beginning to know it's true now e.u. call this idea an illusion that many in washington now call it enemies they read what i'm surprised by is by the sheer backwoods existence and the ease with which it was adopted because i simply can't askin be promises on details and it isn't it ultimately based on the assumption that all monograph dinners are savages because only salvation is in adopting western ways. yes i think there's a lot of truth in that. the west has dominated the world let's say roughly 200 years and the assumptions grown up that the the the western model is universal in other words it's a predictable to and should be adopted by everyone and therefore progress is progress towards adopting a western model and this is to me a nonsense i mean you know historically things don't work like that of course you

know everyone's been influenced by the west that's true over to were in fact you we've been obliged in various ways sometimes the good the west model is good things to adapt to that but the idea that this is now you know the future i mean toro rosso fukuyama is actually a very good very good analyst in my view but you know the end of history will go to the west and i mean it's. a disastrous proposition at the time now in my introduction i mentioned this trope about the chinese award for crisis and i think the the history of that linguistic misconception it is very telling and actually chan's well with your book because. dad a story and region need to read the u.s. political elites app president kennedy was the 1st to use it but that it found its way into the speeches of condoleezza rice albacore and many others because it was such a handy a rhetorical device so it wasn't that the american elites didn't recognize the

ingenuity of the chinese people but for some reason that vision was limited only to see that self interest they only saw what america can get from that rugged and behold picture or what the chinese can get from god why do you think that is what explains such a narrow scope well i think that the west and extremely bad in understanding other cultures. and other kinds of societies. precisely because it believes everyone should be motoring you know in a western direction. so it doesn't really feel the need to understand other cultures and i think that this is one of the great problems the west faces now is that it just doesn't understand china and i you know you can make sense of china well of course you come make sense of john if you know about the really studying it probably and you always assume that you're going to it's going to end up like you which is your requirement so that and so this is actually you know the west likes

to think of itself has already cost the poets. and so on in reality the west is becoming more and more provincial they cook asians only represent about percent of the world's population and the west is roughly you know that's the size of the west . so the vast majority of the will live in very different very a very diverse circumstances with different histories and i think that's you know a beautiful saying about the world now i tend to approach this issues from a psychological perspective and what i find kind of ironic is that there has been a lot of discussion in narcissism in america over the last 4 years primarily connected with that to donald trump but one of the features of these disorder is what is called and narcissistic expansion these unconscious demand that everything and everyone be on debt is your control and that's exactly the use self image or at

least how the united states sees itself on the international irene that isn't and given that actually you know one of the reasons why it expects china and other countries to develop in ways that have only beneficial to the united states you know of course that kind of thinking has become quite you know extreme in this beard under a truck. and. i mean i think we turn to stand this we have to look at american history and the way america developed because baby. it was all by. the destruction of their mary india and and so they they that it was a sort of ground 0 if you like and it came from and so what happened in america was what new european secularism brought with them. and anything different for example african slaves were subjugated and became. a

supplicant to this kind of order so that there is a very strong thread in american history and american psychology of being able not only is controlled america but you know the world and the world should be grateful for this at the same time and so i but i think that this all this culture is in deep trouble no deep trouble i mean we are we're out a moment of history where america is now clearly undeclared i mean if you said this in the ninety's when my book came out many people said you know america's not really in decline that it was published in 2009 of course america's in decline and that process is now being much more widely accepted in america especially during the i'm told is a consequence of the trump. well you seem to be it's being accepted in america but i add also i think that many people think of that as sort of the end of their wealth and and that brings me back to you. i guess the meaning of psychological run

work because you know the ultimate goal is to understand your own idiosyncrasies rather than remake somebody else in your image and you mentioned just a moment ago that americans don't understand china but do they actually understand them solace. well that's. that's a real complication. you know i think. that society is construct an image of themselves. which is partly true and partly false i mean you know this book is on the ground. that when you when you go to another country there are things that are familiar and things that are unfamiliar and sometimes it takes a foreigner. to recognize things that you just take for granted in your society because you never you know sort of look at your look at it like this and i think

this is very true of americans i mean you know i don't come of the figures now but it 3 quarters of americans of don't have a passport or some very high number they get they haven't traveled around the world and of course you know america's a very big country so you can actually live in such a huge country and not travel so americans are very ignorant. if you you know if you exclude the coastal east and west sides in america they're most americans are actually quite procul and there are now going back to china you call it as civilizational state rather than nation state what would be the difference between that you know well i think that you can you know. understand china primarily in terms of being a nation state because china is well the chinese like to say you know a civilization is 5000 years old but let's be more limited than that since it became a unified polity in $211.00 b.c.

