every city of new york and author all counter-revolution the global rise of the far right professor bell it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time and thank you for inviting me oksana now you're joining us from the philippines but i'm pretty sure you know what you get vents of the united states quite closely it's a very very complicated picture and we'll try to adapt some of that for starters let me ask you about your main filling your predominant attitude as you look to where the inauguration off joe biden and if you days is it's one of hope. well actually if i may just. give you my sense. a realistic sense of what's going to happen. i think biden is going to be facing a very difficult for years. and. i think the united states is entering an era that will be full of social conflict in

which you will not only have elections but you might have many of those elections by disputes under street as i said in an article that i just did and was widely circulated in the united states the u.s. is entering what i think will be the mark era you know other words an era very much similar to the weimar republic in germany in the 19th twenties where you had 'd conflicts electoral conflicts mixed with. street battles for the sermon who come out on top absolutely and professor people discuss that article in a great i detail i recommend hour of yours to check it out it's a very thought provoking read but bringing you

a little bit back to your own political persuasions i am pretty sure that you are not a supporter of donald trump i think it's it comes out pretty clear in your interviews but would it be fair to say that the democrats dragged of politics is a little bit closer to your heart despite their recognition and i think you articulated if very clearly in your book that it was the alliance of the democratic party the neo liberal globalist corporate forces that ultimately created the conditions on the ground conditions for the rise of trump and trump as. well i would say so i mean i think that the movement represented by donald trump is very much of a far right extremist movement and democratic party politics are more literalistic in that sense and you know way. you would say much more open to debate and discussions to work to go one of the reasons why it's

so difficult to discuss these things in the american context is because u.s. politics is very very bipolar there's very little space for that paradox it's either good or bad it's either extremist or progressive assists and. real life and analysis is always about holding the office it's i want to ask you not as a political person but as this caller as a sociologist e.'s trump and trump isn't really so eerie dim a bully bad as the democrats and their friends in the democratic pro-democratic media present it to be. well my sense is to approach it. you know a social list. category sation of. people and you know the movement that he has created is an extremist movement.

and. can you define what makes it extremist. well my sense is that. it is pushed by a very strong streak of white nationalist. and you know. it i would say that the republican party which used to be a traditional conservative party is now mainly responding to the white nationalist base of come and that is what i mean by extremists in this american context at this point that it is basically being motivated by a. nativist and racist push. and i think people in the united states if for instance if you are. somebody who

belongs to the minorities what you see happening right now in terms of republican politics is going to be very threatening to you if i'm surprised you say that because i have many friends of different color in the united states and some of them happen to be supporters of don't chomp on some of them happen to be african-american who are the minorities but rather than arguing about that can i ask you a counter question because you are not the 1st one to point out that the republican party has pursued the so-called soften strategist since i think the mid 1960 s. but isn't it also true that the democratic party. also has exploited the aspirations of the minorities without necessarily putting in a full hearted attempt to correct the historic wrongs isn't it also true that the

democrats are treating minorities as as a voting group rather than the people who they have to serve. well the democratic party has a very interesting evolution because they're republicans pursued a southern strategy which eventually ended up you know with a very strong racist component as a motivating factor the democrats started out. basically a southern party i mean you know a market that had a very strong southern base. and evolved from being sort of the enablers of racism after reconstruction in the united states to becoming to spark it that eventually ended up being the party of civil rights so i would say yes there are elements within the democratic party you know that you know are very

instrumental list interview off minority issues but at the same time this is also the barkeeper opened up to minorities and where you now have minorities being a very central component in determining where disparity is going at this point i think it's pretty clear that the democrats returning to power in the out for revenge they not only want to punish don't know trump for being done a lot i think it's also pretty clear that they want to eliminate any possibility of him running again in 2024. his twitter and other accounts have been permanently caught the mayor of new york i just announced the city's cutting all contracts with the trump corporation without trump standing any trial as off yet so there is clearly no legal basis for that those are all political moves do you think though that they will achieve the goal that is

eliminating donald trump as a public persona as a major influence in the american politics. my sense is they won't and i think you know that you know donald trump is going to remain. i believe the most formidable figure within the republican party hish stature may be diminished a bit but i think seeing donald trump and having looked at him over the last few years you know this day is not going to go away and that's what they said jail and there are lots of democrats calling for just that this is a double edged sword for the democrat in the sense you know that. it might in fact create a situation where. we'll be no. restraint or . you know what happened in 1023 in germany right where you had the

