800000000 people out of poverty we speak to the britain who introduced foster care to the global superpower of the 21st century that is routinely defamed in the west for terminating us as your money power and as the un predicts coronavirus may push over 200000000 more people into extreme poverty we speak to a book along with a novelist about his portrayal of london's underbelly of ultraviolet crime arguably created by upper class political ideology and ask why politicians in the media get violent crime so wrong all this more coming up in today's going underground 1st as china looks to visit stars after a successful moon landing and with its public health vaccine program looking to be the largest in history on top of lifting 800000000 people out of poverty will nations look to the people's republic not just for public health but for the organization of society itself joining me now is robert glover o.b.e. whose new book as many as the stars a story of change for the children of china charts the openness of china to respond to new methods of development for children he joins me now from nora to norfolk

rather welcome to going underground china in the news probably more of a coronavirus but people will know that china's one child policy arguably may have helped it become the superpower of the 21st century people are going to be surprised when reading your new book that there was no fostering programs for children one of the side effects of that one child policy before you turned up on the scene well that's right thank you very much for having me yes when we landed in china they want me to see i had known no understanding at source of course most of the children. that were abandoned. on their way into ended up in institutions and for the very little younger babies got the opportunity for international doctrine but there is nothing happening in china now i know you write about your child in oratory speaking to me from how that. the book tells of how you

were a navy royal navy submarine a juror in the cold war why is it you didn't seem to have any of the prejudices which are arguably being thrown about now i mean boris johnson has just put 6 enough 1000000000 extra into the military budget and says china is an adversary well why did it not affect you that china is an enemy it's not some country that you need to go out there and help hundreds of thousands of children that you've helped after all work from an early stage when i was a teenager most teenagers look to hollywood and the united states you know for. their attraction are i was just fascinated by this culture that for centuries very mysterious very interesting their interests and i think once i found i was there you know how we perceive the chinese is not the way that people on the ground are the people i certainly were were with of are the most humble generous kind

hearted and seeing the culturally intricate nature of their family networks and how they make up traditionally this community was fascinating because as we said god and football big facets of this story take us back to when you arrive in hong kong because you paint a nightmarish picture of british rule dong kong you talk about. triad gangs and. the kind of crime ridden on kong that was very different there we see today when we talk about hong kong being encroached by the chinese authorities what was on the way. well i mean again today congo is my favorite city in the world amazing it is an amazing city in the sense it has everything it has this infusion of western east together and high now exposed my fascination really was more about the lady that

was working with the triads this sort of area that was neither china nor hong kong and yet she'd sort of given up her life to go and sit alongside each of them some of the most brutal people in the work on the earth and it was as young girl that went and worked with them and and just couldn't form some of their lines and she was it incredible i think she was a great inspiration to so to me and you know their central to what you and your charity have done arguably maybe this line in the book you talk about something called the more established n.g.o.s and organizational group think what do you mean by that when it comes to helping the disadvantaged around the world maybe not even just in china yes our i think it's sometimes understanding how we should work when we go into development my message always was when i spoke to the government was look these are your children they're your responsibility therefore you need to you

know step up and we'll support you willing courage you will help you make the transformations but ultimately to be sustainable mr t.j. there you go to our own this what does it make you feel when you watch so-called mainstream media then i mean the big accusation certainly on their statement at the b.b.c. is china is a genocidal country wiping out some statistics that have been subsequently discredited by other sources say hundreds of thousands of your populations and let alone that somehow things were better under the british in hong kong you say in the line communism if nothing else provided a safety net and you're talking of course they're about the most vulnerable. yes and and and i guess this is an area rather a through my 20 years in china that you have to navigate through you know you live in china i remember being in kansas city when they announced that beijing and got their lympics and the current shot of the americans you know coming on the radio as

i was driving our smarting in my face i think this is not the china i know i'm not advocating communism by any means but what i am saying is when i went to india i felt everything that for through the net there was nothing to stop people literally dying on the streets and in the slums of mumbai the difference being in in a nation the size of china and india is if nothing else. communism acted as a safety net to some of those people that were falling through the net well you know when it comes to our historically socialized ideas of social care in this country since 1905 you're probably aware that here in britain the number of u.k. children in care is rising 20000 in a decade while in china it's decreasing i don't know whether you've taken on a credit for that what do you what do you make of that disparity well i think it is

about the focus unease about the focus of of looking at a system and lord lambing who's my previous boss always said that if this system does not meet the needs that you are then you have to change the system there's no good trying to fit the children in something that's not working and i think that was very much about what we developed in china with the chinese they learned very quickly they the in the other interesting thing is when i met with them in government. we became quite friendly and sociable and i used to say trouble you lot you're a communist country with 1300000000 catholics and they would laugh and agree and so there is a sense in they can do have attitude in china they're once they understand something that works they really make it work and they really push forward so i think for the chinese they're very industrious they're very entrepreneurial and they're very quick to make things change right across the nation so i think the shanghai park