for the vast majority of that period since that china was not a nation state china only became well begun to acquire some of the characteristics of a nation state from the end of the 19th century. before that essentially it was a stabilization across a lot of land containing many different peoples many different races and the vast majority of characteristics we associate with china predate china being a nation state so you know confucian values very unusual russia to the state and society a distinctive concept to the family the. chinese as a language. all of these kind of things are. to do with china as a civilization not china as a nation state joined as a complex mixture of being a civilization state and

a nation state as you very important because all sorts of things slowed from. their work the way in which society sees the state in china it is very very different people in china see the state as an expression of themselves difficult to take their own many countries in the world that have that such a strong view of their central or central a take over the state not just to the country but to themselves well that mr jackson has to take a very short break now but he will be back in just a few moments staking. she's going to those who will bring just that and tell him he's on up to the managers by committees and on the on the call because the channels are. planning because of the nothing's enough for a long to name

a country not of the least some of the come up a lot of made up. connelly's an acronym for much of the economy to have more than a combined class of 4 percent. on the other you know. oh man the mustn't think i don't know only a minute i saw a grander goal i'm going to bury myself i'm almost around to. this to turn over them i don't know i don't. know what's going to minimal point out of commission among the going to come up thinking i came up this time she was hoping to go missing obviously you know the i mean give up the abbey down but i'm going to going to open the gap in the coming.

welcome back to worlds apart with that much in takes a mom there are plenty china rules the world mr james before the break really talking about the sort of these different conceptional well being a bit when the westerners and the easterners the chinese in particular and i think one other important factor here is the conception of time because as i was reading your book air currents me that made this change of her rise and your definition of power automatically changes because when you think in terms of 4 or 5 here are a lot and cycles just typical and the west. power becomes primarily about politics and politics becomes a primarily about power but when you have a sort of a longer horizon about here before you than. you can think about what power it is

for what you can achieve with it you know with that power it becomes about development what do you think about that distinction i think this is a very important distinction that you make. you see i think that. i'm not quite sure how what i think of the future of their kind of western style democratic system because it's serious it's obviously got some very serious flaws because it's unable to think. long term. and that problem has become more and more serious actually because there's been a certain sort of run down of the state of the capacity of the state or the civil service and so on and this is very this country is very strongly with china where you know there's a sort of ruling group if you like you know this is actually constituted by the chinese communist party or part of the chinese comes. back is the official son. and

they the whole way which they say you know is completely different they say long term they're also extremely well well informed and. they've got a lot of experience i mean you know take sheed you think i mean he's done many different jobs so he knows how long that filtering system reaches actually far more well i mean on on a professional level far more complex and efficient than you know simply voting for somebody who's add he saw on television and use you know you saw his family and you like him and therefore you are you made a decision to entrust your country into the hands of this man or woman for that reason i mean the chinese system of course from confucius and other saying because of his time is based on the idea of meritocracy where you promote people who has a capacity to do things well this is a very very important part of the way in which the chinese think about governance

so they have a very long term view you think of the 5 year plans and so on they are based on a view about how the countries should vote now quite frankly if you take my government to britain me jerry incompetent. they are incompetent well because you don't know what you think you should list well at least in politics they're not doing development and even if they wanted to do development it's to be a question of whether the system would allow them to do that we should raise me to do that to my next question about why the west is so obsessive on about pushing its political system onto other countries is it really because it needs affirmation because of its conviction that it system is the best of perhaps quite the opposite you know the realisation that things are not working that well and you try to prevent others from becoming who they are reach which is it essentially a definition of anime. i think that the idea grew are particularly after the 2nd 'd

