secrets prisons are not usually what comes to mind when thinking about europe however he even the most prosperous can be deceived we've been told there were 2 view houses were allowed to leave prison or worse located only people had access to the story investigators held the uncovered the darkest dealings of the secret services but i mean. you great ignore. for justice on.

a low and welcome the cross for all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the ruling class is rarely agree on much but not when it comes to china it is agreed that u.s. needs to somehow get tough with beijing what does that really mean engaging china while trying to contain it is that even possible the bite ministration will eventually have to answer this question. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst and asking major we have james nokia's professor of international relations at new york university and in beijing

we crossed when one hears a news anchor and host. x e g t n r i generally cross the rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i was appreciate well you know it's going to james 1st and james you know we we heard when i was secretary blinken was being confirmed as secretary of state he made some interesting comments particular when it comes to china and he said a sickly breed with the trump administration's approach to china how do you take that on board and you see that the the bike in ministration will be nuanced when it comes to china or this will be a continuation of the 4 years of the drumbeat ministration go ahead james one of my 1st rules about politics is that words are cheap and you can't always trust what people say in a public forum to be representative of their actual policy i do think they'll be a significant difference there have been a lot of statements from the incoming biden ministration i think will be a significant difference one of the things that biden has made clear is that he plans to work with america's allies more and also follow more multilateral

approaches to china which is different from what what trump did trump was much more into unilateral bullying and it didn't work frankly didn't work it didn't get him results and china itself counterproposals with essential it here and still multilateral rules that is the w t o and other kinds of global rules so actually in some sense china's speaking a better liberal game than the united states is in this case because trump has been kind of a nationalist only and previous american presidents have typically been good at saying that well we should have one set of rules that applies to all countries and that of your cio of course is the place where most trade rules are enforced. ok and so it's going to be a shame when what do you what do you think about that i mean looking at the new bike administration because if tony blinken is to be believed and we that is the assumption that trent trump was a bit on bass thick with china how does he seem see that is

a continuation because i think james is absolutely right i mean china russia other the other great powers have said why don't we just play by the rules by international law and it can it can relieve a lot of tensions here go ahead my friend well be there greater choice again and your team i think. by his hands would be tied yeah what have so many of them sticky issues to tackle this $1.00 trillion dollars rescue package i would have a hard time to pass the senate let's not forget there is such thing as say the buster and even if both cars this kickstart this budget reconciliation process as far as i know the republicans can still use the loader rama to revive you know and then revise again this fight and deal for up to a 1000 times so we can stop the other party infighting and their course is this issue of racism. division between the left and their rights and also the different

factions within their rights where it. is on china here i mean and then in the latter days of the of the trumpet ministration senior level cabinet level officials visit in taiwan ok i mean obviously china doesn't like that ok i mean if we could but we can't blink and it is we're and i agree with james you know you can talk trash all you want nonetheless i mean if we're going to see embassador level. cabinet level officials visiting taipei that's something you're not good at in the government in beijing is not going to be very happy about. i don't think. let's face it i don't think the trample got the issue of taiwan right i didn't say. they blinked and judging from his remarks it's getting they show time all right i just think the american public more importantly got it right i mean this is not an independent country its own constitution said republic of china it was what the western society caught the free china versus the communist china i can today and

later on of course there is the narrative has become you know the democratic time and worry versus dictatorial c.e.c. let's face it i don't think there can be a wise and reasonable us policy biden policy towards i want a war zone controversy on human rights if there is not a new honest sufficient public understanding about this he issue and i'm afraid my friend that that's an. adverse to what is really going on in the public but you know michael you 9 know very i mean in the 1st days of the of they abided ministration american troops were moved out of iraq into syria i mean one of the 1st foreign policy moves they made ok it didn't even really make the headlines you had to really go to antiwar dot com or something like that to find that out so i mean what i'm kind of beating around the bush here is are we going to see a reset of the obama administration with some nuance taken over from the drumbeat

ministration of the by the administration michael yes i think you're right on biden of course was the vice president during the obama administration and it had a notorious history of leading from behind i think you're going to see the same thing here again i think it's going to be a more of a compassionate approach a more compromise an approach that china of course was totally different as you say was bombastic in order to basically leverage and get attention and he did that quite successfully at the outcome of course was quite miserable. and as the concert . when we had. 2 to 2 major powers here that we're just going to be enhanced by and i think that biden will be a much more. i think he's going to show more of a compassionate type of foreign policy toward china even. and it will not he will not take serious initiatives he will be looking at china more through the

