hello and welcome to cross town where all things are considered i'm peter lugo with time running out we'll in should donald trump intervene in stop the persecution of julian assange which also has this tumultuous year comes to an end we assess the cost to average working people in equality is only getting worse.

to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest judging brower and bristol she is deputy leader of the workers' party of britain as well as all that are of the drive to war against russia in china and in budapest we crossed to george w. well he he is an author and a you tube the cattle are across up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to bristol here give me give me and give our viewers the case for giving either a part or dismissal of charges against. because as we all know that when the rumor mills swirling that trump is contemplating a pardon of joining us i should also add when it is known. and give the case to our viewers. well of course in any kind of justice system no case would ever of been brought in the 1st place in my view it's not a pardon we want but it dismissal of the case there is no case to julian assange is

guilty of facilitating the truth of publishing facts nobody has ever disputed anything that unionists are published he was very careful despite the way that he's been presented he was always very careful to make sure that individuals could not be harmed from the things that he published but what he enable to happen was the truth to emerge the truth which was you didn't to us when the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan was launched now the truth was able to come out for 2 reasons one is there was so much resistance by the people in those countries that gave the 1st lie to the big lie that said we're going to liberate these people the war was pushed as a war of liberation it was about democracy it was about human rights you know you talk very often peter on your program about the crisis of legitimacy and where does it come from well one of the big places it comes from is the law is on which we

have gone to war in the last 20 years and the law is against of the lies that took us to war in afghanistan that lies that took us to war in iraq they were 1st of all rebutted by the actions of the people in those countries themselves they resisted they did not welcome in the troops they fought and they fought and they fought and because there is was dragged on there was their opportunity for information to start to come out in the way that it never did with the yugoslav for which was also launched on lies but ended very quickly in these wars that dragged on it was possible for information to start to come out and which leaks played a really important role in exposing the behavior and the motivations of the troops and the governments who were prosecuting the walls and. so in the eyes of people who would believe the lies that took us to will you know george it beautiful some nation that we just heard there you know you know george greatest crime and i put

that in quotes their greatest crime they joined us on community is exposed war crimes and that's why they're persecuting him because he exposed the naked aggression and war crimes that the united states and its allies have committed in these foreign wars that are grossly unpopular right now go ahead george. yes i agree it was he is a great crime and that is why when you look back at all the wars the filthy describes iraq. which would also add to that living. known as these bondage the lies that were probably gaited on behalf of those was how does. the horrific horrific death and bloodshed and destruction of society is that a result was a notice of any punishment none of the people suffer any consequences or imposed

guilt or we can name all of those names you know the david frum the bill kristol all of the people who are in the bushes and chase in the call rows they will have lucrative jobs on the various cable networks and they go down very high say who has suffered as a result of the iraq i kind of libya the truth is they all want to go into prison whether it's a jewel in the sunshine whether it's chelsea manning whether with is edward snowden is the true sailors who have suffered and that's always that he could say that that's right in a way this is the deep state operate that the days of the people who actually expose the war crimes who go to prison because they will say this is this is a violation of the law you know that's and that's the you know they that is inside of the prison go to wolf you know destroy an anonymous 10 thousands hundreds of

thousands of lives a year goes to goes like the professorship at georgetown so. yeah you're absolutely right that's that was due to such a great crime just being one of the things that it it's really amazing if we really think about the whole concept in history of. weeks it only didn't have any traction it was only in marketing there's only one question reason why it was the reason why the leaks because journalism journalists were doing journalism and and that's another thing that and and i think that's one of the most painful things for me is watching a journalist hop on board of let's get julianne saying i mean it's a travesty for the profession and julian assange is there because they didn't do their job own head. that is absolutely right and again that same journalist fraternity has been tied to the imperious woman for a long time and we can see the extent to which people are starting to recognize

that not only in things like the election of donald trump and remember one of the big things he pointed to that really resonated with people was media like this for example in britain recently we had the mori survey of trusted and most and least trusted professions and journalists and politicians now in britain and i think probably the u.s. as well came below estate agents. is they have been a byword for shysters and charlatans for a long time we know they're trying to sell us a pill and we recognize why that is and why they behave the way they behave the fact that we now think the same and even worse about the people who are allegedly supposed to be serving us supposed to be perpetuating democracy shows exactly what people are starting to think about this so-called liberal democracy under which we live. so your question was about. the integrity of gerald.