all it goes back much earlier for britain and the united states democracy was. in the best interest of the people because it reflected the views of the people and the assumptions being that somehow that is suitable for everyone i think this is a misconception very. that you know actually this condition so the development of democracy when it comes from europe so what you've got to then take into account what are the specificity of your which are no true of other societies so for example in the 19th century of the evolution of the european nation state was essentially based on one dominant race. so all of the nation states in europe you know in varying degrees are like that now the problem is if you introduce ethnic or racial diversity then that's a very different question altogether and it seems to me one of the reasons why for example it's not worked very so well in africa oh africa doing better but that kind

of notion is because it's him seeks to impose on the african countries a system which is not tolerant of differ to the society it has to be constructed on the basis of different racial groups is essential well it's interesting that you mention that because i think diversity true diversity has a not there sort of layer to it and it's not just cultural but sort of developmental layer i see that a lot not only in china but let's say in russia where we have my native st peters parking lots a chance yeah and loss social customs culture at our plight very differently there and you cannot do anything to bring that to some sort of conformity even if you have unlimited powers or you know to radical powers so it's not sort of a melting pot it's not a mistake it's more about a garden where plans bloom at herat a different paces do you think

a western mind will ever be able to come to terms with di definition of diversity developmental diversity that is culturally direct and produce that is you know the in the development as and the political system as a result of of historic development rather than a precursor to. i think that the west is. is having serious difficulties which are going to get bigger in coming to terms firstly with the world their diversity of the world when the west was so dominant it could. military or economic means get what it wanted but when it's getting weaker what it wanted i mean like when to wage a war in iraq it went to many other places to supposedly get what it wanted did it get it now of course no i mean that was an abject failure because it tried to

impose on iraq a system of government governance and a culture to go with it which was utterly inimical to iraq or afghanistan or many of the other countries so the situation is that i think that the west as it as it becomes weaker will find it less and less able to do impose these kind rick only clear these kind of solutions the other problem is that the west itself is changing certain western countries they're becoming increasingly diverse and you can see in you know take france recently with regard to. the prophet mohammed and you know the french reaction is to impose homogeneous insist on french values irrespective of the fact that the country is no you know significantly multi racial or multicultural and so there's a crisis if you like of culture

a crisis of model within the with within the within the within the western countries it's actually a very good point because we can see that in many other western countries they're finally or suddenly realizing that their farm what diverse than was previously acknowledged one of example i would bring up is it isn't west germany where you can now see statistically see distinct political cultural social differences between east and the west even though it's been always considered that you know west germany is simply swallowed the east and that was the deal we can see divisions india out of states not only because men think occasions and the blacks but also between the coastal america. they fly over country and they have different values they have different goals they have different vision of what america is supposed to be undone and of diversity i think managing that kind of diversity takes more than just school or in the war moral indignation which have been sulfide the the western

ways of dealing with it rather than talking about westernized ation of china don't you think that due west has something to learn from the east in terms of how to deal with those sometimes polarizing differences and how to hourman that how nice them into something resembling genuine unity national unity well i think what we what we're going to say or what we are already saying actually is a process by which. the west the west. notion of universalism is becoming less and less influential and you can see that and lots of ways including the weak weighting of the democratic form as a model and as a and its attraction of us to people and on the other hand you know witnessing the rise of china which is you know in many ways is going to be much more successful in the united states not least because it's relevant to the developing world where 85 percent of the world's population live because they understand the problem of lack

of development and the importance of development so therefore i think that what we'll find over time is that the chinese model or the chinese way of doing things becomes more normative if you like you have to learn from john you have to think about china a different way china does not and never has be never has seen itself as a model it doesn't that it has got a notice on it i know expectation the other countries should have a political system like china it doesn't seem like that but we have so much to learn from a country like china because we're not just still got going for china we should learn from wherever but because of china central it then. china i think stands out in this go now mr jinx there's one more thing i want to ask you about in your book you point out that people in the west and in china conceptualize their governments in totally different ways who westerners believe the government did that or live it

