welcome to the alex savage the vaccine cavalry is coming over the hill and not a moment too soon this week vaccinations against corporate started across united kingdom where the 4 administrations are all struggling with containing the virus while sustaining the accorded me in england or print political revolt has broken nights in the ranks of the governing conservative party and public dissent was reflected in ugly scenes in the streets of london the weekend before last. the national loped and england has come to an end i've been a place to find 80 a system which keeps a vast majority of the country and effective loctite but while in england scotland and northern ireland new covered cases seem to stabilized in wales they continue to increase even with the 4 governments have preached to a joint approach to the 5 days of christmas relaxation that is substantial control

prosy with many scientists warning that the human cost of christmas celebrations later this month could be high in john gotti unfair pretty today we asked 2 top experts how things are shaping up for the festive period and whether tis sensible or foolhardy to permit such celebrations and we ask whether to sniping ceiling for an effective vaccine program or whether there are still potential pitfalls to come but 1st to alex with your reaction to our recent tribute to the late john hume and our show on scotland's national day same time tuesday. i am says so george reid got me involved in politics in 1989 to my mind he was the greatest m.p. this country that scotland has ever seen at 82 he still talks more sense than many of the muppets involved in the scottish and westminster governments today surely and sit and says you don't listen lightning to independence for scotland i was

particularly interested to hear that professor samir mccormack a great figure of the national movement scotland professor of constitutional law at the university european m.p. that will mccormack draw up a constitution on the basis of here's what i made earlier isn't it time to put out for any releasing a pillar fernandez says. laramie a lot from from billy kay one of the guests on the program christine official says i just feel that bore sure that's the prime minister has letters of mass and allowing his disdain of scots who want to diversify from all political agendas to show 100 norful says fascinating to hear of the connections to in scotland in russia once the the country of my birth he doesn't say which one. summing up of of the shore where we're told to vote to how you can assert the 1st saw is described as the jewel dagger between the shoulder blades beautiful exquisite

perfectly poised and deadly and all with a smile and look for the most a moving on to the john hume a sure it is said that was a fascinating and and moving tribute i well remember the troubles in northern ireland it is disgraceful that bracks that threatens the peace our system in donna was great to see that nobody trusts the british government to which an answer of. difficult to say well that's a floor or a feature there by. at the beginning of this extraordinary year when the president of the united states was making fun of the vitus and the prime minister of the united kingdom was not even attending the covert briefing meetings dr chris smith to cambridge for august wind on this program that we were facing the grievous of public health challenges now with the 1st bag scenes arriving alex discuss this with dr smith i'm professor who corneal of trinity college dublin if we can be sure that an effective vaccine would bring this nightmare to any. vessel camille.

welcome to the alex salmond show. thank you both very much the week of the virus in the last low being the approved arm deployed in the united kingdom 2 more coming up in russia where the vaccine has been ruled out a trailer seems to have not one but 2 vote students saw chris murphy over the man who predicted at the start of the year that the pandemic was coming on this program could you know tell us it's coming to an end. i hope so i think this is a wonderful triumph for science isn't it here we are less than a year after we 1st discovered this virus existed and we've got the genetic code we've understood it's biology and now scientists have invented not one but possibly 40 different vaccines there are 3 which are nearing the finishing line in the u.k. this is really exciting and not just really exciting science but really exciting

medicine these things look to be very very effective let's hope they're really really effective in the really long term but for now if we can carry on this trajectory then yes i think this is boris johnson said is the beginning of the end look at beal slightly different position than the average to publicly approval of the 1st vice he doesn't through yet different regulatory authority on the other hand you're covered cases at the present moment simply a bit more under control than they are in the nations of the united kingdom would that be a fair summary it is that it's we're doing great by the way are the laws like europe won't work or average the way down it will it's all up with a level 5 block area here we went straight over the works we've got the virus currently and you've got a very strange situation express almost take a back seat in the north of. the world it was like no it's there and yet we can't get the vaccine and so i mean there is a story theocratic at the moment is that you know clearly we're awaiting the inmate . on this vaccine we don't know the emory with the circus agree it may in the f.