project was 5 years and the next 15 years transformed the whole nation and that because that's because it came from the top and the people at the bottom were. industrious enough to make it happen and see children moved out of institutions and into families we come here through every an example one capitalist actually came of the criticism on this program because of his concept against the president of venezuela mut richard branson. apparently and you thank so many people for getting cafeteria and to where it is today sell me how not only did it help you richard branson money but may have helped virgin airlines after 911 well i like to think i mean richard was right enough to take the risk emitted time the project was funded by the british government department international development and they put the initial funding into. how the projects the part of project in

shanghai and you know we talked to a lot of people but it was richard branson that literally flew out to shanghai came and had a look at the project and decided he would support it of course later i find out that you know he wins you know how sneakily present this to the british airline and windsor route to shanghai which given the fact that we had 911 and most of his routes with america shanghai might have been one of the saving grace so everyone. in a way just finally how many countries is it now that that then geo is working in and you talk about actually going to a north korea and helping children that arrive or even to north korea. the north korean government asked the chinese government to go are prepared to go i've been twice china's a big influence in asia and often ending

a work in china picks up the ears of other nations and governments so initially in thailand french interestingly the government was quite slow and then we had an audience with the king the king of thailand which was quite inspirational and he decided within half an hour that. we should we should carry ourselves in in thailand and what taken months of negotiation literally was signed the next day and all that came about through our. iraq patron prince michael of course who has very good links with russia following on from that we were invited by the vietnamese government so we just started last year with the vietnamese government they're very ambitious they want to see half of their children moved out of institutions and this year we've been working with cambodia where we're hoping that the british government development overseas development will get behind us because it's gonna be a big challenge. i'm not sure about that aid budget right now i understand there's

a documentary about charging the creation. to have children so is b.b.c. producer but this documentary get 5 children follows their lives big grills and you know the adventure he's the one who is in the ration and we go back my wife and i go back into then 18 and we meet these far too. loosely inspirational icons and that's why you do me that's a do with the families one little girl i remember lying on the proven open age with cerebral palsy they didn't think she could go in the family when i went back the parents how we would cry cry it on their faces that she'd gone to the sydney paralympic games and want to go home i mean water story and as we are there in their little apartment she gets a gold medal and she puts it over my head and just reduced me to. and managing one story of a 1000000 rubber glove thank you after the break today was u.k.

pm boris johnson prepares to lengthen prison sentence as we explore the broken films in the u.k. that have created a world of youth violence not shown violent media from the perspective of someone who was at the heart of it and ask why our politicians have got it wrong so long all of them all coming up in part 2 of the having. rideau which is a planet with 5 moons an atmosphere highly active geology and evidence or a little water of the ocean in syria or it could. be of those for biology is just far beyond our wildest imaginations.

buchan back about one we heard have china has revolutionized the way it protects the human rights of children but what about the u.k. where we're broadcasting from who they was a new booker prize long list a tell me autobiographical novel from more of a gabriel craft explores the world of violent crime in london in a way that you won't see in so-called mainstream media and examines the systemic problems that drive people into a life of crime from austerity and privatization to the ever increasing class divisions in the u.k. going underground have the other to charlie cook caught up with crowd and started by asking him about the novel it was a sin not with us partly based on my own life's kind of between the ages of 17 and 23 when i was heavily involved in gang culture and criminality in north west london . not just about my personal story although the kind of central theme of it is the

story of disarray he's from from a family of ownership immigrants in london and of navigating the london town of dan underworld while at the same time doing a degree in university but beyond that it's also a novel that kind of opens a window onto the world of gang culture in london which kind of far too often is only represent it in a very kind of short brief and constrained kind of reports in the media and as a particularly violent crime or as a particularly continuous series of gang related incidents that stabbings and shootings in the capital and what i really want to achieve with this book was the end of open a window into that world and into the complex east of human complexities of the experience and and the moral challenges faced by people living in those kind of environments the critical reception of the seems to often home in on the idea that you are leading a so-called double life that i thought you said there wasn't a double life it was just in your life do you think in a way that's

a kind of condescension in that the seeming that you're being very kind of like books and street smart is that the 2 things that are necessarily go together. exactly i think i think there's a big problem with that and the sense that kind of reflects the way in which society seeks to kind of keep a distance and of course criminality is 'd something that causes a lot of problems within society but. something that has existed in human society or 'd you know thousands of years ultimately. i think the idea that for example somebody called go to university in degree or even just the concept that somebody could be educated and somebody can be a complex character with lots of conflicting aspects to their personality and at the same time be involved in criminality and education is kind of a reflection on the way in which society would prefer it's a kind of narrow down the reasons why people get involved in that lifestyle and really into you there's a huge range of reasons why people get on boats and in that lifestyle and the