yeah so the. case in point with julian assange i mean it's really really painful so many people made their careers of the week ulick's capers and revelations the work that you know his comrades did they his colleagues in him putting this information out and enabling the press to have a field day when they want to but now when he is in the dock most of them are looking the other way many of them i mean look harding at the guardian is a classic example of someone who's made his entire career out of wiki leaks and yet has. the whole campaign of vilification against studio this attempt to destroy his character so that there is justifiable for the public not to be told. well to look the other way when he is when he's being crucified in public you know by the british and justice system it's really painful and shocking and it

reinforces people's ideas about gender some not to be trusted. you know just george is also one of the great russia gators as well ok i mean they seem to go hand in hand ok i'm going out for someone that actually did the job that they would do and then on the other hand making a career out of a hoax here and this is i think that this sums up in many ways what journalism is becoming and it's it's hackery it's partisan it's an advocacy and no wonder that the public doesn't trust them in and unfortunately people will go to other sources that may not be how much veracity here and that's when you get a lot of confusion in confusion in the public sphere having said that we can leaks look at its whole history when to get something wrong when it will be just any journalistic outlet help that be the road record that we can link says the answer is no go ahead turn right i mean when you think mainstream go on to that very name

of them that can be delayed denouncing me and my lines not well if you didn't get it wrong well go iraq to the weapons of mass destruction wrong they've got. the air on the libya would be better off without get off your all they've got russia. both i think got yugoslavia horribly wrong that's pretty bad retro now you know wiki leaks yeah as you say what do they get wrong there's not nothing that they've got wrong any black hole. that has. planes that julian has not. used by the russian. has. the conduit or the. e-mails but the credit that hillary clinton and her trumpet the president there's no evidence and no one ever been presented and

he's back. in the secret hearing. of the house intelligence committee and the one with the claim that somehow this is all back by the g.a.o. you actually said well we don't really have any evidence of that in the. crouse right really basically just. looking at happening claims that that was the russian though that's not the whole story and then you go right again is the link between. the wars and wiggling all of that whole story was just absolute nonsense just made out of whole cloth and that is why i don't know whether i don't jump we'll do it in the not but also should see that he is in his interest to do so because the forces that were arrayed against them as not were exactly the forces that were arrayed against them people who were trying to destroy our own was destroyed as president they were the very ones who are calling for a new

a new king but not quite new pink but. hillary clinton. and assassinating him. but the same people that i quite think your. new best interests lay he would they would like yesterday josina do you mention you know the need to smear campaign to destroy julian assange his character let's keep in mind everyone watching this is the it is alleged and some of reported that donald trump offered some kind of come and see your pardon did enjoying a silence before he would give up his sources and as a person that takes it takes his position as a journalist seriously apparently he turned it down because he's not going to burn a source. so look at the character of all the people attacking him and look at joining us are just character 30 seconds go ahead jockey absolutely and this has been something that's been the case all the way through for people who want to see

the truth it's very very clear who has the principles and who doesn't and the presentation of julian assange you know media in the years since the system ruling class turned against him has been truly horrific and the people who are making money out of vilifying him are the ones who should be looking in the mirror truly ashamed of themselves they are getting paid for propping up a system that commits crimes ruthlessly everywhere all over the globe hold out there we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on some real mistakes but r.t. . i.

disagree the 1st to listen to millions of you really do know the. d.-day reconditioning as i will be sniffing are all about making money making profits it's about big corporations international markets import export do you imagine the number of crimean diseases that are in every family it is no due to new viruses or new microbes that's not true so it is due to unbearable loss to see that local. so you know that moment all discipline. goes on really to cuba they could only come in to see the city. if the

so food industry is successful it will create more jobs it will create more value it will create more growth so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interest something in history outset that we are british and we want tribulation i was in just belief we don't behave in the hospital to find. the world is driven by. the day or thinks. we dare to ask.