it will approve this seems that we're now but in the strange mix one part of the island is actually you know it's not a virus i think there were you know we had the vaccines even though the class furthur the you said the pfizer vaccine the 1st to be approved as a different type of vaccine is i'm going to cause any public concern you are people not going to say well maybe i should just wait for the office of vaccine which is a a much more conventional stale of vaccine that we would that be a mission. we don't know that we're going to have this vaccine from oxford yet we don't know it's absolutely going to be delivered in terms of approval so therefore the moment we know we have one vaccine which has been approved by the m h r a is judged to be safe it's judged to be very effective at least in the short term so therefore it seems to me that the most sensible thing to do at the moment is to use the one we do have it's any port in

a storm. look at beal as i went out and indeed the rest of the european union are you also looking at pfizer and oxford are the other of the 40 or saw vaccines that close murtha and decatur that might be the ones who are deployed and. it is remarkable how distressed 7 mean for how all these vaccines are and an incredible achievement not be asleep but at least a predictive isolate unit next to the ear may well prove the same or that the mh or air force will see the fire as a one with their own over the next air probably as was only there although that. probably the other week but that's an area that we're very well then you've got so no feet there call it johnson and johnson you know noble acts and then as you mentioned alex of the russian what we've seen cases in the thirty's once so so one prediction is by the middle of next year that maybe as many 8 axioms that they will use in the european union i've no doubt that the mh or so member approved as well

and the question then becomes which will you meet some of our convenience storage issues or are less stringent what's on them as we all know by now that i was the one leaving off a cold storage and then another there are old fashioned technologies by the way which are also being deployed in so you're a backseat so it's going to be very interesting to see what happens in terms of which ones use where chris smith but these issues with different types of fact see the county authorities really have the luxury of waiting for that they just have to take as you said what's available and go on with it as opposed to waiting for the the perfect vaccine for the circumstances is quite right and here we are with the well paralyzed by a pandemic and we want to get back to us now in normal as we possibly can assume as we can and what is holding the process up at the moment is just that there is a difficulty making enough vaccine we're talking about vaccinating an entire world population some vaccines are going to be much more useful in certain so. things and

by that i mean if you've got a vaccine that needs to be kept at minus 80 degrees it won't be any use whatsoever in a country that doesn't even have a reliable electricity supply let alone minus 80 degree phrases similarly if you have a vaccine which is very very good at surviving in the field that might be a little bit less efficacious then that's actually argued by a much better benefit and a much better prospect to use that in a poor country where actually survival of the agent when you can't keep it in the fridge really matters so actually the more horses we've got in this race the better as far as i'm concerned because it means there's more supply chains there's more reliability of supplies and there's more scale because at the moment the bottleneck is making enough of the stuff fast enough and look at be able army irish government and the other of european governments are they set on the same progression of. oxford up or may they be ringing up beijing or ringing up to the clam when saying

you have a few 1000000 spare dollars is that you can give us some in the open is the field in the stew that the others government for example have a good take on which vaccines they are going to be distributing way in to the population not really if i go across the city of us in the sense i mean it will be stepwise russian one interesting because that's very widely used in several countries where the chinese like scenes in the middle east and in morocco you know that the millions and millions of people being vaccinated with all these things and they will hopefully release the data and then you might as christo you might see a more efficacious relation made maybe you know younger people might respond well to war and you know it's all kinds of questions that will never be answered mark about period elements of it is the science of what we call face or it's going to be really interesting a face for if it's approved and then you pharmacovigilance it that's going to be very close monitoring of the mean back scenes in terms of us also this we're going to get you are coming months and we may in s.

then which vaccine that you. both people talk about vaccinating a whole population but i remember speaking to a vessel harley burn center and earlier sure and he pointed out to me and conversation at least the look in this middle is saying what a war they're tired population of glasgow was vaccinated for smallpox in the space of a week or 2 so is it really such a huge logistical exercise to vaccinate a whole population when you have the fool health infrastructure as the nations of the united kingdom. well there are a number of challenges to doing this not everyone's mobile not everyone can get to a vaccination center not enough vaccines can be made available quickly enough not enough people are of are available to give vaccines so organizing those sorts of movements mass movements of people mobilization of vaccines train staff etc it is a logistical headache because not because it's impossible but because we don't have

