hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle defenders of big tech often exclaimed if you don't like their platforms then build your own well on this edition of crossfire we talk with some intrepid individuals doing just that against all the odds will they succeed. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest we camp in washington he is host of redacted tonight on r.t. america as well as author of bullet points and punch lines in cleveland we have taylor who doc she is a journalist and activist for pre speech and free press and in moscow we have susie dawson she is co-founder of pen quake dot com all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok we're

going to taylor person in cleveland a lot is going on online right now we had right up to before the american election we had a centrally big tech colluding to crush a story that could influence the outcome of the election then we have after the election we have the events of january 6th in washington and a drums banned from most platforms and then we had another platform parlor that was gone and it seems like it's kind of crawling back. taylor what is the state of goa or what's going on right now because later in the program going to talk about a new platform that's coming up and it's kind of for me it's kind of like weeki leaks came into being because journalists wouldn't do their job media wouldn't do their jobs so others are thinking about challenging be big tech because they're not keeping the promise of a fair playing field where everyone would be able to participate in all voices

would be valued so where do we stand right now because from what i can see it's pretty dark. yes all of this really kicked off when we saw president trump removed from twitter and i want to make note that this is a huge disservice to the american people and to the public because we do have a right to access public officials and elected leaders and by removing president term from twitter jack dorsey effectively removed at ability to communicate with the president just to i'm tuesday in fact president trump issued his last round of pardons unfortunately join a sergeant edward snowden were not among that list of pardons and if trumper on twitter perhaps he could have seen the massive call for a science to be pardoned but back to these platforms they are communication tools and communication methods that our politicians do use and we need to have access to that to speak with them now jack dorsey also responded to his decision to ban the president and said that offline harm as a result of online speech is demonstrably real now that is somewhat problematic

because it's a very broad statement that can be applied to just about anything in any speech and it also assumes a causal relationship between online speech in real world violence and we've seen a rapid decrease in twitter followings and we have further evidence that this is just beyond trump because in a race phone call jack dorsey in fact said that they will be removing more accounts about 70000 they said they will remove it this will go on extends beyond the inauguration and the great purge here you know if you know it seems to me that platforms like twitter and facebook and and google what they're doing they're doing is they're substituting their terms of service for the constitution of the united states i mean they make they're above the law because they interpret it and then they will discard with they don't like i mean this is the public square i mean as i said in my introduction if you don't like it you don't build your own well there

monopolies and they make it very difficult for people to build their own ok and they're in there and they're very devious about it too so if they went from having a great cause to just caring about the bottom line and poer hedley. well yeah a lot of people point out you know the terms of service and of these are private companies but in fact we now live in a nation in to some degree a world that is owned by corporations so the idea that these are somehow separate from the u.s. government is is kind of laughable the like you said this is the public square now we should have the ability to communicate without worrying that because we your are saying something that goes against the corporate talking points that are allowed on mainstream media we won't be banned from those platforms now i know i have this crazy hot take that i believe that it is ok to ban people who have jail jump hands of thousands of innocent civilians so that would include trump or hillary are you

know a variety of other is obama peo but that's not why they're doing it if that's why they were doing it and i might feel differently they're doing it because statements that go against what is considered allowable in our like i said corporate media and they've heard what $70000.00 they say they claim pure non followers which look being wrong or even correct is not a reason to take someone off a platform i have many important and interesting conversations with people i disagree with and it will instead they are filtering us all into our tiny little bubbles of allowable thoughts and it is not just a disservice it takes us towards it just so you know well you should read for being stupid ok now let's both agree and i just can't let this pass me i'm here for war you'll never get banned ok that is. exactly what it will get a blood check if you're bored. or you know susie you're really being because of

a new law or i'm thank you why are you doing this i mean there's these huge giants out there and it will be very difficult because they're censoring and control. the public to be relieved to get to know who you are why gate on this journey going to . come to this absolutely necessary 1st and foremost before deciding. quite dot com i start to a number of social media uses across a broad spectrum of different generations and to friends types of people different backgrounds different experience and to print capabilities from a technical perspective and i was amazed to discover that all of them had very advanced awareness and understanding of the ways that they are being manipulated and abused really by the big tech giants the ways the being tracked outside of their browser pages the ways that their relationships and communications are being