people involved in those lifestyles are people full of complexity so under saying later you know people in normal life feel a longing loss yearning compassion you know people fall in love that evergreen that happens to gang members and people involved in criminality years well you know so i think that as a kind of issue in terms of how people hone in on the facts they want to you know they seek to kind of analyze their book and i call in that meeting both in the criminal life and on to university is a double life but the reality is it wasn't a double 'd life up got just simply was my existence and also this there's another kind of negative aspect that i see in terms of the way in which a lot of people who focus on analysts or at least critics focus on analyzing the book initially and the focus initially is upon me and the lifestyle da da i used to live you know which the book is based on i.e. the lifestyle of being involved in criminality in gun culture when actually what

i've written is a work of literature and i'd actually prefer critics to analyze it. from the perspective of being a work of art because a work of art allows people to kind of find the humanity underneath the layers of human experience how courses were you when writing the book not to kind of glamorize the lifestyle you're writing about to make it kind of as realistic as it could be but also not glorify or well i think taxi right and describe the realism of that lifestyle automatically doesn't clarify and i think i mean i'm sure some people think that glorify that i think evil who think that glorify violence or gun culture in the book of people who are largely on comfortable with the moral complexity of it and they don't want to face up to to the kind of moral confrontation because also you know i've referred before in this interview already to the fact that the book is opening a window but in the sense that however in the book i'm not opening this window and

gently inviting the reader into the world opening the window and then grabbing the reader and dragging them into this world and not giving them a choice to kind of walk away from it i mean the only way to walk away from missed put the book down. but i think i don't think that writing about that lifestyle and that won't realistically can glamorize it because it's very unglamorous it's full of pain it's full of hardships full of self destruction the one of the things that returns to again and again seem wise is that people outside this life calm possibly really understand and you've already said that the book opens with a robbery and it immediately shows a kind of cost of i between the rich and the poor and you say and i'm a woman those people have never thought about your characters so why should you think about them how important is classed as a theme in your bag i think crosses such an important to some extent because of how british society works in terms of class divisions and the judgment and listen that

comes within the context of those cross the visions and times of how people separate themselves socially and have. people judge of was so should the offing for me the biggest division in the context of the book and in terms of discussing that world is the division of understanding and the division and then because this issue jack of empathy and of course it's not this is not to take anything away from victims of crime of course you know when we talk about victims of crime it's easy to end the phase of the victim of crime but it's very difficult and pfizer the perpetrator there is a huge divide i think socially in terms of understanding and empathy and the way in which people who understand the complexity of human experiences know it's not as well myself in terms of sun and people who criticize the book just for the fact that it reveals a lot of violence and covers a lot of violence and that that reflects the you know the violence in the book is a completely realistic portrayal that's far more violence in his own happened on

the streets of london than what is necessary to be portrayed in the book and of course stop causes a lot of problems for people because they don't want to kind of open their eyes they'd rather think that this is something that because of the riff of their existence and toto out that the media already been in the book you're suspicious of any detail how politicians seem to get at identifying with these groups are wrong like i did recently the tories tried to knife messaging on the side of chicken boxes they went out and why do you think that politicians have got to say we're on the side in the back because i think it is this tendency to think that coming up with kind of catchy slogans and throwing a lot of money at campaigns of posters i'm going to change something but if you've been in that lifestyle and you've been an active gang member or puppetry or of violent crime no message is going to dispute you from what you're trying to do because it's a much deeper kind of psychological emotion in that world than any kind of post the

campaign can on do especially in a rich c.e. that london if you're going from it if you feel disadvantaged in your confront. by the extreme wealth of as you mediately feel a sense of alienation and you feel this sense of not belonging in certain contexts and that can create a lot of anger and resentment in people i think when i actually remember as well actually walking down the king's road in chelsea which is you know one of if not the wealthiest area of london and i saw on the side of the phone books a slogan which said been my saved lives and i just thought to myself how ridiculous it was look is possible you know the the young people of the king's road in chelsea i'm not the 10s of of god and culture and they're not you know walking out of their houses and being surrounded by a millionaire as fresh as an influence is you know they're living in extreme affluence and privilege and yet you know the government decides so the council decides or whatever to stop this poster in the film looks as if it's going to change something the other aspect as well is if somebody has picked up

a knife and not just picked up a knife as a scad nervous child about you know picked up a knife and commit to to actively engaging in in gang war and gang conflict will they carry a gun for example you know a post that i suddenly see which says knife saves lives it's not going to change their opinion and i think you know i can't really sit here and say that i've put on sister these things because i'm not trying to portray myself as a moral crusade i do think for example exposing people to to the arts and to culture that for example taking people from you know very underprivileged environments and you know dangerous and negative environments taking them to the fair taking them to our gallery staking them to museums taking them to the countryside taking them to the seaside basically exposing people to things that they don't see on a regular basis in their environments in the neighborhoods that have a strong and heavy gun presence that can begin to kind of undo to the sense of that pressure and and that sense that one doesn't have many choices in certain

