hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter limbo those of us who watch carefully the russia gate hoax always worried that it would eventually become the foundation for policy the biden ministration has done exactly this and what to do when trump supporters are american liberals embracing the soviet experience. to discuss these issues and more i am joined by my guest patrick headings an

employment he's the editor and founder of the 21st century wire and here in moscow we're joined by bob and she is a political analyst and editor and you know internet media project telling process rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated it was going to patrick can play as well by good ministration is started its foreign policy approaches 0 and of course russia is as always close to the top for some reason and those of us didn't watch the russia gave hoax over these years we always lamented as i said in my introduction that it would it would not bleed into policy well it is done that ok well we we have mixed signals i mean we can talk about the of the 5 year extension on the new start treaty that's about to expire next month which is good news and we always cheer for good news but i wonder if there's going to be linkages because we still have this rhetoric of russia interfering meddling in american politics so it's a. never spoken out lived in

a love of the united states medals in every country's internal politics here so a mixed bag patrick but as i like to do i'd like to stress is that it is dictations story russia gay has bled into policy and that's something that we all worried about go ahead with something that we were warning about from the very beginning is the danger of allowing a sort of official conspiracy theory to permeate into you know public life into the national discourse and of and ultimately into foreign policy those who are the most dangerous part of it and that's very regrettable unfortunately and i think this the fact that none of this actually makes sense from a logical point of view and it's purely based on power politics internal u.s. power politics this doesn't really bode well for the united states as a world power as a sort of competent world power at the top of the sort of the you know the

governing hierarchy of the global is late stage empire i suppose you could call it and it's not really about competence anymore it's about being in power and you keep hearing this domestically in power the transition of power were in power this is kind of a new thing in america we didn't always used to talk like this back through history the power is with the people and normally politicians and government are serving at the pleasure of the electorate at the end of the day but that seems to have basically inverted blend do since peace is interesting. he's talking about how the old cold war paradigm was defined by the west being capitalist christian and democratic and the soviet bloc in the being communist atheist and authoritarian and this is kind of flipped right now in a strange way i would call it instead of capitalism in america you've got crony capitalism and what i would call suicide socialism in. terms of policy atheism is

definitely in the ascendancy in america despite what the christian right might be where they're at and you instead of democracy you have a plutocracy quite clearly and that really coalesce is with power so these dialectic seem to have flipped and in terms of foreign policy they're still going to double down on this rhetoric about we're democratic nations and d 10 this is the new sort of al growth of the g 7 this is the g 7 plus india south korea and australia and that and biden's really going to use this word we're the leading democracies of the world the high council of democracy and this will use this to sort of try to legitimize whatever policies coming down the pipeline god knows what you know the middle east might be in store for or what eastern europe might be in store for but you have these micro-managers now back in power now after they just think thing as if you're going to use the instrument of democracy will

ask how the electorate in the united states what they think about elections right now so i mean it is just laughable on its face ok of course this is 10 thing is it's going to be a substitute for the united nations and be militarized it will mirror nato we seen this movie before it ends badly you know the interesting thing you know from the russian side they always expect the worst which they think they should that's a reasonable position ok. you know who they want to have president you know trump or claim general trump or biden is just and this is ridiculous and it's the it's kind of sophomore and criminology that we've all gotten used to unfortunately but there is a little bit of a difference here since the cold war we had every single incoming and ministration wanting some kind of reset that was the term they used when obama came to power. but that's not the case right now that's not the case now at all i mean it. they

the new administration is darted out openly hostile and then and you know and once on him hostile in the leather of talking about the possibility of extending the the new start treaty which you know we all know historically arms control agreements have linkage ok so if mr blinken thinks otherwise he's shouldn't have his job and i'm pretty convinced he shouldn't have a star but that's a topic for another program go ahead uma well according to the waiters to information biden said ministry is going to expand the creek they they they said they would extend it for 5 years it was all there was open your position 3 prong big door and no one who is now deputy secretary of state you know a pretty important position for someone who is responsible for the deaths of about 13000 people in ukraine you know she was responsible for this transfer of power as they all that but in fact it was a biology school in which at least 38 policemen died you know hundreds were mean

