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well welcome to. the best of scientists this fundamental question. i guess today has his own formula for tracing the answer joined by professor paul davies. and bestselling author. professor paul davis. bestselling author really great to have you with us today. so i should talk about a special information because i'm a journalist and i work with information a lot now you're interested in this concept of organized information for me as a journalist information is more obstructive a concept than mathematicians think of it as like bits and binary code and stuff without making it to complicate formality and says can you explain what is

information in physics. right say you're correct that we use that data nice but we have a sort of rough and ready idea of what information means and the best definition is that it reduces on certainty so for example if you were going to carry moscow to the metro and you just got random you might quite tight on a 10 minutes or something her friends come along but if you have a timetable it reduces your onset 'd when they train with the ride but their condition one should be can make very mathematically precise about 70 years ago or more we now according to mission period was based on that no showed on production then on said. you're not a simple example you toss a coin if you count out heads or tails i don't know if you use that expression in russia one side on the other and you don't know but when you look you you get the

definite it with nation you quote one bits of information so that's a technical definition and so using that we can apply some biology to the nature of life and it was recognized a long time ago where the famous double helix of the structure of d.n.a. was worked out and that d.n.a. storms the genetic information it's a blueprint if you like of what makes you you meet me and that information has to the store process then right down to manage them manipulate it and so we will reckon hons out of what makes living systems so important this i think us all more express the nation one generation next well they express it in the making proteins or carry hence a puncture wounds so that's the basic idea about how warm i came to exist still the very things oh ok so trading information as if it. no matter was the

stuff out of which the world is builds is one of the avenues in sa that you're pursuing great so what do you get as a scientist when you trade information this way one kind of new understanding about the universe can you find if you accept hypothetically that information is the primal building block of our world. and you've raised a very interesting issue weight understand but as a practical matter information is critical to the operation of biological systems. there's a whole show go by air into magic so now known her about gene entity we can treat the d.n.a. as like the book of life and you can get in there and come on it it and change some of the letters and some of the meaning you can create a robot for so this is current technology so we all understand that but you asked a deeper question about whether somehow information is the primary stuff of which

the universe is built and the american chooses who is john wheeler he it was he who coined the term black hole he was a great advocate of this idea that at the bottom what we might call the great chain of being is information matter we think about atoms or electrons or something we normally think they are the primary stuff but he said no no information is the primary stuff matter is simply a manifestation of various states of information and so yeah wonderful to have it. it's a body that's some of the bits is the bit of information he felt information is a primary source now that's still a minority view. a number of my colleagues feel with us that the universe is really a vast information processing of of that is the ultimate reality of the this thing

we call matter you can you can you can take it you can touch it it shapes all it. it down it's all about information so regarding that question of matter there's an equation of yours that i came across life because matter class information said that means that means information equals life minus matter right can. get information be interpreted it as so all of this include equation. a saudi has one child is a lady of course and it comes from a religious vote so most scientists talk about some as a separate thing and some you think their plates around alongside mine but if i don't buy the word so i've brought is say the mind rethink how

does the brain work out of it have consciousness so we call this sort of rather abstract chain who have a mind we have. consciousness and. we don't think of it as a substance of his i don't but somehow there's a matter of story to tell we have the brain rev sense it's in the frame of electrons signals got rid of the brain and then we've got this extraordinary from of a cold consciousness of material from have to be fitted together now i don't think we've done that yet but. i suppose your question is leading me in that direction to say well if you can from a ship is prime or if. maybe we should think of mind as being primary matter as being 2nd rate i'm counting this a little bit but that idea gerry spanking drenched history it's good idea elizabeth their respective ancient greek philosophy of the ultimately well it is you know tells of sort of as it were a modern stuff of a mass of stuff that's

a big stretch for a book physicist. but unlike many things i mentioned the idea is often a grain of truth and it. can back some of that engine thinking but yeah but i still want to lay ponder on that a little bit because when you talk howet works in your 'd recent book in cells in atoms how can information be on a same level as matter i mean doesn't informationally exist when there is something or someone to read it is an information basically confined to the eye of the beholder. yes so you're absolutely right it's a lot of trying to sort this whole fascinating air 'd of information theory 'd 'd in just 6 rounds land. he famously said information is just what he meant by that is he in 2000 solar flare created it in the it's always tied to math so for example i mentioned d.n.a. a position of new kids hides d.n.a.