unique bear hoax that resulted in yet there are going to trial and you're saying that in order to in fact propagate his beliefs and his being in jail you know serve the purpose of the rights of the nazi party so i'm not saying that's not going to be the same thing that would happen in the united states but that is a possibility so either complet be restrained and he will become a smaller figure or it could also be a platform for the future for him well i think if history and psychology of any guidance. prosecution or persecution of tromp is only likely to far then his base. speaking about his base in one of his recent articles i believe it was the one on the parallels with the weimar republic your role of that this 74000000 americans who voted for trump are. after it strikes me as such

a common sorry tale fantasy on the part of the last they they seem to believe that trump is this evil freezer it who curse then a fart of the electorate and it would only take you know. the laugh though it's a progressive riding in an ass not as a knife and the shining armor and kissing you know those who are opposed to bring things back to normal is that really the case is it really don't know trump who is casting the spell on those 74000000 perhaps it's the other way around. in that what those 74000000 are asking him well yes i that's a good point you made when i said. you know that was sort of a metaphor and maybe. i would not use the same method for

a good time because you know in other are to just believe that articulate show i did say that if that's much a creation of that base as a creator of that base so there is a similar kick in fact i would say and i wrote earlier in another article you not you know that if we're. to see you you know pushing very hard on a lot of the themes and issues that post in a in a very strong as i would say white nationalist way if. building that then i think that base would not support him anymore well professor bella let's take a very short break right now but the middle of the back in just a few moments stay tuned. for.

welcome back to well it's a party that bald and bellow off they're all counter-revolution the global of rise of the far right professor bella before the break we started discussing your comparison with ben modern day america and the weimar republic and he wanted that article that the united states may be a far more street violence if it indeed goes that way of germany in the early 20th century because the forces off. when they lose at the ballot box often resort to street violence and i think this is an extremely extremely hot timely warning but i wonder if there is only one revanche is force here john she seemed the same revanche as st agang anger exploiting energies and big democratic side as well. well let me just say that. i've looked at those

in comparison to you know the riots that took place recently in the capital and you know i would say that most of those it's demonstrations were quite peaceful and you know there were a few. i would say comparatively in which there was you know you know some degree of violence but i would say that you know that most of those were peaceful civil rights protests and that's that's the 1st thing i would say the 2nd thing is i've never been to the democrats sort of. forced. in fact you yourself mentioned early on you know that i think one of the recent is that created this base for come among white working class. from

clinton to obama day. a lot of the. you know narrative which ended up with de industrialization loss of jobs loss of jobs to china financialization of the economy from which a lot of americans you know both menarche obsessed about the white working class suffered so i would say that. that. the democrats. over the last. several years. have also contributed to their right off the base now professor bell i know that it's an anathema to any progressive as to here at the peaceful nature of those rides being disputed but you know just. stating south facts here they claimed at least $25.00 lives cost between $1.00 and shoe $1000000000.00 in damages that frankly they rate the costliest rides in the

entire history of the u.s. insurance industry and i understand they dissemble is enough storming the the capitol building but do you think it's intellectually fair considerate that they that as a singular event something that has never happened before ignore all the street violence that has been happening on the streets of the united states for months and months beforehand if you look at what has happened you know over the last few years in which there have been so many incidents you know police killing. americans. and then you see what happened in the charged case you know that the outburst. anger from the afro-american community was very understandable. and yet who were the ones you know who really were provoking so much of the violence if you

look for if you look at seattle you had wrote come groups were don't want stuff we're carrying firearms if you look at our is own or what happened during the elections you know fire people were threatening electro workers so i just don't think there's any comparison between what happened in capitol hill as opposed to the outburst of hunger anger on the streets that's where largely peaceful that occurred during the summer so i would not have this what i would cloak false equivalence you know between what has the right has done and what americans have not been over the summer well i'm not blaming africa i forgot americans in fact i think many of the riots featured people of color and among the criminals there were people of color i think that's unnecessarily stigmatizing to try to sort of symbolize those kind of events and to touch them to

any particular group but just in terms of. you know lives lost and property damaged. you're right there is absolutely no comparison between the riots and the storming of the capitol hill because the rights from much more damaging i mean like just pure fact that going back to the events on the capitol hill. but i would just you know those figures i think i'm not at all actually sure you know when you're saying dislikes where last well you know what are we talking about where dispy people that were hit by police guns you know so you know i mean there's this false equivalence that you're saying what you had on capitol hill was basically. even wine for service certainly one that was killed in the process and there were 4 others but when you're talking about what's happening on the streets. i'm not going to say that you know those lives were cost but after american activists that were

