to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst and asking major we have james nokia's professor of international relations at new york university and in beijing we crossed away oh and he is a news anchor and host. and all right gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i was appreciate go to james 1st a james you know we we heard when i was secretary blinken was being confirmed as secretary of state he made some interesting comments particular when it comes to china and he said basically agreed with the trump administration's approach to china how do you take that on board and you see that the the biden ministration will be nuanced when it comes to china or this will be a continuation of the 4 years of the drumbeat ministration go ahead james one of my 1st rules about politics is that words are cheap and you can't always trust what people say in a public forum to be representative of their actual policy i do think they'll be

a significant difference there have been a lot of statements from the incoming biden ministration i think will be a significant difference one of the things that biden has made clear is that he plans to work with america's allies more and also follow more multilateral approaches to china which is different from what what trump did trump was much more into unilateral bullying and it didn't work frankly didn't work it didn't get him results and china itself counterproposals with essential it here it's too little tell at all rules that is the w t o and other kinds of global rules so actually in some sense china's speaking a better liberal game than the united states is in this case because trump has been kind of a nationalist only and previous american presidents have typically been good at saying that well we should have one set of rules that applies to all countries and that of your cio of course is the place where most trade rules are enforced. ok and so it's going to be a shame when what do you what do you think about that and in looking at the new

bike administration because if tony blinken is to be believed and we know that is the assumption that trent trump was a bit on bass thick with china how does he seem see that is the continuation because i think james is absolutely right i mean china russia other the other great powers have said why don't we just play by the rules by international law and it can it can relieve a lot of tensions here go ahead my friend well be there greater joy you again and your team i think. by his hands would be tied to what have so many of them sticky issues to tackle this $1.00 trillion dollars rescue package i would have a hard time to pass the senate let's not forget there's such thing as so the buster and even if both cars this kickstart this budget reconciliation process as far as i know the republicans can still use the loader rama to revive you know and then

revise again this fight and deal for up to a 1000 times so we can expect other party infighting and their course is this issue of racism and if they should be trained the left and their rights and also the different factions within their rights where it will get recognition focused on china here i mean and then in the latter days of the of the trumpet ministration senior level cabinet level officials visit in taiwan ok i mean obviously china doesn't like that ok i mean if we could but we can't blink in essence we're and i agree with james you know you can talk trash all you want nonetheless i mean if we're going to see embassador level. cabinet level officials visiting high pay that something you're not good in the government in beijing is not going to be very happy about. i don't think. let's face it i don't think the trumpet got the issue of taiwan right i didn't say. they believed in judging from his remarks is getting

they show time all right i just think the american public more importantly got it right i mean this is not an independent country its own constitution said republic of china it was what the western society caught the free china versus the communist china i can today and later on of course there is the narrative has become you know the democratic time and worry versus dictatorial c.e.c. let's face it i don't think there can be a wise and reasonable us policy biden policy towards i want a war zone controversy on human rights if there is not anyone's sufficient public understanding about this issue and i'm afraid my friend then that's an. adverse to what is really going on in the public you know michael you 9 know very i mean in the 1st days of the of they abided ministration american troops were moved out of iraq into syria i mean one of the 1st foreign policy moves they made ok it didn't even really make the headlines you had to really go to antiwar dot com or

something like that to find that out so i mean what i'm kind of beating around the bush here is are we going to see a reset of the obama administration with some nuance taken over from the drumbeat ministration of the by the administration michael yes i think you're right on biden of course was the vice president during the obama administration and it had a notorious history of leading from behind i think you're going to see the same thing here again i think it's going to be a more of a compassionate approach a more compromise an approach with china of course was totally different as you say was bombastic in order to basically leverage and get attention and he did that quite successfully at the outcome of course was quite miserable. and as the concert . quince we had. 2 to 2 major powers here that were just going to be enhanced by and i think that biden will be a much more of

a i think he's going to show more of a compassionate type of foreign policy toward china even. and it will not he will not take serious initiatives he will be looking at china more through the human rights prism and that's going to create instant problems i think from china's perspective they're basically saying either late fall or get out of the way because we're coming we're doing our thing we want to abide by all the. international regulations and rules along with russia and if the united states thought for one minute that they were going to use china the playoffs russia in this case it's not going to happen as we did during the cold war by the way if shust not going to happen and so i think things are going to remain relatively stagnant but china will march ahead through that spelman road initiative even though it's had some bumps in its recovery is far far better than what we will be able to muster within the same