all to market forces whereas for the chinese the state is the patriarch at the top of the table and all the market forces are ultimately subservient to it and i think that has a lot of implications for at how dario's countries and dealing with the current pundak it has its effect on the availability of public health care. you know the your government's ability to introduce sharp and if that if log downs the government's ability to regulate food and drug companies etc do you think there will be any reconsideration of the role of a state in don't ask in the aftermath of call it then 900 as well as perhaps a rebalancing of individual versus collective values because that balance is ultimately the core distinction between the western and eastern civilizations and i think that. is an extraordinary story. because what

this has been is a test that governments. in the west more or less universally the. governments of failed the fact of the matter is you know we're in europe for example we've got a huge thread again ordered and i think that without a vaccine probably. the west will never be able to come to terms with coke we don't actually know then look at east asia confusion basis more so there is more collectivist and. more respectful of the government and the importance of government and you know china's outstanding issues are but you know they're more or less eliminated coated 90 south korea viet nam so this is a really important historical moment western societies cannot deal with

a crisis of this kind they lack a fundamental resilience now mr dix very quickly if i may because we have really running out of time. if the united states under donald trump made no secret that it wants to arrest china's rise and donald trump president to leave office and yet joe biden's policy is expected to carry some of its legacy to it at least in terms of tariffs it is also expected to add on obama's legacy in the form of criticizing china for its human rights do you think joe biden will be able to arouse the trance that you know so i question describe in your book which is. the rise of china and also the rise of the rest of the world with that very unique path to development. of course not he doesn't stand a chance the rise of china is one of the great. the causes and the

reasons for the rise of china very deep. in history so you know you know there's no way that you can stop this process in china is trying to is growing all the time expanding all the time and so on. the role of the rise of the developing world which has been which china's part has been a familiar new trend ever since $945.00 so it should be because 85 percent of the world's population lives in the doing well there's no way the only way for the americans to think that they can stop this process they have to be like king canute inconnu when told to an english speech and said i can defy the charge. do you think you succeeded well it's a my i mean we have seen the star repeat it over and over again with maniac american overseas adventures but for some reason it never actually keeps home which

may be different now let's let let's hold without either calling 1000 or perhaps donald trump as president will be some very humbling pie for the united states or at least an invitation to learn about other countries anyway mr jakes we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us if you can thank you for watching come to syria again next week on worlds apart. from. the. problem drugs don't always. some from i'm scrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in every state in the united states we seem very sharp increase in the number of

people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids oids invented america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the governments. to date industry prefers to spend millions of euros you know being to do daily traditions i will be sniffy all about making money making profits in some of the corporations international markets import export do you imagine the number of chronic diseases that are out in every community today it is new due to new viruses own new microbes that is not true so it is due to environment less will see the

look on a ciggy though the moment all discipline of this sort of muscles of really be a security could only come in to be seen in the to be thought of in the list that they love to play. if the so food industry is successful it will create more jobs it will create more value added it will create more growth so i don't see why you shouldn't also fight for the interest something into st not accept that we are british and we want regulation i was in just a nice we'll be here if c.d.'s fiddle to just fine. as it is a dead. mystery disappearing there. is weapon of mass communication is there.

the gender of entities to deduce any devices. into a 1000000000 going to emanate in a country interviews on you tube affect your mind. if you start to question. that you waited. for me to terminate it. to media. that it is safe. for you to get exposed to r.t. active waves decontaminated i doubt you are as is as brave as it was think.

you can defend yourself and enjoy a. good indication. for r.t. . the enemy of. the top stories of the we cannot see it's revealed that the u.s. state department was forewarned by julian assange is about massive leaks of documents prompting calls now for washington to pardon the wiki leaks founder. british prime ministers accused of canceling christmas as london is locked down following the discovery of a highly infectious new covert strike and while thousands flee the capital a u. nations suspend their travel with the u.k. . the daughter of iran's former military chief assassinated by the u.s. this year gives an emotional 1st interview to r.t. revealing how she learned of her father's murder.