in terms of the information in a biological organism in a computer it will be your no one's and zero's stored in. the hard drive or something like that it's always a physical media. the same is true of energy we talk about energy in an abstract sense as more it a mass of it energy can be competitive problem forms without. the 3 different systems of the energy itself. make it spread out a bit but it's always somewhere in a physical system already in a sense it has a life of its own informations a bit like that we can talk about it as if it hasn't been and that exists somewhere do all the time. we. after all the silly and the united states banks billions of billions of dollars by. selling a manipulated information of insider you know it must have in some sense be real

but it's always going to be instantiated in matzoh somehow somewhere about doesn't mean that it can still be a crime rate comes. some information a matter go hand in hand there's no doubt about it where assuming that information is the primal thing right or at least as primal as the matter assuming that information is the foundation of the universe is kind of like saying that nap of a town is the town. yes friends as they map become a territory if it's a one time one map mathematicians will tell you then then the map is the territory . and then i think once what we're discussing here a may be hung up on this this point. in china little bit of a hike or be a dichotomy a train hardware and software in computing. we will understand the computer well

anyway. it's loaded with the appropriate software and i don't draw the analogy here with lush life seems to me like magic but so does this computer i'm talking to you on this computer take a look such as much account as. well as you enter computer science department and. knew when set went in and they pulled it back often they said well if you know it can get silicone here and as it's a couple. of other unsuppressed say to welcome to the show how now it all goes together but we're beginning to understand well you know that that was wrong that you have to go to a contingent of problems and they'll tell you all about the software and about the that's been written into the machine so you need them to some for account rounded. up on their computer is more than the house. and same document does the software have independent existence well shown in

a sense that's because i can pump it i can put it on a memory stick i can send it out of optical fiber it's still have it's. so like in a patents exist in nature but they were using exists in something they're instantiated in something. and so i think that's really what we're dealing with him right from some biology we have to go beyond just saying well there's a past because we don't have that information. has a more active all supervisory role in the big day suggesting development of the embryo it's not just a matter of information being read out everything has to be done. occur around grocery has to be great so detail let's talk about. unfolding. developments of the embryo so this monster is just counting bits and i don't think we understand that more 'd. roles that operate in giving rats.

involving information that we. haven't yet complete the work about as new physics in even russia i believe. so did average fruiting who started thinking about this way back in the one people it's called then take a sharp break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to professor paul davis physicist astrobiologist cosmologist and bestselling author talking about is life made out of information stay with us.

now the financial survival today was all about money laundering 1st because it is cash 3 different. oh good it's a good start well we have our 3 banks all set up here maybe something in europe something in america something overseas or the cayman islands or do we do all these banks are complicit in the tough talk or serious after dealing with all it's a pretty to do some serious money laundering ok let's see how we did well we've got a look at that and i still dream watch for max and for stacey old beautiful jewelry and how about. luxury automobile again for max you know what money laundering is highly illegal if you watch record.

and we're back with professor paul davis physicist astrobiologist and bestselling author paul how is information connected to light in your eyes i mean i heard you say that living beings are information processing systems this could sound simple but if we can for a moment accept that is this what we're for to process information come to like what we make computers for. well that's that some cynics will say. yes. the your body is just a vehicle of mapping we want a lot of information and what not a lot of information. on my reading at it. stop from having to think about the nature of information in biology say we've discussed already in the example everybody knows which is the information in d.n.a. which is copied. so the next generation it's expressed in the development of the

embryo in a very complicated brain but it doesn't stop there because in a cell. we all know we have genes of these genes can be switched on or off but they don't act in isolation they form complex. information sloan's around these combated people doing. biologists figure out more genes for each other's allman they draw on these network diagrams wiring diagrams it can computation and so there's a lot of information processing in those now and then cell signal or signaling molecules. same information combines the other as this great information processing system out here between areas. everybody knows about that and it doesn't stop in terms right through each house systems right up to palm tree scale. and i think we're all these days obsessed by power since

a case in point. but you know paris is a central part of the planetary system the plan for treatises they viruses get everywhere out there like my body could antigovernment so little bits of information that a pasta around and are essential to the health of the planet. i'm going to say. a rat's. ecosystem of life is the original wildlife it's a wave of information. extensor pov just so it's every parent's life but we understand only the bottom level of this and i'm sure there are no other entities or miracles of a belief in anything like that well i think we don't yet fully have. a batch the back straight from how many young people are. watching us and i listen to this

conversation but i would say i was going to make a career of. me that intersection of physics and chemistry and information theory of biology and. that's where the big discoveries were made in the coming decades. in one interview you described life as a complexity that cannot be achieved through fixed rules and there's a famous quote by and saying god doesn't play dies meaning that there's got to be underlying laws for what seems random at the moment are you actually saying that god indeed plays out as if the rules of nature are not fixed but flexible. well using our einstein's language i am in the same god does play dice i he was very much in a minority at the time and experiments in foundations of quantum mechanics of the last few decades are pretty last night doubts that nature is intrinsically unsound

or indeterministic so what einstein meant by god does not play dies his he recognized it's common to have all things were sort of pretty random chance see what he told the beneath that was a hit of deterministic order where everything that happened happened a very particular reason not in principle you could predict exactly what an ass would do if you had that level of detail. we now know that that is not correct experiments of refuting that so there is something intrinsically. indeterministic chancy or open if you like and have our views about systems of it's all may come molecular level of quantum physics introduces absolutely have quantum physics is essential to understanding. but how these things fit together how the. quantum mechanics my ship together with 'd the information processing of living