time periods and i think that we're going to be seen a rise in china very very quickly and we're seeing it this effect now have it have been a ripple effect even in europe europe is going to probably look more toward china and the far east than it has to go in the united states we already know that in the waning days of the of the church the mass in the end they don't sit by and it's a long term yabby but that didn't mean that the page is already been heard here i think that american foreign policy is so confusing for an outsider that you better start you can say that you have to start hedging your bets right now it's not only foreign policy but they don't see markets in the us any longer that europe is a is an export in country and they ate exporting countries and there we have italy already a member of the belt road initiative that's the beginning of a. and the southern part of the e.u. is going to be gender drift over and so i see this evolving and probably exciting reign in under the by the administration well those lives there's

a lot of kings of the road here because you know i look at the more impulse the blogs writing i mean you know that might fall or leave no offense james arrow and i look at some of that maintains here. i just have to wonder where they think the u.s. really stands in the world right now he's a b. china i mean there's yes there's been so much talk about containing china you know in asia nato great example we've already heard you know relying upon allies want out lies in the name there's a number of members that no one disputes with china what in the world should the united states get involved with the border is the when china in the countries around it but we you talk about that. you know i mean i discount this idea of a nation nato and part of the problem of it is the 2 leading american allies in east asia which is south korea and japan don't get along very well with each other so i think they'd have a hard time it's sort of like greece and turkey a nato you know they have as much disagreement with each other as they do with

china and both of them also have very substantial trade with china in fact china as their leading trading partners extremely important trading partner so they can't offend china and they often disagree with each other it would be very hard to have the same kind of unity that you had in most of nato in the east asian region so on the other hand i'd also agree that the u.s. really is not party to the to the various disputes for example over the south china sea the united states has no claims on the south china sea the argument that it strategically important ridiculous it's critically important chinese trade it isn't to american trade. except for american trade with china so even there those little eyelets are you know in wartime they'd be extraordinarily vulnerable they vizio isolated and cut off from supply so i don't really see mr pidgen important what is important is the oil. under the south china sea and of course the fish resources there now and and understandably the neighboring countries are going to contend over those resources much the way for example norway and britain contended over the

north sea oil until they agreed to a simple but game james that you know if you take being. the assumed or promise military support from the united states off the table i would tend to think that meat was going to beijing here now and then then then the neighbor would have been re and range and so all by itself without an outsider in their weapons of war i mean it seems i mean it seems to me common sense that the neighborhood didn't hear of itself 1st and not invite not sides go ahead. and they fend apparently of this asian nato concept last time i checked most of the r.c. on countries traded more with china than with the united states you know i studied national relations foreign masters in america and most american professors would tell you that greatness of comparative advantage of free trade of lowering many barriers and co tests and you know in many ways of course china still have this

market access issues with some countries but i think to a large extent china is practicing what these western elites were preaching had been preaching over the decades. asian a don't i don't think it is materializing a look at the philippines there has been this goodwill civilian goodwill between people to people china japan you know hundreds of millions not hundreds of millions but probably millions of chinese travel to japan every year to buy products to travel there and there has been this good asian neighbor the relations between china and other countries between other asian neighbors i think at the end of day it is up to these asian countries to us asians to figure out our own problems james say we mean we have to think of military budgets there are. point no one wants to resolve seriously very few people to resolve the conflict on the korean peninsula because everyone's making a huge grift off it you know if it's not broken why fix it go ahead 30 seconds

before we go to the break you know that's why i study the business routes of international relations because i think business understanding business is essential out of things that are presented as national security issues are really about selling weapons and of course there is a big arms business there particularly the more that china can be the bogeyman in the region you can induce the local countries to feel they need to arm and they have are they have armed very substantially although not all of them buy american arms vietnam for example still buys from russia and has recently got some more airtime on ok and huge arms deals i generally don't know but here we go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the biden ministration and china stay with r.t. . knew that the bill of really key sneer those who really can show. they can just be

suitably. left with that surprise on the job just as they are so that. you know none of it is to be in a bull episodes didn't go to seem to skew to the she's. doing your force well you could be in your must understood if not that's a good spirit i didn't do it was more than a 6 put him into and in no. stadia who will choose. to show is to serve as a skinny schulman's for you to post to a place to move to willow's rest of the. social story keep lists but what is. that i would have that happen other hand i am not out of luck though the cut out of

the amount of the money the daily planet to me. this was a good time to. try to move there i. know nothing about how to lobby not why not act and then again why exxon and the whole people we believe just of the o.p.'s. bottom of my case i don't want them up aside johnny had already at the moment i thought a mother how do it all the kids are is it a little on the way to my building i thought the pink i don't want to put out of the most party without all the mother's blood on it. i might. show somebody an accident where

a car goes through what i kneeled sign at the intersection but suggest to the witness said they saw a stop sign instead of a year old sign. in these experiments many people will adopt the suggestion we call it misinformation. and claim it as their own memory. welcome back across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter email to remind you we're talking about the by did ministration and china. ok let's go back to michael in washington let's look at the really the big picture