they called it peaceful demonstrations so unfortunately we're dealing here with just a completely twisted you know vision or the universe of the war that these people have i'm very glad that i actually accused the water power yes indeed it was not in fashion in the united states but in the soviet union the what oh it was very important in the beginning you know when bolsheviks can compel soviet oh you know we hold the power that was the slogan that lenin used when he seized power in 1970 so basically i'm not against any leftist only or you're i'm against the tyrian leftist ideology i'm not against liberal ideology i'm against this but the new theory invariant which they have now unfortunately are starting to have in the united states and in that sense again patrick got it absolutely right when he said that the old rules have. someone you know been flipped you know this they start i'm

here i'm going to quote an article by our friend glenn discern on archy's website i think it kind of summarizes what patrick just said the liberal international order has attempted to recast the form a capitalist corman is your pipe with an imperial authoritarian divide however the ideological incomplete media incompatibility between american liberalism and russian conservatism is less convincing for example mcfall former best that russia michael mcfaul cautions against which in smith areas conservative ideology committed to christian traditional theme with family values mike ford views it as a threat to liberal international or the hand of hope well indeed the roles have been flipped i mean and the funny side of it is that who can actually did not plan to be you know that why you know. a knight in shining armor defending christian values he had

a lot more modest aspire nations when he came to power in the year 2000 i think you want to crush it to be a normal east european country you know. expanding its connections to the way where the developer needs to call on i mean in course that with the united states and with your opinion about the problem is that these people you know this ideology pushes him into the conservative camp if you want and make him defend christian values even more than he would probably like to you know you know it's interesting is that it's certainly ideas of georgia cannily of the american ambassador to the soviet union at the very end of the 2nd world war and he came with his famous telegram in foreign affairs you know and it was going to contain the soviet union which i think is very interesting because that's come back into vogue michael mccullough name is already been mentioned here but you have these neo cons and i now i have a new phrase obama come. because that's who's and then what by white house they

like to you know bandy that about but they don't completely overlook what can it actually had to say when the soviet union came to the end and the warsaw pact dissolved then expanding nato would be a catastrophic mistake ok why don't you quote that part of the can in. legacy here go ahead patrick jump it no it is a it's a great point and just to carry on from what demon was saying to the dialectic they're trying to construct is that you know the west is liberal russia is authoritarian and you know anything east is authoritarian and that's the dialectic but really you have to look at the new phenomenon which peter you've just alluded to which is liberal authoritarianism and sort of enforcing global wolken if for instance and if you look at how the media was covering the syrian war for instance in the early days a lot of it was you know we need to liberate these people who are. communities being suppressed they do the same with russia's well they the champion the kurdish

cause because the kurds are woke the kurds are l.g.b. too friendly and this is what we need to get behind they're like us basically we need to support them and so that's the kind of resin detrich that's driving the under. but you have the paradox of realism in the sense that you know if you look at the way can waltz into all the cold war years you know during the cold war to construct a this paranoid it was based on bipolar power distribution globally ok but what you have now is it's never changed the liberal international order liberal internationalism israel ism because you have countries like the united states whoever is the most powerful has the most resources has the most capabilities in terms of the us its hard power soft power with media and also smart power with n.g.o.s that's a new development in terms of you know will to did just. corrupt destabilize

a country of throw it's government in a coup or what not that's was a really articulated very well by the great you know international relations scholars during the cold war because they were really concentrating more on hard power and you know just general heavyweight bout basically but that's the paradox of realism is that realism still governs the liberal international order it's of it's of the liberal international order is a farce and the press don't cover the subterfuge because then that that takes the you know the it gives the game away the last 30 seconds before we go to the break is just amazing how these people confuse historical and old you know when mccoll colds. you know colds. or the need to contain russia he forgets that 50 years late in 1001000 not you know when maybe it was expanding

kevin gave an interview to almost friedman although you know babs but he said the expansion of nato was a mistake and that we should find it is spoken dane and russia in the same way france now go when he can bad will happen to all the capital he'll to the kristallnacht in germany and then make sacked a replica of kristallnacht was in kiev you know when you create your nationalist boy couldn't russian banks it was the same as me. you know you're really out of opinion that these people just don't know history in their own willing to learn it here ok i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion and some real meat stay with hearty.