met in commission allies and on so to big data companies to cooperations to governments and sometimes to even to security agencies and those users talk to me about their feelings about the impacts on their personal lives and on their relationships and their feeling manipulative they are feeling like they have a total loss of control they are feeling like their relationships and the real world was being directly impacted and if it has by the sense of an online sphere people spoke to me about their relationships in the real world being materially damaged i had some people talking about how their friends had they not sit with them because they were no longer interacting with their continent of course they weren't seeing their friends content which is why they were no longer interacting with. human relationships friends things and unfortunately the

manipulation of what constantly say is actually impacting the way that we feel about each other it's impacting who we relate to who we communicate with and then that has real will to fix you just mentioned about war and how. you weren't me since and for supporting war war is the ultimate manifestation of real world violence and so are advocate for war online as well also example of correction where well how but i can tell you that online since the tech some companies are engaging it is itself results and real world across the poet. taylor what would be essentially what they're doing is they're deciding who can produce this begun line i mean it's extraordinary i mean not only can neatly shut your voice but apparently no you can lose your bank account you can't fly i mean this is this is a whole process of giving people you disagree with the scarlet letter and we're

going to have to live with him for the rest of their lives they're banning people from produce a patient in society. exactly what we're seeing is twitter facebook and these other big tech platforms essentially acting also as publishers as section $230.00 of the communications decency act which was established in 1906 this was still during the early years of the wise for use of the internet it stated that i s p s and other content providers cannot be treated as a publisher and therefore are not held responsible or accountable for 3rd party contents it also ensures that no individual or person or platform specifically can be responsible for the speech of another individual this also impacts bloggers as well hell ever there is this good samaritan provision which it does allow for these private companies to moderate content they can block and screen offensive content or harassment or anything that could be deemed even obscene and this is usually

laid out in the terms of service of course we all agree to this and also in section $230.00 they cannot be held liable for taking any action in good faith to remove harmful contents of the problem. including yes so that's the problem here is that dorothy and sucker go they are removing content and removing users who are going against the accepted narratives and that is the problem here it's being abused however i also want to make note that the movement to repeal section 230 is a very bad mistake because while there is this protection and this being abused by these platforms in these tech giants it's also important to know that if this were to be repealed it's likely that these i s p's in these different tech companies are going to censor content even more and probably not allow even 3rd party content to be on these different platforms because it is unfeasible bull and feasible to

actually moderate all of this content is they could be held legally responsible if there's a. a lot of different opinions about that they'd like that to 30 cut out because it saves them an enormous amount of money and makes them completely irresponsible and they will never be held to account and they get to pick and choose winners ok. i've heard plenty of arguments about amending it and that's where i stand with it right now but leave it in this for me that it was so important here is that you know we have legal system a court system or people you adjudicate grievances here but what why should i accept and i do not accept the ideological outlook of someone like jack dorsey or people over at facebook i mean they're superseding what is called right in wrong when we have a legal system we have a religion we have a customs to adjudicate that and this is being all cut up with and then you need to

have no recourse hedley. yeah there really is no recourse and you know. the fact that they can bait you from these platforms it's not just like oh so why would someone you know doesn't have their twitter anymore so a lot of people's spent a lot years building these things up it's like building a restaurant and then someone just old oses it inside is there's no recourse it really is just drawings careers destroys lives as susie was talking about and the platforms are they have incredible amount of control and as you're saying they're deciding what is right or wrong what's allowed to be said they've even admits up besides just opinion there they're deleting things that are just news coverage literally journalists trying to do independent journalism just the other day a reporter was trying to cover a gun rally not saying she was for or against gun control just saying this is happening and literally that gets heard from you because you can't announce that

the outside world exists for a certain topics i covered them back to the doctor when in front of the senate and after that are great we'll continue our discussion of the interns they are. right now available to people who are overweight or obese it's profitable to self. insure very insulting and i don't think. it's not individual level it's not individual willpower and if we go on believing that would never change this obesity epidemic that industry has been influencing very deeply the medical and scientific establishment for. what's driving the obesity epidemic it's a matter for both of. 3rd