out in the streets i just i had ever saying that either i'm saying that violence has been street violence has been instrumental lies for political purposes during summer and fall events and it's going to well let's look at it this way if i were out if i were an afro american i would be out in the streets and i would not let anybody in the mental i think people's businesses would you be attacking his bio people are elderly couples enjoying that glass of beer on the street i bet you wouldn't because they that of course. i wouldn't do that but at the same time i think that to be imputing you know that those were begun by afro americans i never said. that's what i never i said and. let us say there was

a lot of evidence that where there were provocateurs maybe police people that were responsible for a descent into violence in many of those instances it's interesting you say that because they're 3rd just now are investigating whether the police people and how many police people were present within the crowd that stormed the capitol hill and . you know on some level you can understand their presence there as well because racism is a very entrenched problem in the united states and putting it. on this would be probably also be unfair and it would also be quite manipulative but i want to bring us back to the events of the capitol hill because it's very close to my heart because i've been covering color revolutions around the world for several days. government buildings is it is a whole mark of a revolution that democratic administrations have always cheered the paan take a bounce in the ukraine in 20132014 when pretty much all government buildings were

overrun by protesters take the arab spring a bounce a few years prior by then and a bomb of people cheered it on they described it as the will of the people despite the damage to property despite some people including officials being killed they saw it as an expression of people's will there was no talk of insurrection back then what has changed how the events on the capital feel different from what we saw all around the world in the last couple of years. you know accept and i've been quite critical of american intervention in you know some many other places throughout the world i mean i you know certainly in the case of chile for instance enter all of the central intelligence agency in provoking you know. assisting those right wing groups that took place then so i'm not going to.

say and i think positive about what obama and biden did in the past. clearly you had a situation for instance in the middle east where you know the obama biden intervention in libya created a much more greater problem what i'm trying to say is that whether republican or democrat american. forces you know. you know have traditionally. engaged in a lot of intervention in developing countries developing countries elsewhere so i'm not going to say there. public and interventions and democratic in their very. worst on the other in fact you know that's what we've been so much against since we started speaking about breaking the law and i think it's really looks like one

man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter case i want to ask you. efforts and calls on the part of they a democratic administration to. change the definition of domestic terrorism the biden team even prior to the events on the capitol hill was looking into that they are all in favor of that do you think it's warranted and do you think it's going to be good for america well i don't know exactly the details of this proposed so. you know but i think we have to be very careful you have a situation whereby domestic terrorism you know if defined in a way you know that illegitimacy or makes illegal. protest that is peaceful and that is a legitimate protest and that's always you know very important fine line to to

make sure it doesn't go in defining domestic. protest that ish peaceful and legal as illegal so that's that's that's. i am worried about that and i just want to. highlight and i don't exchange students that it was president of the philippines or digger detective who. pretty much tied it out of the and domestic and to terror legislation in his country in 2020 an. interesting case that has that it's a progressive administration of joe biden that it's moving the exact same measure now putting that aside and one that i think that's being watched that has to be watched very closely because any restriction. legitimated expression of civil liberties have to be opposed to whether it is by the church or it would be by a democratic administration in the united states absolutely i agree and that brings us back to your i think great analogy with that weimer republic because that's

republican lots after hitler was sworn in as a chancellor one of the collator he is governments that have looking up its political opponents decreasing that our freedom of speech their freedom of expression and i think any comparisons with hitler are always many people that if always ill fated but i just want to point out that it's the democratic party that is now calling for changing in the domestic terrorism law that is calling for lucking out people who served in the trumpet ministration and who are restricting the freedom of expression for. trump supporters do you think there is a chance do you see a danger at all for the progressive administration ofa joe biden and. you know on the back of your mind here you are primarily focusing on trump but do you think

the same could happen with his opponents because we all have a tendency of ultimately living out our shadows sure now and definitely i think that would be a danger and. i think that the progressives in the democrat. democratic party who are very concerned about civil liberties you know will be looking very closely at what did biden administration would be doing if in fact a recent move to redefine the. definition of domestic terrorists show us to use it for parkinson's and that could then be used against everybody whatever party i hope that the democrats the progressives in the democratic party and i believe they are looking at this fairly closely at this point in time that this is something that they should not allow and i think it's not only the case of the weimer republic but also of the young soviet republic that is very instructive in

this regard because unfortunately history proves that good intentions and believing that you you and only you are the ultimate incrimination everything good ensuring that wealth they usually it leads to very very disasters outcomes professor bell it's been great. you have their ups and i yes i think it is very important to make sure that whatever party comes to power does not have vist puritanical kind of mentality to be only are the ones that represent the good and because that has been an attitude or a mentality that this led to so much of the faster international. well so as you can see we are not so worlds apart and any more updates on this program thank you very much for being with us today and thank you guys for what you hope to see her again next week on worlds apart.

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