a simple track record of doing that the entire world is susceptible to this this is a global problem that needs a global solution that global solution is to offer vaccines to everybody everywhere because as melinda gates of the bill and melinda gates foundation very accurately put it if there's covert anywhere there's covert everywhere because it will seed itself back in come back with a flourish if we give it the opportunity fasten your house should the authorities face up to the anti movement in various countries on and on the on the internet i mean it's unlikely in a liberal democracy is that the vaccine would be made compulsorily unlikely if so how should the authorities best face the the arguments to persuade the population to be vaccinated in the numbers that the love of the to have them unity that christmas was talking about bury our example and iraq since it was you know i'm the only employee tiny minority around iraq's really you know and one policy is just ignore them the 2nd one is you where you are the moderates has it's the other ones

the focus on the other with the complaints about maybe as high as 30 percent or more people new vaccine we don't know the long term safety pro or yet now what we do not it is very simple and you start by saying look this vaccine is about protecting the moment it's actually about and that's what you make so many people over 60 or 70 most of the deaths are in that age if you can imagine that if the death rate goes down 2.05 percent so we're going to be that's tremendous it is the fear now begins to go away from this these and you can open up the. so i think more 'd and more because it's no longer a lethal disease after this is actually about in the 1st phase of this and all you can do is appeal to people's sense of community and their sense of reasonableness i think it's also important to say comics given the data we need we need a lot of transparency here so the f.d.a. today actually just issued lots of data from pfizer maxing anybody can rate you know you say there is a safety data there is the africa seen oakley's vaccine and you can you can't make

a month because i just don't speak with them and you know civil liberty and so on so so as to be voluntary vaccination a last thing you might do is give people a choice so for example you might say if you want to go to australia yet you have to have a vaccine if you choose not to go that's fine you know that they make a decision that those kinds of things are now being discussed extensively and are not i'm on the actual mass an advisory group at a special communications committee it will now begin to you know make make arguments to try to convince same has its agree with the facts and it's pretty much an i haven't seen the important. china south of the bay colby asking us to talk expense whether christmas celebrations must have vaccine kalgoorlie coming over the hill out entirely sensible china sign. or.

one else will be wrong. but i'll. just don't call. me i'll get to see how it does that count. and in detroit. the trail. went on to find themselves worlds apart we just on the common ground. welcome back alex is in discussion with dr chris smith managing editor of the naked scientist website i'm professor luke when you professor of biochemistry i tried to call the age dumpling. if you are talking about the concept of

a common sense christmas what do you mean by that amid this controversy in the u.k. under the denial and whether that's a really wise to loosen regulations just when we may be seeing the end of the president well as trying to trump scotland's jason leitch who told everyone to prepare for a digital christmas when it became clear that we were going to be having some semblance of christmas it was important to emphasize to people that this in the same way that many ministers then came out and said this is not a target it is a limit and if you don't want to get together and celebrate christmas you're not obliged to but if you do decide to go ahead please be sensible so what i'm trying to advocate for is a common sense christmas really use your common sense we know who the vulnerable members of society are we know who the people in society who are more likely to have the infection at the moment are the people who are most vulnerable are older people people who are male people who have preexisting health conditions the people who are more likely to have the disease at the moment whether or not they're ill

with it they're certainly potentially infectious are younger people school age children are the biggest group at the moment for obvious reasons they have more contacts with other people so if you're planning on having a get together at christmas it would be sensible if you have older members of your family or people in frail health not to invite them to come and have christmas with you this year wait until next year when a they've been vaccinated be the level of disease circulating in society in the community is very low and that will make a much safer christmas have your christmas like they do in australia have a christmas in july as i celebrated a few years ago when i was there and that can actually be a good thing to look forward to but it minimises the risk on the other hand if you've got very young fit members of your family and you just want to celebrate with them you're much less likely to have in searing problems as a consequence of that so that's really a as advocating for use your common sense in terms of who you mix with and try to minimize the. mixing to the greatest extent possible and that seems clear enough