or maybe the questions that the obvious questions that are on people's mind and i'm thinking michael right here you know this is just the china does not threaten the united states militarily it doesn't but china does threaten american hegemony and for 75 years the united states has gotten used to hedge a monic role in the world and it's being challenged it's not a challenge militarily it's being challenged in almost every other respect and this is something that washington elites cannot stand and and you know i would even go as far as to say is that this is not this cannot be comprehended because of american exceptionalism and that is the biggest barrier in understanding the rise of other great powers this is you know since time immemorial right powers rights and powers fall ok but no one power is the edge of money forever michael no i agree

with that and i think united states still wants to it has its it has actually increased and it has shifted from the middle east attention to to the far east and they end up the subject region now because it seems that that's where the future of conflict is going to be consequently it will be using that freedom of navigation approach and hope that they're going to be able to get countries in the region including india by the way not only on the resource issue but also a freedom of passage but china is is has a limited force projection at the moment i'm always ever at however it will need to protect its interests as it expands the belt road initiative into africa and to let even let america. over the years to come and i would say that by 2050 not only will be the top economic power but the top military power in the world and i think that this is what the united states is grappling with the because it still. holds on to

that exceptionalism concept and and it also has still has outstanding commitments not only to south korea but to japan and i think as as one of your guests pointed out that even though china even though korea and south korea and japan don't are not getting along these days however they still have these commitments to each other i think the united states approach with them would be more compartment a tour in each country and thereby try to retain some semblance of a gemini in that region as as a last resort because as you point out. the united states really has no further compelling national security interest unless and until china those become a world military power and that's where things will become much more interesting and what it meant if i could state with you that it would depend on what it's a means and goals are i mean i mean i think we look at i mean i don't i'm

a i would like someone to make the case to me that you know right now the rise of china militarily is benign for the world but what would a vent would have been more it tipped over it seems to me watching china china is not emerging in reemerging it's reemerging from the western including russian colonialism of the 19th century and it's and i've been there i mean the thing is i think the west doesn't get the non-western country can be successful i think it's a simple as that james is that fair. and during the 1980 s. i was teaching courses about japan and in those days the united states that was all the rage talk about the coming war with japan and japan as the rising new superpower and of course we saw that never happened and i. i made fun of the idea in my classes at the time because i said you know japan had a major economic bubble japan did not have military aspirations to rival the united states and so forth but of course in terms of driving the budget at the pentagon it

was it was something that was worth focusing on for the propaganda value and i think china has much the same role today as you said china is not a military threat to the united states today the united states of overwhelming c. in air power it's likely to remain that way for at least a generation as 2050 it's hard to tell and it would partly depend on whether china feels they need military force but what's very clear is china's very successful in business globally and so i think it's the business rivalry that actually matters is the real substance behind the arguments about national security it's a fact that chinese telephone service and internet services are vastly cheaper than americans and therefore the global competitor and washington knows that telecom internet is the future and if china is winning you know influence in telecom internet around the world that's going to affect the cultural and business environment of the 21st century well and in beijing how do you how do you feel that when james has said there because that's essentially my view because i mean look at

him american media elite for the last 12 months and last 18 months it went from the c.c.p. ok and then it went from president xi to the addicted to the dictator the emperor she i mean you see this change of rhetoric in the last 18 months maybe longer and and it seems to me that in the end you can't disconnect it from the economic turndown from the cold and crisis here because you know the united states you know if you look at its reaction to kobe is it's not it is something you need any american to be proud of right now ok i mean it's just a mess all right in china in china i understand it is on track economic activity has returned growth is returned i live in russia here from fly. a bus stop all the way the kaliningrad the reaction is exactly the same there are no governors you know squabbling over there are scoring points against this guy and this person here it's like there is

a uniform medical system and it's done the same way across you know almost 12 time zones here and i think this is when the media class and and others don't understand about china but china has its own aspirations it doesn't want to export its ideology has no interest in there whatsoever and this is what we're told because where you were told this is the cold war cold war 2.0 except words with china go ahead yeah i mean in that china has been portrayed as aggressive power you know a power hungry country that is aiming to over an hour and overtaking united states in due time. as there is any to hazard and it b. and b. in another country that speaks chinese mentoring as a modern language i mean singapore is one of them but it's a bilingual trilingual society. the lingua franca of the world today is english and also if you look at china's. so what issues with. tongue on taiwan and

