know that. but i think that at least strike at the beginning. and i would say that biden will probably try to even hard up and hopefully also more successfully you mentioned the summit of that democracy. is it or what do you mean is the matter with the big dollars at the gathering? well, getting shared that i think, yeah, i mean even lied to that body of being here. you know, i got to see putin but get it right. a concept that the chinese president will get it in, but i would assume, and i really don't know,

it has been left fairly debate. it has been mentioned several times in this opticals and his election platform. but it hasn't been filled this much concrete substance that is going to be done. i'm sure the next few months. but i would imagine that all nato members that all e.u. members and crass, you know, the countries in between. you know, peter, who have france, press a certain western someplace safe, but i'm not, let's say a member of the west such as india for example. i can see india be like that. however, this is just speculation. i've no inside information. i won't bite into thinking about such a, it's going to be there. i'm asking you about, is it with you and i live that policy logic because as you, i'm sure, you know, maybe the u.s. allies, most allies, i'm not democracies, be tricky. be it. saudi arabia, given all and are hungry speaking about the e.u. members. i mean that's it. media look like a good idea. i'll set out tractor not invest some of your allies while

conspicuously ostracizing. the advice is that really such a wise creditor? no idea how i don't, i'm not, i'm not here. i'm going to defend by and so invite is there not a spokesperson from by us in atlanta, i'm saying what he has intended to do, and his policy or his idea probably behind it is that he wants to create great crew here and in the west on pro-democratic camp and as i said, of the beginning of a conversation as being betty freight relations under trumpets, nato members and busy e.u. members. if you really deteriorate a lot so i can see by them wanting to give it a new push to make that coherence bring it about again of greater stability in transatlantic relations in these sort of friendly relationships. whether that's will be successful, whether the even bill be a substantive summit or whether it will be just small,

a symbolic summit and i have no idea. i assume they want to make it a substantive summit. but do i know you used the words, bradley for the 2nd time and it being at again, it's not a word out of their reality or an all this year or international relations here or 2. there's another to we can use. the traps comes close up, which is a term like from might that nation. well, exactly, because actually, you know, when it comes to, let's say, some of the nato members, turkey, the united states and turkey. i'm not like minded at all. sure about not needing allies and turkey is one of the most last or geopolitical player in north africa. and i have no idea whether live will be invited now, but my point is, or rather might rest here is trying to do you envisage the united states dealing with its sights, different cult partners, lights right here it was. human rights record is beyond the pale, but who has big leagues that washington really needs. and that ultimately,

and that's those. now what the demo kristie and human rights record is all about. if you can are raspberries bally's, you know, all suppose it our lives. what's, what should your balance will there are 1000000 arts and you wouldn't know i wouldn't talk about it in terms of principles. it has nothing to do with the use of democracy when you have difficulties was turkey. but the relationship the server? no, it's not actually not allies used, but like a friendly like minded in the way certain that the relationship with turkey, if very difficult and apparently was very disappointed at the trunk wasn't reelected. this will make things hot, awful biden, of course. but as you rightly say, is a very important, politically, strategically very important country, or it's a nato member. and the e.u. countries also have the difficulties because turkey is a close neighbor also the has to get on with it. the same applies to the united

states. that, of course, personally, i would hope that biden will be successful in talking to al the gun and also trying to clamp down or to, to tone down. make him tone down his n.t. human rights policies. it's recently tauriel policies, whether that will be successful. i wonder. i wonder, you know, it will be very difficult and it's a moment. i don't know what the bike minister we know i'm so mad about the president last. i mean, you both know the answer. it's a big questions we, it's very hard questions get disposed, but we out just fine. i just get you going. well, that's a promise that thank you very much for being here. that no, thank you. was a pleasure and thank you for watching to see you again. next week on worlds apart.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics. sports business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. a new gold rush is underway in ghana. thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the gold fields, hoping to strike it. rich. as children are torn between gold, my family was very poor. i thought i was doing my best to get back to see which side will have the strongest appeal

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