look in the other the politicians in danger of of mixed messages from both the united kingdom administrations under an island by same we're having this christmas celebration is an effect of leah an invitation for people to gather together to pass on the violence just at the point where you you might see the the end in sight what do you think an island with i think you have an even longer christmas i'm not suggesting in the in the united kingdom this may sound strange as we have sympathy for our obligations as let's take the fates offer them call this one because if they were to keep it strange and people break out anyway because they were desperate to have some relief from this year for so many people so they had a pragmatic approach and they said right 33 households can meet on christmas day see it separately sit it with your own house or only one person in the kitchen you know there's a very interesting that's the guidelines on how to have a safe christmas just talk with some people are going to mix and mingle and the popes are saying close which is the tragedy pride in that you know of the middle of

march and the fear here is gathering at shopping centers and on streets and so on the mask mandates shots where your mask on the street even you know so the trying to limit the damage. christmas why are some countries my least implement test and trace and some countries haven't managed to hit the mark well 1st and foremost this is a really tough disorder to get on top of and the reason it's a really tough disease to get on top of is as some studies have confirmed up to 78 percent of people who are infected with this krone virus may show no symptoms whatsoever when you've got as we did do in recent months in the u.k. $100000.00 cases a day each person will have maybe $5.00 to $10.00 contacts across their periods per day and that means you might be trying to trace down an impossible number of possible contacts that's just not the testing capacity for a star this is not something that just the u.k. is guilty of this is been a major headache for many countries and many jurisdictions around the world that

have found how tough this is to keep a lid on and and that's why it has brought many of the most developed economies in the world to their knees look at meal you mentioned earlier on that the islands figures in recent weeks of look pretty pretty good in european terms and they did in comparison of the united kingdom countries after having a fairly similar pattern in the airlie it courses of the spine demick can you put your finger on what exactly has happened in ireland in recent months of the load the the disease to be better suppressed in the and recent times well again it's a remarkable performance of the irish people are beyond us that we were proud of ourselves in a way because people did comply 'd with the guidelines. and it was it was very simple but the message they got the message 'd you're quite reasonably and you know it was september the law is going to go up like like you but the public health messaging was very strong you know avoid the 3 c's close old ones like crowds

they're not the simple guideline in many of the irish people you know the norm with the young or slightly less so we have been telling people that probably forming a lot. what's happening you know i like that the idea that would be why we let people die you get really sick when there will be vaccines and people think it was on that missed oh well. where are you taking some of these lessons through any of your forthcoming book terminus of elements of the pandemic that you're putting your finger on and saying these are the things we've got to learn for the future there is indeed in my book a skull never mind the bollocks it is the science you see in and it's actually at its sights on the market itself quite well i can't say i've got a whole chapter on vaccines actually and it was ironic or go that i did the proofs during coverts i was able to probe and read the end but the book is actually about using science to help us and i think the 2nd thing i would say about the irish people that they let wanted to see here sign to amaze me that it's on the media stuff and i'm amazed at the level of scientific literacy here so and the book is

saying look science is our friend and here is the case for vaccines for example as one topic in the book so it's been quite timely actually the books and that will be it and then i'm a consigned to splat form a christmas from one of the essential lessons junior colleagues taking out of their experience so far in this extraordinary pandemic. well it's been an unusual time for me hasn't it i suppose because here i am as a consultant for all of just i work as a doctor diagnosing people with virus infections and i teach a cambridge university about pandemics and where they come from and at the same time you know for the last 20 years i've been making science radio programs pop carson occasionally television programs and so it's been a unique fusion for me of a doctor who works on viruses and knows a bit about coronaviruses and also knows a bit about the media and has a media platform if i'd had to sit in my living room and watch you know netflix and whatever 1st 6 months i think i would have gone stir crazy so i'm very grateful i

have had that they they kind of ferociously busy sched chill that i have because it's kept me sane and i feel very sorry for people that have lost livelihoods and lost their sanity in some cases during the last 6 months it must have been absolute era before them a look at me and finally is that the sort of message that is going to get across the island and across the european union countries that the science has to prevail after the sun this huge tragedy that there will be a concentration saying look these are the lessons unlearned they must be unlearned and they must be ready for them to mentation when the next pandemic comes exactly i mean i mean that well with sars or a mary snow's phone she's about sorry i think it was. what i wrote. the new $60.00 so we will be ready next time. maybe more perilous but more importantly i think like the biggest benefit in my opinion is a new vaccine is ease new technology you run your a vaccine approach that it's right for a number of years but now one of them it's