their most they you know historical issues. territories that has lie historical and cultural ties with china that is currently china under chinese sovereignty. so media coverage is not fair chance he famously said anti-communism has been this national level idiology in america for 2030 years in his local manufacturing consent. i mean a lot of things are liking you know the entrepreneurship of the chinese society where the business aspect the meritocracy here in china if you talk about how chinese leaders i mean they're selected we went through a grueling college placement process pretty much like those in russia we study skill hard math physics signs. saying order to get ahead in society and being you know i'm i'm glad i understand it i understand within a couple of years they'll be more stem students students studying stem in china

than the entire western world and how to the reason i say ortiz isn't it it's about priorities and what kind of society you want to have keep going. yeah i mean you didn't hear these things in a western society. if there were to be a successful country on kobe contro as you know south korea is often cited i mean stream media or state or china was you know often mentioned but in a negative lights in that they started this and they some ways for them for exploited this virus to damage america if you watch fox that's their narrative so many things are missing you know the rice official media certainly gave rise to extreme abuse in america and only in a having a nuanced understanding of china ever more evil i think that the thing is to go back to michael here is that you know i basically just go to straight to the point here the they they sense of relative failure or a failings is

a projected on someone else i mean donald trump got elected because the russians did that no it's because you had a lot of people that are disgruntled in the country ok and they wanted a change of path the in the that depend demick has ripped through the fabric of society particularly in the middle of america was all businesses destroyed somebody must be to blame oh it must be the chinese i mean this is this constant projection here and it's so and it's not constructive and it actually has potentially very negative outcomes go ahead and i think you're going to see those but the biden ministration i think that they are conflicted. and what has gone unmentioned is that both china russia iran they're ultimately all up on a straight forward path to develop a multilateral world order as opposed to the unit polar world order that has been u.s. led for years and years and years and that is this shift that we're beginning to

see europe has picked up on it as i said and we're going to see the end there we're going to see china or so in that and that's what's bothering the united states as a they see their their their own influence and economic power and military power. welcome back to audience in the snow and the russian foreign minister sergey lavrov is meeting with guy said barel they use a foreign policy chief in moscow we can go live now to the joint press conference to see what they discussed areas where we have difference with my positions and there are a number of patients like that you have reaffirmed our readiness to cooperate in the areas that's are and it's the shell in interesting for both partners and we share that pain and that when you discuss any future to krib agent if either of relationship will happen break the unpredictable consequences of sort of mushing healthfully and that during that strategic review of the relationship with russia

from what i understand is planned in the u.k. or march of this year at the regular as i meant when before they will make a choice towards more constructive fashion the one with the tional regime with east and more pragmatic throughout its relations for a stomach or as to the 1st he'll deal will be contradictions and so we would like to decrease its number but if we are still and neighbors and we all have the responsibility system to continue or the stability it is this is our eurasian continent and we are responsible to the good by comfortable living standards for our it's citizens in theist ask geopolitical it's based on actual it seems that both sides and you're in countries are tied by the many centuries of cultural icons on the people to people contacts and obviously an economy we have a lot of things in common the spider records up 2012 when you started to great

britain over at decreased almost but if you buy them. in life but still the trend to spatio the european union nations feel what we can as a human the endless excuses is the biggest trading partner of the russian federation entrepreneurs you are at the main door and asked her it's for the russian economy at least one of the main and that is not the plan the new buy that sets and make the stuff. indicators of the by little chart earn over our teal. frailing the dynamic is a fact that if and i think that our worry was a lazy man's a good special leads our it was given to us in chilled the fountain and are just ecstatic some think we must use the word being pressed for the battle to marcus and he have been spending christmas we are calling this booty or odd bird called

a raven in the framework of cold feeling it's renewed ations with about us that talked about health care about climate change about of science about education as those areas that act purchasing use that are said and minister is from both sides can prepare a cool idea. still quite a significant above agreements that you and we will try not to drag out special work but if our european counterparts are ready for it they had to go to prison which at least during the talks we heard about later of that was right and that's and we would like to continue to be engaged and political if i look in the days dobbs has reaffirmed ads which it's a useful think profuse garlits of anything else and we have some plans could develop an operation and number all show by bill frist bacterias sectors including counterterrorism and at the drug threats against them. for the human guinea is to come from a and it's an add on the number of auditor actually we have a it's still

a pension is what's the situation in this in the middle ages and then just mr good north africa and in particular we talked about this settlement all the solicitor sign israeli conflict with brazil and we share the same approach but if you think of the city of view of the work all of the food court that of international mediators and from what we understand the new administration in washington is also think along the same lines and we also understand this has not been used so there's nowhere to put to create the preconditions to meet on the missed ours the wreck dialogue which when stylist in the end made a leap to help the hardiest to come up with a solution be part of the 2 state solution that was that trip by the u.n. and we'll be a part of the arafat's lead an issue which we have altered but that out other

critical points just for us including with.