organisms can carry out some ohio level we don't doubt but this is an area. of them. and so somewhere in that mix is the secret of mine but i come back to end in trying to get out of the founders of confident that. who in 140 s. reagan. gave his friends lectures the time to watch his life for the wrote a book about him he recognized the cause may have exposed the central from the standing the stability of the information content of cells but he also left they had the idea that there may be a new kind of physical mo operating in living matter he didn't say watson who was definite about it but he was for that idea i think it was as if it is a new the physical law 'd operates he lives in mass it doesn't contradict the underlying rules that's for sure. transcendence. in addition to the conceiving systems that exist as you heard but what are your biggest investment as

far as i understand is to find x. a trace your life and he say one of the reasons why we still haven't found it is because we don't really know how life on earth 1st started how does knowing how life on earth started going to affect our researcher on alien life. well but i'm so serious that was a long time ago a lot of. i was a passionate belief in life and death and everybody told i was crazy looking crazy hands people saving money as well look for sharon's it's obvious that life is some complex now that we can surely have half a dozen buns the idea being that there was some sort of amazing chain of chemical reactions leading to this very extraordinary improbable thing we call life will have a journey manchuria the pendulum has swung the other way and now many many scientists

say. you know this is teeming with life where if you have asked like planets as you can chance life whatever other truth is we absolutely don't know because the big step is how do you go from non-life to life isn't something that is going to happen . easily in infants and me wait a few minutes how come or is it the case that it's like a freak. sequence of chemical reactions which prints again are extremely improbable a manhattanite he wants in the universe and we don't know how to answer that because nobody has made life. a long way from understanding how a chemistry tends to live how did molecules organize ourselves into something even a primitive in the gulf is huge. mishmash of chemicals and even the simplest of ripping so we are not we don't know what numbers are pretty and simply don't know that number we can't estimate how many it happens you can

it's we know that in the milky way galaxy there are. probably over half like planets on which life as we know it could be met at least if we took a very good so i say we know there are plenty of candidates. that the chances that. on those planets chemical reactions were 10 to life to be that such probable friends such a basic. unlikely step that a branch of happened anywhere else in the galaxy or company but if i'm right about these gene principles. praising and living matter there are a lot of life. in living matzoh but if we knew their souls but remember him to say oh yes those roles well operate the time chemistry and a life with. probability. then we can put a number to it and the mom we don't have those loans and we have americans for the

number who live beyond the oh so this is complete speculation your beliefs my belief. so if we connect life to information in a meaningful way does that mean that allien life could just be some form of information that is not related to having cells or a certain chemical adamant like it could be as douglas adams suggested a particular shade of blue for instance. jerry. that's a very very good question that it goes to the house what we're trying to achieve in our research. university because. everybody knows this is fear astrobiology it means going to look for lashed the on death because you have to know what to look folks and we know. what terrestrial life is like but what we were not ready is to have some sort of more general definition of what is life and that definition in my view is based on software and hardware.

which a living soul has and is made into it's a way that it information is organized and presses so if it's the case of bad luck if we can to try my life as a particular type of informational organization it's organized information nor does any. 'd let me some very specific definition as eyes of his life than. my money we look for all night informational signature of a software signature issue and i can stay out of the house president johnson sort of concentrate on those they sold out at the right sort of molecules we were people all thinking about does it have the right conditions sold out and nation presses in to take place in and the man other represents life this is all wishful thinking at the moment we don't have a fully worked out there is an issue of life which is independent of the stuff of

which is made. of the end of the day don't that's what it will be about beyond if he exists it won't be a replica of our life. but there were some common principles of those principles i think. software over just right now you have different makes of computers and. their own. well you know i read some later chancel job i have also like plastic you. are all made of stuff but one. individual computer is so distant you breath is the software. just like the hardware has didn't principal. so basic ideas of coding circles will say mr a book. will call it was such a pleasure talking to you at true delight and i hope we get to do this again because the subject is and less and there are so many unanswered questions still

thanks a lot for this chat and good luck with everything stay safe thank you don't really enjoy talking here on pretense ok thank you absolutely. problem drugs don't always come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in every state in the united states we've seen the very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids oids invaded america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really

became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers or the government. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation community. are you going the right way or are you being let. go of. what is true what is faith. in a world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or a maybe in the shallows. midday

moscow time headlining wiki leaks editor in chief confirms to us the authenticity of paul dio proving judas sons tried to prevent. not facilitate the widespread release of u.s. state department documents further chris and a half says courts knew about the tape when deciding on his extradition to america . there's evidence that you. knew 2 ports in the u.k. transcript of this conversation was presented to the poor to some russian olympic committee says this.