so we'll see who would be most impacted by having unrealized gains tax the so-called wealth tax would they not be incentivized to do agre. style collapse and profit from the credit default swaps but on america and we always said that once they were successful in destroying what move on to other countries. is that day now approach. in 2040 you know bloody revolution to the demonstrations were peaceful protests to be. revolution is always spontaneous. is it. the former ukrainian president recalls the events of 2040. 8 invested

over $5000000000.00 to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. welcome at the cross not where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing some real news. we had to go back to being here in moscow and to me you sent up after going to an article from the atlantic which was so interesting we should actually talk about it it was published in the atlantic on january the 19th and they decide what to do with trumpets and if i can read the subtitle here the proper response to these extremists is not counterterrorism it's mental hygiene explain the last sentence out. you interpret that. in order to understand it correctly you must be

familiar with the sort of your drill press your psychiatry because it has a very soviet idea that anyone who disagrees with the mainstream is not you know he's somehow not nomo you know he needs to be correct that the soviets even invented a special term for it and they called it all kind of schizophrenia you know these people just don't perceive. the new york times perceives it that means they have schizophrenia you know that moment and it's amazing you know that the author starts 1st. impressions he speaks about puttin in jail everyone who basically was in any way involved in the action i think it was a crime and there should be consequences but putting people in jail for 20 years for 3 minutes of self aggrandizing. though his name was that's that's

cruel you know that's a more moral let me call it what mr graham would writes in that plane take. the law enforcement should come dahlan in charge of all the insurrectionists problem the flex to the greatness posing for photos the vigor with which federal prosecutors have been pursuing them proves that the united states has not been corrupted completely reasons exist to hold such people as these that's the end of the court so basically it reminds me of all of my you as you know when the soviet union. dissidents 1st of all maimed and cian you know if you participate in some kind of a demonstration you know if you disagree openly then you're a good normal you should be ashamed and yes sometimes you should be in prison and of course the west is march more impressive than the east you know just to preempt all the future questions what happened in moscow. on sunday you know all these

people who want to know how long to pull free they would get you know they would demonstrate some kind of a stage and if they spent millions to be kind and they would come there as we did in 1901 we protested against the communist regime but they wanted to provocation and they wanted a clash with police so $4000.00 of them which means you know every person for 3000 people even in moscow moscow is a seat of 12000000 people so he says there were 4000 well they say there are 440000 even if there were 40000 it's just one person for 300 moskowitz they came to the police and the cat scuffles with police using children as human shields you know guys all of 1415 years of age that's not democracy and what happens in the united states simply because you were near that building since it is simply because you were hit in something stupid the federal prosecutors offer you and someone and

they're going to mock the views of you know of mom corruption ok obviously all 3 of us and i'm sure our viewers agree that protest is signed as long as you do it legally in without any use of violence and i think that should be a universal thing that we all should embrace here but patrick here then the. it's not about the events on the capitol for goodness sake ok this is just a cudgel here ok because the the the impending purge was our invasion before the events on the comparable so i mean this just goes back to something that we talked in the 1st part of the program is that there is a liberal totalitarianism in play here and it is all about intolerance and and the refusal to debate i mean it's better to be the platform someone and disappear someone to monetise them instead of being gauging them in this is what this ideology has come to go ahead no it's but it's pretty clear looking at the rhetoric i mean this is. in the atlantic is just unbelievable but in a way it's a good it's

a good sort of lesson of what the sort of mindset is at least in the coastal mainstream media echo chambers but what the direction of travel here is clearly the real the real thing is isn't domestic terrorism here the direction of travel is the federal this federal power the power of the federal government versus everything else basically and so this is this is how it's shaping up the partisans on the left are amazing the democrats is if you look at their output over the last 5 years it's been russia russia russia and there you know they're saying q and on this this online large conspiracy is like the equivalent to al qaida or isis but you know terms of we talked about russia gate actually affects us foreign policy i mean so that conspiracy theory has like real world implications global implications in fact but the problem is you have the liberal intelligentsia you have people who are

populating the cabinet right now they teach at harvard they teach at all these top ivy league universities they've been telling their students absolute fiction for the last 5 years and these people are in charge i think this really there's a degradation of not not not just discourse but there's a moral degree degradation in america at the intellectual at the so-called elite level the main mainstream media level where they don't care they want to blame the internet for the post truth world when in fact they created the post truth world government federal government mainstream media the look at the obama administration the how they wielded federal power how they politicize the department of justice that's what you're going to see under the biden harris administration is a really very authoritarian very much politicizing every agency his cabinet selections are all. based on political identity practically so it means everything