administration we've been down the shaft for 12 years anyway you know big zaman $222016.00 was dollars station to globalization and now it's all coming to. become a battleground in the us in vermont people have demanding the shutdown of a local plant from yankee is right now my focus because it's a very dangerous. power plant the owner is attempting to run the reactor beyond its operational limit this case just sort of puts a magnifying glass on where's the power in this country where is it going is it moving more towards corporate interests who or is it more in the idea of a traditional participatory democracy as powerline with the people this case

demonstrates that struggle in very real ways. welcome back across not where all things are considered i'm hearing the bell dramatically we're talking about the state big tech. we're going to go back to susie here in moscow ok tell us a little bit more about pay and wait because how is it going to be different in the platforms that we're experiencing right now because of the kind of echo some of the things that you said when you 1st enter your question is that all i hear is people complaining about how. the hope of these of these 5 forms have been down ok people are very very frustrated and it's creating this a sense of anxiety you know will you be thrown off too and if you're strong now why

you'll never know. why you know i have a very extensive online existence and every day i'm waiting for something to happen because you know. i do hold very strong views and i'm willing to fight for those views virtually of course so what is your plan to who is going to be different than the ones we have now. i think the pan quite would come deaf as from conventional to products in almost every conceivable way from nor advertising to turning years and to our customer and building our entire product designing our product around the need of our customers to use that as opposed to big kick consent of the customer and they use that to be the product which they sell to the real customer which is cooperations advertises government security agency is so 1st and foremost the user for us becomes the customer and our whole world is built

around serving that use that everything from no cookies on a website no tracking no collecting use information you can create a pen quite dot com user account without submitting an e-mail address or a telephone number we do not cash any information not what is called in the to quote a client of a model which means they use the data goes from the device straight to the block china we are not an intermediary we do not store any of that information being a block chain product makes us incredibly transparent because every years a has a copy of the chain which becomes a public record of the public information posted by the user their content straight on to the we will obviously be moderating on that we're not going to allow child pornographers to use and the web however when we moderate content on and every user on the network can say on what at what time what use that what. mucilage was

moderated by us and for what reason it was moderate said which is just an amazing new world of transparency by comparison to twitter or facebook who a moderate saying millions of messages without providing any real transparent say around those moderation practices. we're solving for 10 major issues with current platforms way i'm not shutter banning accounts we are not jailing people and what julian assange has called the filter verse of one where the information coming into you from your friends and followers as they. tell you later or manipulated by the platform in the information that you send out. with us as not being manipulative might. make you know i suppose and donald trump though is normal is online what would we be would he be welcomed on your lot or. and

a member of the public or since it is our platform mayors up our own and provided that they are not engaged in an act of lawbreaking they're one of the moderates in our platform taylor is one of the things that really irritates me and you know i know the politics politics i know susie's politics they know my politics here but i bet you all of us together relatively easy to determine what should not be put online i think that's common sense more or less dictates what that would be ok obviously child pornography not. inciting violence when there is a it's a real impending were it's possible you know simple things like that and i think we in the it is relatively straightforward and political speech well you know the political speech if you don't like it you should counter it with more political speech see what i don't like about these big forms is they a horror debate they just want consensus and the consensus is what they think i

mean when i listen to dorsey and zuckerberg in front of congress i mean there are no moral support of superiors to me ok i don't i don't know what where they get off and being you know they they're the mandarins of the universe i mean they're not i mean jack dorsey is a an absolute fool because people are fleeing his platform right now and that and you know i have to wonder you know just got to get down to the dollars and cents of it how many angry phone calls he's getting from his shareholders because he's been he's breaking is the the spirit of what we're supposed to be doing online right now and he's in charge of you know enid's to go and we need a serious rethink and and how would a decent conversation like we're having on here we have very deep strong different political point of views here. well what is acceptable speech should not be determined by jack dorsey mark zuckerberg or the staff at facebook and twitter and