human rights prism and that's going to create instant problems i think from china's perspective they're basically saying either late fall or get out of the way because we're coming we're doing our thing we want to abide by all the. international regulations and rules along with russia and if the united states thought for one minute that they were going to use china the playoffs russia in this case it's not going to happen as we did during the cold war by the way if shust not going to happen and so i think things are going to remain relatively stagnant but china will march ahead through that spelman road initiative even though it's had some bumps in its recovery is far far better than what we will be able to muster within the same time periods and i think that we're going to be seen a rise in china very very quickly and we're seeing it this effect now have it have an a ripple effect even in europe europe is going to probably look more toward china and

the far east than it has to go in the united states we already know that in the waning days of the of the church is raising the mass in the end they don't sit by and it's not a long term yabby but that didn't mean that the pages already been there and here i think that american foreign policy is so confusing for an outsider that you better start you can say that you have to start hedging your bets right now it's not only foreign policy but they don't see markets in the us any longer that europe is a is an export in country and they ate exporting countries and there we have italy already a member of the belt road initiative that's the beginning of a. and the southern part of the e.u. is going to be gender drift over and so i see this evolving and probably exciting read in under the by the administration well those lives there's a lot of kings of the road here because you know i look at the more impulse iwas writing you know that my fall or leave no offense game 0 and a look at some of that maintains a year. i just have to wonder where they think the u.s.

really stands in the world right now he's a b. china i mean there's yes there's been so much talk about containing china you know in asia nato for example we've already heard you know relying upon allies will look out lies in the vicinity there's a number of countries that now border disputes with china what in the world should the united states get involved with the border is be when china in the countries around it but we you talk about that. you know i mean i discount this idea of a nation nato and part of the problem of it is the 2 leading american allies in east asia which is south korea and japan don't get along very well with each other so i think they have a hard time it's sort of like greece and turkey a nato you know they have as much disagreement with each other as they do with china and both of them also have very substantial trade with china in fact china as their leading trading partners extremely important trading partner so they can't offend china and they often disagree with each other it would be very hard to have

the same kind of unity that you had in most of nato in the east asian region so on the other hand i don't also agree that the u.s. really is not party to the to the various disputes for example over the south china sea the united states has no claims on the south china sea the argument that it strategically important ridiculous it's critically important chinese trade it isn't to american trade. except for american trade with china so even there those little eyelets are you know in wartime they'd be extraordinarily vulnerable they vizio isolated and cut off from supply so i don't really see the mr pidgen important what is important is the oil. under the south china sea and of course the fish resources there are now and and understandably the neighboring countries are going to contend over those resources much the way for example norway and britain contended over the north sea oil until they agreed to a simple ambit but game james that you know if you take being. the assumed or promised military support from the united states off the table i would tend to

think we'll meet let's go to beijing here now and then then then the neighbor would have to agree and range and so all by itself without an outsider in their weapons of war i mean it seems i mean it seems to me common sense that the neighborhoods didn't hear of itself 1st and not invite not signs go ahead. and they fend apparently of this asian nato concept last time i checked most of the us young countries traded more with china and with the united states you know i study the national relations foreign masters in america and most american professors would tell you that greatness of comparative advantage of trade trade of lowering many barriers and co tax and you know in many ways of course china still have this market access issues with some countries but i think to a large extent china is practicing what these western elites were preaching had been preaching over the decades. in

a dome i don't think it is materializing a look at the philippines there has been this goodwill civilian goodwill between people to people china japan you know hundreds of millions not hundreds of millions but probably millions of chinese travel to japan every year to buy products to travel there and there has been this good at asian neighborly relations between china and other countries between other asian neighbors i think at the end of day it is up to these asian countries to us asians to figure out our own problems james say we mean we have to think of military budgets there are. no one wants to resolve seriously very few people to resolve the conflict on the korean peninsula because everyone's making a huge grid stop it you know if it's not broken why fix it go ahead 30 seconds before we go to the break you know that's why i study the business routes of international relations because i think business understanding business is essential lot of things that are presented as national security issues are really about selling weapons and of course there is

a big arms business there particularly the more that china can be the bogeyman in the region you can induce the local countries to feel they need to arm and they have are they have armed very substantially although not all of them buy american arms yet non for example still buys from russia and has recently got some more or taiwan ok huge or arms deals hi jim they're going to jump in here we got to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the biden ministration and china stay with r.t. . of the.