welcome to cross talk all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing some real news. ok let's go back to bristol this year is coming to an end we discuss what possibly donald trump could do to. give justice to join us on ships he so wishes but as something that. maybe one would claim a lot of his reporters would claim reporters would claim that he's a victim of this pandemic but. i look at it in a very different way i look at what's happened all across the western world particularly in the united states because of the lack of. support for working people here and one of the conclusions of draw on is that a lot of working people at least in the industrialized western world are just

simply not necessary for the elites they just don't really matter and for the unfortunate thing for these are leaves and these people still have the vote to ok because that's where they become a tree they make trouble they make trouble with breaks that they make trouble of voting for for trump well whatever happened to the voting in 2016 others but my point in saying this here is that when you bail out the richest people in the world because the stock market is crashing but you it's a 2nd thought now george and i in the gaggle of talk to many many times about the indecision or in the collapse of the ruling class particularly in the united states to being so stingy in dealing with working people when they already paid off all their buddies go ahead so you're right there is a glaring inequality in the treatment that's been meted out to the richest in the poorest during this financial crash and during this pandemic which have come

together. they did not cause one another but they have come together and they have exacerbated one another very very much but they were also exposed to fundamental flaws and weaknesses in in this current system because it's not simply a question of of unfairness will missile mean this or not caring so much as the logic at the heart of the system which is about maximizing profit and the reason that we have this financial crisis in the 1st place is the impoverishment of the pull in order to. produce more goods more cheaply you need more also mation you need fewer employees that work as an individual capitalist that's how you make the most money but of course that means making people redundant that means making your market smaller you're making more goods but there are fewer people with money in that you can buy it because you have this huge problem where the number of pull is growing exponentially but they are not

a market for capitalist goods if they have no money in their pocket then needs to count and this is the big problem with capitalism the need of the many to consume basic things to stay alive doesn't count for anything in stores the market is consent to produce things and so you have these this constant mismatch and it's driving further and further apart as we have more more poor people and i want to put to mind into an economy that is slanted with capital that doesn't know what to do with itself you know in georgia the the interesting thing here is i really get noid in the mainstream media when they don't use all of these macro numbers you know like g.d.p. and all that it's really quite meaningless ok for the stock market is growing you know like we should all break out a bottle of champagne i mean what percentage of the population own stock ok i mean in the 1970 s. people there was a good percentage of the population of the united states did now that is the case

here but the interesting thing as to which i think you said there is that the economy can expand it can actually grow but it doesn't need a certain percentage of the population anymore and in the united states i would say at least 30 percent they're not necessary ok i mean they can live in poverty it doesn't change the dynamics of g.d.p. and the stock market and all that and that's what's missing here. yes that's exactly right and europe is. what they're happening. decades not. palm we get the is. broke. back to the ridge well larry is that you know when you already have $25000.00 i don't know how many houses there's already that much more than that you can purchase a lot of capital to be doing nothing very much other than you know going into the stock market and you know boosting the some market. you know the way you can

stimulate an economy the way you can stimulate them on and thereby stimulate production is by people having money in that office but then they will never happen because the moment you ask people where the money in their pocket comes to bed or you know there's a central bank saying well there's and then there's a real threat of inflation and they immediately abandon their on that and so now what is really happening is that there is a constant the public political the mom of all the the only way we can get simulants in the economy is by fact but. you know we've already found doesn't do anything the big big fact that donald trump you've been in 2017 there's nothing i mean as basic i had no effect whatsoever the whole idea behind it was that this would be an investment in the law for capital would come back in the united states and they'll be somehow it will be invested in manufacturing is the

key is in the hands of the they don't relate that all happen is they'll be gone by the act which will boost. the value of the jazz held by the stuff all the c.e.o.'s of the doing very nicely but the manufacturing industry you know them over the simulator the whole. you know you know used to invent another derivative that's what you do with this money here ok and try to generate money out of the. most out of nothing here and still be one of the things that really bothers me is that you know if in the industrialized west the middle class has been besieged. good part of 50 years now and this seems to be one of the last nails in the coffin here because you know when you and i am a huge supporter of entrepreneurship and small businesses and medium sized businesses and a good number of good percentage of those businesses are going completely wiped out there's a consolidation we have wealth moving but

a number precedented rate right now and what and at least i can speak about the united states is that that's what entrepreneurship was very much associated with the middle class will you know in the u.s. you're told you can not work you cannot operate your business you're told by the government to do that though they don't help you ok they don't help you get through it all that but you know if you're one of these businesses you know it was like a restaurant you know i mean you know you have to be at 50 percent capacity when you're at 99 percent capacity you're barely making it by you know telling these people to go 50 percent you're telling them to go you say could buy that people put their whole life in to here and it's not going to come back but again g.d.p. is doing just fine this stuff behind it is just doing just fine here and if you if you're working from home you probably did pretty well this year you probably cut down on your expenses because it wasn't as easy to spend money i mean this is how think the economy is changing and i'm still convinced that is take