situations which is why a lot of young people off base that is very easy i just have to. how does well that is you know it's very easy for adults to pontificate and and to sit within the comfort of having the wisdom of age and time having costs and to kind of look down on young people who are getting involved in this lifestyle and be very dismissive and seek to criticize them which i think also says some critics of my book in my writing have i've tried to do that because they just find it's that they find so morally challenging that it's easy to kind of criticize and denigrate it's very easy to do that but when you're young and you're involved in that lifestyle it can seem like a very enclosed loaded got doesn't have many ways out if any at all i just want to ask you about the by the way that represents prison for you mentioned karen some of the now more famous for kind of protest and trace mass ups but the way that your book represents present how hard is it to write about something that as you say in the book is indescribable i think part of what i wanted to convey in my

writing when i wrote about prison is that emptiness of the experience and how it's kind of like a death of the soul when you go into prison like you know everything that the outside world gradually dies and and i can imagine i mean i was in prison for a long period of time but i can imagine that people spend you know us in prison that outside world starts to die and is this very weird culture that has existed i think socially especially in this country i think of talking about prisons as being a soft touch because you know for example some prisoners who have privileges and this is something that's often not mentioned in the media are prisoners who have privileges are allowed for example playstation games and they have t.v.'s in their cells and everything when no one talks about how when people go into the wing in a prison that they're constantly in lust in an environment of constant threat and you can't imagine the psychological toll that that takes some of us and that you

constantly feel under threat and constant if you under pressure known lalo talking of. constant on reported stabbings and extreme violence that takes place in prison i mean you know if you think that it's a soft touch to go into a cell which you only allowed out of one hour a day so you inside oh so 23 hours a day sharing it with another man goes to the toilet in front of another man and you've got a playstation in your cell and you think that's some kind of soft touch you know and people are getting stabbed in the showers and everything a psych this is a total elysian element you know a lot of people who go through the prison system and who go through the experience of being involved in gun culture and criminality ultimately traumatized by their experience and again that is not to take anything away from the victims but simply to you know make people understand that as a lot more to these experiences than what you read in the in grief newspaper

articles that often have a kind of political slant to them i just finally want to ask you about what you're working on that says time out on the 2nd on your kanye writing on i'm currently working on a novel to us about transgenerational trauma because i'm particularly interested in how the traumas that our ancestors or our distant relatives you know went through in their previous lives can affect future generations for myself personally being from a polish family particularly fascinated by the effect the warsaw uprising and the experience of my family in living in warsaw and in poland through the 2nd world war which is the country which was completely devastated by the 2nd world war you know they lost basically 525 percent of their population so one in 5 people in poland were basically wiped out during the 2nd local and i think there are countries and groups of people nations russia as well during the 2nd local for example nations that go through these extreme extreme historical traumas then have new generations

of people that are affected by that and often they are infected by. i am knowing that and so i'm fascinated about how to some extent with my own personal history i think. our inherit you know through my family but also in the widest sense of examining for example 'd the fact of the holocaust on you know modern day people. modern agee's basically in the wild and how that also links to the existence of the state of israel for example in america and the caribbean the descendants of people who were victims of yet i'm picks a trait sometimes rather novel that's an exploration of a lot of those themes and also how it links to modern culture today a link to the internet and a lot of people as well a lot of young people to some extent having a laugh of understanding of history and yet feeling very strong the about their own sense of identity and when they where they came from which i think is very important to everyone thank you so much. and gabriel crowd so that when you're

going underground deputy as if that charlie cook who they was is out now that's it for the show we were back on saturday the eve of managing memorial day walking the massacre of hundreds of thousands of chinese men women and children by japan until then remember to join the underground before in the future trends at facebook instagram. what is the fate of the progressive movement can it continue to co-exist with the mainstream establishment left is this current trajectory intellectual dead end and can progressive be part of a greater political below. in front of.

a few of. us. in this contest a moment to laugh and ask for the past 70 and seeing and on the day today for the rights. commission see you. brits who just shoot on disc in the. engine coming up. teach it mom. you know your new car so said i'm not going to much to. just back yet.

the public versus the police versus the president after weeks of violent protests in france offices voice their anger over a perceived lack of support from among your much ground as they face mounting public austerity you speak with the deputy secretary of the country's largest police union. he succeeded in this tour de force he succeeded to alienate the police 150000 policemen and 100000 gendarmes angry with macro his words unacceptable for a president of the republic. the u.k. prime minister and the european commission president will be holding a meeting on the post breaks it deal after negotiators failed to work out a joint agreement despite the looming deadline. came from.