welcome back to crossfire for all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the by good ministration and china. ok let's go back to michael in washington let's look at the really the big picture or maybe the questions that the obvious questions that are on people's mind i'm

going i'm thinking michael right here you know this is just the china does not threaten the united states militarily it doesn't but china does threaten american hegemony and for 75 years the united states has gotten used of its head to monic role in the world and it's being challenged it's not a challenge militarily it's being challenged in almost every other respect and this is something that washington elites cannot stand and and you know i would even go as far as to say is that this is not this cannot be comprehended because of american exceptionalism and that is the biggest barrier in understanding the rights of other great powers this is you know since time immemorial right powers rights and powers fall ok but no one power is the edge of money forever michael no i agree with that and i think united states still wants to it has its it has actually increased and it has shifted from the middle east attention to to the far east and

they end up the subject region now because it seems that that's where the future of conflict is going to be consequently it will be using that freedom of navigation approach and hope that they're going to be able to get countries in the region. in india by the way not only on the resource issue but also a freedom of passage but china is is has a limited force projection at the moment in our ever however it will need to protect its interests as it expands the built in road initiative into africa end to let even latin america over the years to come and i would say that by 2050 not only will be the top economic power but the top military power in the world and i think that this is what the united states is grappling with the because it still. holds on to that exceptionalism concept and and it also has still has outstanding

commitments not only to south korea but to japan and i think as as one of your guests pointed out that even though china even though korea and south korea and japan don't are not getting along these days however they still have these commitments to each other i think the united states approach with them will be more compartment toward each country and thereby try to retain some semblance of a gemini in that region as as a last resort because as you point out. the united states really has no further compelling national security interest unless and until china those become a world military power and that's where things will become much more interesting with it but if i can state with you that it would depend on what it's a means and goals are i mean i mean i think we look at i mean i don't i'm a i would like someone to make the case to me that you know right now the rise of

china militarily is benign for the world but what would a vent would have been more a tip over it seems to me watching china china is not emerging in reemerging it's reemerging from the western including russian colonialism of the 19th century and it's been. they're i mean the thing is i think the west doesn't get the non-western country can be successful i think it says the simple is that james is that fair. and during the 1980 s. i was teaching courses about japan and in those days the united states that was all the rage talk about the coming war with japan and japan is the rising new superpower and of course we saw that never happened and i had i made fun of the idea in my classes at the time because i said you know japan had a major economic bubble japan did not have military aspirations to rival the united states and so forth but of course in terms of driving the budget of the pentagon it was it was something that was worth focusing on for the propaganda value and i

think china has much the same role today as you said china is not a military threat to the united states today the united states of the overwhelming see in air power it's likely to remain that way for at least a generation as 2050 it's hard to tell and it would partly depend on whether china feels they need military force but what's very clear is china's very successful in business globally and so i think it's the business rivalry that actually matters is the real substance behind the arguments about national security it's a fact that chinese telephone service and internet services are vastly cheaper than americans and therefore the global competitor and washington knows that telecom internet is the future and if china is winning you know influence in telecom internet around the world that's going to affect the cultural and business environment of the 21st century well and in beijing how do you how do you feel that when james has said there because that's essentially my view because i mean look at him american media elite for the last 12 months and last 18 months it went from the

c.c.p. ok and then it went from president xi to the addicted to the dictator the emperor she i mean you see this change of rhetoric in the last 18 months maybe longer and and it seems to me that in that you can't disconnected from the economic turndown from the coby crisis here because you know the. the united states you know if you look at its reaction to kobe that is it's not something you need any american to be proud of right now ok i mean it's just a mess all right in china in china i understand it is on track economic activity is returned growth is returned i live in russia here from a lot of us stock all the way to kaliningrad the reaction is exactly the same there are no governors you know squabbling over there are scoring points against this guy and this person here it's like there is a uniform medical system and it's done the same way across you know almost 12 time

zones here and i think this is just what the media class and and others don't understand about china that china has its own aspirations it doesn't want to export its ideology has no interest in that whatsoever and this is what we're told because we're you there we're told this is the cold war cold war 2.0 except words with china go ahead yeah i mean in that china has been portrayed as aggressive our you know a power hungry country that is aiming to over power and overtaking 90 states in due time. is there any idea has there and it be being another country that speaks chinese mandarin as a modern language i mean singapore is one of them by this i mean will trilingual society. the lingua franca of the world today is english and also if you look at china's. so what issues with the bat on taiwan and their most. you know historical issues. territories that has life story corps and cultural ties