a recovery people are doing well and the people are doing poorly go ahead yes and of course increasingly the numbers who are doing well a fewer and fewer in the numbers who are doing poorly or who are and mobile i mean really what you're putting your finger on peter i think is just the inherent unfairness of the system and unfortunately how as much we look to the small business model as a kind of fair free trade well do well mostly the reality of life and experience and of history is that small scale comfort isn't leads to big scale capitalism and. it leads to monopoly and small capitalists little entrepreneurs cannot compete with monopoly of you as you have just described a small business person can put their life into a business and then you make anything in the competition to kind of stay going in a well that's dominated by monopoly capital which can shape everything can shape

legislation you know the whole economic and political environment is shaped by the power of monopoly and the idea that little businesses can somehow survive and keep going in this wealth is shown to be a nonsense and 2020 has not created anything new in that respect but it has massively emphasized and accelerated that process ok but george and what we're all describing here there is a historical term for it and it's serfdom this is what it's come out it works it's a new serfdom this is what it is ok because i mean. at least half the population doesn't have the resources and we don't have resources you don't have political power ok. and again you know i don't want to go down that this rabbit hole but you know elections again can have interesting outcomes put it that way ok but when you when you when you take all these resources away from people then you're not you're not even having a stake in it ok i mean if you help you have. a 50 percent of the population

servicing 10 percent of the population and then the rest are just irrelevant to ok i mean that it's a there's some fascinating data out there the top 10 percent there their spending went down maybe like 15 percent but the people that service them their income went down like 75 percent ok it was exactly what you were talking about how many cars can you know how many houses do you need how many picasso's do you need your head or. that's exactly right. so what you're really getting. through the. day and out they go really. the retail business you get a huge plumes of bangs almost no won't transactions on now go to the bank the normal kind. and yesterday and you're right when what happens when jim was quote well with him over the got of the. people are all busy unable to stay but they know how well they are late and they do all right you know they have you know

they have their own private get in their own luxury condos they have very well they can have their own hire their own trainers and as you say the rest the rest of the population real or the middle class you know they can go to blazes i mean are you gonna make it your car rake it in and if they become a ward of the state then sooner or later government will come along and say well you better go in private golf you know you can't go around living off the government well your whole life off you go fight if you don't get waves when government policy impoverished them in the 1st job well i'm going to be the last 40 seconds here i think one thing that we can put to rest here is that a politician saying there's no money more it's ok because we know there's plenty of money when your friends your wealthy friends rent double there's plenty of money or you can say you are done and lot 30 seconds well initial to me it's clear that if there was a will there could be found

a way for an emergency redistribution of the wealth to enable those poorest people who are right now in absolute destitution to be lifted up in the long term we need a completely different system peter well and i want to say that we have someone far left me as a conservative so george thank you very good and we had a very good civilized conversation and you ended our program on a topic we should have another program up and just the west has all the time we have i want to thank my guests bristol and budapest i want to thank our viewers for watching us here narcan see you next time remember. she should relate to those it did just that in japanese and off you don't mind that just pick a museum on the. malls all. the time you can look them up you know for

a long today in my country not in the establishment the map doesn't. show us the economy to have more than a last sept is that. you will soon be. a muslim to get an up close look 30 minute i'm so i'm going to. miss home on. the ground 0 that i'm going to use the term obama i don't know i'm going to go. look at what's going to become a monk. going to come up thinking i'm up to snuff she has no going to go to this accomplishing nothing i mean come on we have to get out what am i doing going to. seem wrong why don't we all just don't hold. the world yet to

shape our disdain comes to the ticket and indeed from an equal betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart when she's to look for common ground. growing list of countries around the world are imposing travel restrictions on the united kingdom following the emergence of a new strain of coronavirus meaning brits abroad may struggle to be. they sent me a text saying a change been cancelled you have to get out of the country now basically you're interested in my family and. joe biden's team is weighing up options to punish russia for what they claim is its role in hacking u.s. government agencies yet to provide evidence as to who's behind the attacks.