is politicized so this is like obama 2.0 obama established federal power in the executive branch. more than any other president in some cases and now you're going to see the full politicization of everything that it out through all the different civil service and then federal agencies you know you know you know a looking at. the role discourse in the u.s. more and more often you hear the the the there the term to deprogram or reprogram trumps of borders again this has echoes of the soviet union or maybe you know their mission failed mission and i would like to say is the create the new man ok and they fail but we see another attempt being played out here in the west right now is to create a new person one i guess not to be politically correct and what it that what that

does is it in a daze i mean in my opinion i'm not really productive her belly is that this is an attempt to negate there will be the entire. renaissance of western thinking i mean almost every single order they're trying to crush it ok and it's remarkable that it comes up it's coming from the west go ahead. you're absolutely right and just like in the senate union in 2 stages the 1st stage is an told though demonize ational or your opponent i mean m s n b c mr haasan you know. us and b. c. he said that a tribe support us should be treated as a force who would just walk creepy m.r.i.'s simply because they're white and bro and most of quote so this is someone. who says it all imus n.b.c. a former department for whole web security official juliette. am agrees that we

should treat make america great again movement as a terrorist movement and draw up as it's a summer been wound up again out of court so that the 1st stages of the toward the demonization of their opponents you know that all demand is a bad man he's terrible now the creation of the new man is just amazing you know in a 1st thinks which is a magazine devoted to the problems of christianity protestantism there was a amazing article by carl truman just published recently where he writes that people inside the protestant congregations such as south and baptist those of them who do not believe critical race theory are nor won't be considered christians by their fellow protestants and there is a big debate can you be christian and be white at the same time now that's that's exactly what the bolsheviks were arguing about like can you be a communist why not be an appropriate area well yes if you are. if you can be you

know if you all overcame your class privilege if your knowledge they would say if you overcame your white privilege i mean this is the same basic obedience received in a but in a way kind of worst because they've been here for stablish where the energy is now you must conform to that identity and if you're white well that's going to be kind of a tough thing to do i mean it's not you know a prayer of healing your heart suit minds ok and i mean they're actually making making a case where you can not be redeemed again this is part of our western political culture here immediately navigator made of our model one just look where i belong from this home and do here she says that 1st that woman movement has to be decapitated trumpeters should be isolated she's forward should be embarrassed and then trump should be mate mate forced to repudiate them that's exactly in 1000 searches in russia you know or people. they were there foals before they were going

to cuba they had to see all these people who were my friends they're all treat us you know i absolutely have nothing to do with them and that these people. were isolated and that obviously a position inside the party was decapitated so if these are the same good always just same boards i would say ok now i'm you know what i'm sorry better go ahead i know the democrats whatever you call the left which will probably end up being the authoritarian right very soon they talk about inclusive of the they talk about diversity but only in ethnic terms or political identity terms not in terms of political beliefs or for instance the term nationalism has been merged to mean white nationalism white supremacy all of us has been kind of you know put together in one omelette by the media by mainstream discourse and so nationalism is

been kind of demonized as but that's absolute nationalism versus globalism that's a very real political choice that reflects the reality of the of the global situation but it's being basically crushed so that that gives you a clue as to the direction of travel of where the real policy is is going with the people who are basically doing this what to again the danger is if you marginalize a large group of people you demonize them you marginalize them the whole time a goal is to disenfranchise them eventually and when you do that you will create the something that doesn't exist now to compare the trumper white militias and so forth to to isis or al-qaeda doesn't exist i've i have seen any job in new york settlement running out of time but creating a political and then worry about i want to make my guest limited near a muslim. remember.

the big. the be. right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese it's profitable

to self. and sugary and salty and addict and it's not at the individual level it's not individual willpower and if we go on believing that will never change this obesity epidemic that industry has been influencing very deeply the medical and scientific has found. some of what's driving the obesity epidemic it's more about that. when i was a child some seemed wrong but i. just don't know all the yet to shape our is the answer. and in gains from it because of the trail. the one song many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground .

a 3rd night of violence breaks out in the netherlands as riots again flare up over new covert curfews following a weekend of unrest over the country's a tough lockdown. it comes after countries face a shortfall in deliveries of vaccines the supplier astra zeneca the latest to warn it can only provide 60 percent of what it had promised prompting some e.u. states to look for alternatives we were forced to find a new source in order to get foster new breed of reliable facts we have concluded a treaty today under which russia will deliver a vaccine to hungry in 3 stages.