with china that is currently under chinese sovereignty. so media coverage is not fair chance he famously said anti-communism has been this national level idiology in america for 2030 years. in his spoken manufacturing consent. i mean a lot of things are likely you know the entrepreneurship of the chinese society where the business aspect the meritocracy here in china if you talk about how chinese leader s. i mean they're selected we went through a grueling college placement process pretty much like those in russia we study skill hard math physics signs saying order to get ahead in society and mean you know i'm i'm i understand it i understand within a couple of years they'll be more stem students students studying stem in china then the entire western world the reason i say already there's an it it's about

priorities and what kind of society you want to have good go. yeah i mean you didn't hear these things in a western society. if there were to be a successful country on kobe contro is you know south korea is often cited i mean stream media or a state or china was you know often mentioned by the negative lights in that they started this and made some ways for them for exploited this virus to damage america if you watch fox that's their narrative so many things are missing you know the rise of official media certainly gave rise to extreme views in america and only in a heading of new us understanding of china ever more implies that the thing is to go back to michael here is that you know i basically just go to straight to the point here the they they sense of relative failure or failings is a projected on someone else i mean donald trump got elected because the russians

did that no it's because you had a lot of people that are disgruntled in the country ok and they wanted a change of path the that the pen demick has ripped through the fabric of society particularly in the middle of america was more businesses destroyed somebody must be to blame oh it must be the. annis i mean this is this constant projection here and it's so and it's not constructive and it actually has potentially very negative outcomes go ahead and i think you're going to see those with the biden ministration i think that they are conflicted. and what has gone unmentioned is that both china russia iran they're ultimately on up on a straight forward path to develop a multilateral world order as opposed to the unit polar world order that has been u.s. led for years and years and years and that is this shift that we're beginning to see europe has picked up on it as i said and we're going to see the end there we're

going to see china or so in that and that's what's bothering the united states as a they see their their their own influence and economic power and military power being challenged and quite successfully right now and the recovery is going to take years in the united states because of the way we conduct ourselves and as a consequence china is going to emerge much more quickly as a consequence you know and james knowing that you're familiar with the visit of these trapped how is this going to play out with with china because they did they and in simple words or that is that he's trapped is there is a. of a dominant power and then there's a rising power in years 3 things you can do you can give up and let the other one go you can negotiate or you can fight what how do you see that it will within the context of the biden ministration these entities drop go ahead i've often argued this point in part because it has nothing to do with the cities the cities portrayed a civil war between contending forces in the greek world between democrats and old

barracks there was a heavy class component to cities which the whole could notion of it's the city's traffic ok you can i get one answer off i do i love you and my brother grabbing me here but you know what i'm not yeah but if you if you take this city's misused name out of it then i do agree that there is you know variety of a. approaches but i think what's happening in the united states and this part hasn't been mentioned yet is the vast majority of the leading elements of american business have already adapted to the rise of china you know adapted to the rise of china by doing a vast amount of business in china and because you need to expand there and vote with their feet as an apple for example opening a big plant in in her not an and now the latest test slope into a manufacturing plant in shanghai it's citibank is expanding its business including derivatives you know i think it's j.p. morgan recently ordered open derbez trading in china you know american business

loves china american government doesn't necessarily but a large portion of america that generate comedy don't you know why because the government doesn't because they it find so many to get off the hook by blaming someone else gentlemen that's all the time we have you know what i think like as in washington basking ridge and in beijing and i want to thank our viewers for watching us iraqis the next time remember cross toppings. and out of power when i learned how to love their money i'm not out of luck though they're not that i'm not out of the money out of the money there when i met him. this was a good time to. try to move there i don't know mom.

no luck then i want you know how little money not why not check jam there again to our son or ex channing and they'll all people we believe just a little bit here. all of my kids i don't want them up aside johnny boy are you the moment i thought of mother how do it all the kids are there a lot of on on i'm a little white kid might be old enough to go out to the pimp i don't want to put all your love to my work party without all the mother gloating. just. join me every thursday on the alex i'm unsure when i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you there.

russia expel stiffer mats from jim in poland in sweden attendance an unauthorized rallies in support of the jailed opposition leader alexina found. still fighting for justice the parents of a british teenager killed in a row that's involving us filming demand on some point was told that she was a u.s. spy a revelation that could impact the diplomatic community. we need to find out some more information about your status and how are your fans. community hopeful that the government will step forward and your 1st those answers . soon as possible and joe biden claims to play you see.