a pretty soon it's like the next and so on that you're in and indeed the oxford they were going to use that against cancer and. so i think one of the big ballot science that we've learnt in this could be deployed with all the vaccine in line but that may be the biggest benefit and lastly i'm. my own area i was going to give my mysteries my area i work and home i work from home which is fine here we got 4 projects on the new empty inflammatory approaches to protect people and go now to cover goes away and out of the way the serving is manageable what we discovered on the inflammatory process could be applied to other family situations you see so so i'm optimistic that was the other medical breakthrough coming up in my own mind kusma finally would that be a bright note and which to end this very very dark. i think this is been a triumph of science it has demonstrated what can be done when we put our minds to it and how ingenious people are we've gone from never having met this pathogen

before to identifying it working out how it causes disease developing a vaccine and then developing ways to produce that vaccine and not just a any of vaccine vaccines that work in brand new ways new science new technology which will have a lasting legacy and which are going to save lives into the future for a range of in a range of different ways and for a range of different reasons so i mean is every reason to be optimistic now for 2021 and would that mean though for a few very briefly that public health and infanticide have to go hand in hand so that when a new pathogen pandemic a marriage is the public health can control it till the science gets a grip of the phrase absolutely it's i mean that's the beauty of this there will be no better than the public are now at last and that's the meat the years we will improve and it won't just be about infectious diseases public health traditionally was and many other diseases as well use these to protect people i mean overall for me it's a triumph of science and medicine as

a way to protect our people through all of these things we've been discussing and i'm not at last we're going to we're going to underline some of the things. people have been trying you know for years anyway so i agree because i think that the future has to be seen as optimistic not round and not downplaying a serious and difficult it's been a very tough year so many ways that we can definitely look more optimistic meets more slowly for you and that optimistic note professor neal dr smith thank you so much for joining me in l.a. simon show thank you very much. many european countries have struggled to contain the 2nd wave of the deadly virus nor is this more true than the 4 countries of the united kingdom where dissent against the patent contradictions in the public health approach has been growing no doubt the post pandemic inquiries will be able to explain why the countries which invented public health were incapable of controlling and modern day vitus asked for example south korea the new zealand have

done fortunately and thanks to belief in scientific work internationally the vaccine program is upon us although it has to be hoped that the organization of the rule light will be more effective than the test interest systems in each country the arrival of the vaccine has lifted the mood of a population growing increasingly restive of restrictions much debated recent weeks has been on the proposed christmas relaxation where politicians seem to be licensing human interaction which the or an expert to tell them will result in an evitable surge in cases just at the very point where the vaccine arrives. there have been more than 60000 deaths in the united kingdom one of the highest casualty rates in the world hundreds of thousands of others will suffer long term disability many and not just those of us whose immediate family sippin touched by the tragedy of this appalling disease find it difficult to comprehend why the christmas

festival cannot be marked in a more common sense manner compatible with public health the bottom line i quote from the politicians seems to be that people would go ahead anyway but that's a 2nd application of leadership why would people not respond to leadership which says the family celebrations could be delayed until it's safe to do so that perhaps there could be a longer celebration of christmas and easter together who knows it might even allow room at the end for the underlying messages of these great religious festivals to be better considered and understood amid thanksgiving for those who have survived but for now from alex myself and all that the shoe stay safe and hope to see all again next.

thank you l l to. thank. the global feel money ponzi scheme has at the my 1st collapsing like burning made it all collapse and now we're going back to poverty so the answer is always bad you need actual sound money like gold but of course that doesn't work so much as big coin does and what'll happen is they'll be hundreds of millions and billions of people in the world so their central bank and their their nation state government will say you know we're not interested in money anymore we just want to have our own money have our own peace of mind and you can go away.

to the u.k. a touch is a warning to. those with a history of. drug regulator reveals 6 people died during trials with facial paralysis a possible side effect. of them above the goal but they all know. it's not going to do you get the feeling that this is. clearly getting emotional while calling for tougher cobra destructions in the august when he sees a number of deaths today chance this appeal went over everyone. after 15 years of america germany is the country that does not want to protect its borders against illegal immigration and instead imposing curfew center features and .