unfortunately that's precisely what is happening right now and there's a separate conversation to have in regards to illegal content that's completely different and censoring information that they do not like one of the things i found very disturbing this past year was mark zuckerberg openly admitting to interfering in the election in the united states and he does so by working with a publisher he was working with reuters as well as the f.b.i. in the intelligence community to prevent election interference but that is actually election interference because they change their policies and their behavior and they were restricting content a week prior to the election taking place and that is in fact censorship and this is really problematic that big tank is working with the establishment and i would say probably the establishment democrats in particular is well as the intelligence community it's also a massive insult to the public because it suggests that the public does not have the ability to determine what is real and what is speak and again it is not the job

of a state or a private company to be making these decisions and you know you know leading one of the things that you know i think really interesting is that if you go back to the founding of the united states. when the constitution was being written and the founders. i guess are not the most popular figures obviously but the left here i mean what they said to each other about each other in newspapers i mean it was absolutely substantial is ok and but the public was able to figure it out ok and they respected the public and taylor is absolutely right when these big tech companies they sneer at the publicly sneer at them ok i mean you know canning the hunter by story i mean. and then that is such an insult in the democratic process as well i mean look you know let the chips fall where they may ok they shouldn't be having an editorial decision about it ok and and the the lack of real reaction to

that so that censoring a best story i found really astounding and really terrifies me about the future in which if things do not change go ahead lee well yeah i mean if you think about the time of the founding fathers of the united states the way of communicating those newspapers are employed and if there were pamphlets and if you could be jailed for handing out a certain kind of pamphlet there would be no united states which is basically what we're getting out you know at least people can't hand out the digital employed said they want to do want to give out their opinions and that you know something else i think we need to discuss has is is why we've gotten to this point it's because our ruling elite realize how dangerous it is for people to actually be able to speak to each other it has created large scale change on a relative short period of time it helped create occupy and block lives matter and

the bernie sanders movement and even trumps movement so they realized they needed to get it back in the box where they are in control the corporate powers the corporate elites are in control of the message and they have worked very hard to do that we're seeing yes banning nowadays but because this shadow banning this suppression you know the number of you is that my videos can get is a tiny fraction of what it used to be so this has been going on for years you know but is yeah but it's gotten much more extreme recently now as well you know ali all i can say is that they they want this control and they wanted to build more strength and because they are completely incompetent ok they can run the country into the ground and run a good part of the world into the ground ok and they want to maintain that how ok you know susie that's one of the things that i'm really frustrating is that there's . about all these ideals about you know capitalism in the free market to let these people these this is cherami tyranny controlling the economy controlling people's

lives controlling people's choices ok and the worst of all is that they completely and completely disappear you i mean that's and it brings me to point your citizenship in money union your aunt gately and i don't want to get political here because we've been wrong nice and each other here but that's primarily coming from the left right now and i find that really disturbing and we need to push back conservatives those that don't need to push about i'm sorry go ahead liberals are the last. great no. liberals are not allowed to go. and serve it is not the g.o.p. . i think the entire political spectrum needs to be represented for it to be a level playing field i think it's critically important and even formative experience particularly for your so you have access to different types of information from different perspectives to be able to talk with people with different opinions and different backgrounds i remember when i was in school we

went they are to bring different types of media. closer and contracting opinions to study i strongly doubt that's happening these days are i would think that type of media studies were equipping considered threatening to the assessment as well but it's important for giving people the ability to develop critical thinking skills they must have access to information outside of a narrower siler such as they created for them by the big companies right now and i think that we're just saying more than in take out of supremacy in the online space some of the big tech companies and we're saying more than a decade of incredible. oil and a stabilization as a result and so when i think the bacteria the paris when it was much more free and the ninety's and the. we didn't have the type of substance and so it was a sin that we haven't experienced since things to companies are taking control so i

think that it's time to go back to the future. and online conversations started out as. well while there was a where before there was any of these big tech companies years and can make sense and uses and exchange information with other users it was our. viewers that in about 10 seconds how can they find out more about your platform and quite adult come in q you're. home all right that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests in washington cleveland and most i want to think our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time remember. like absolutely awful. then a 2nd wave is coming the virus is mutating walk 2 blocks away from the apartment

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say i'm a. thank you for. the story 6 that's right. slavery. restrictions in the russian capital. we hear from some of those. i want to get back to corona virus i'm afraid of. dangers for me as a single. country to. europe and north america and some of the us having to travel to neighboring states just to get inoculated.