expels diplomats from germany poland and sweden for attending rallies in support of jailed opposition activist alexei navalny. the global rolled out of russia's sputniks week rotavirus vaccine continues receives its 1st batch. of parents of a british teenager killed in a road accident involving an american woman dumond also soft report was told she was working for u.s. intelligence. and we need to find some more information about her. i'm. hopeful that the government will step forward and give us those answers are. also. joe biden claims to proceed is back in his 1st foreign policy speech but he didn't sound too

diplomatic when it came to russia. the u.s. says it needs to get tough with what does that really mean and is it even possible find out and cross talk next hour news on a way to be here in one hour's time to get you up to speed on the morning global news headlines we'll see about that. hello and welcome to crossfire for all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the ruling classes rarely agree on much but not when it comes to china it is agreed the u.s. needs to somehow get tough with beijing which isn't really me engaging china well trying to. jane it is that even possible the bite ministration will eventually have

to answer this question. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington and he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst and asking major we have james nokia's professor of international relations at new york university and in beijing we crossed away oh and he is a news anchor and host. all right gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i was appreciate go to james 1st james you know we we heard when secretary blinken was being confirmed as secretary of state he made some interesting comments particular when it comes to china and he said basically agreed with the trump administration's approach to china how do you take that on board and you see that the the biden ministration will be nuance when it

comes to china or this will be a continuation of the 4 years of the trumpet ministration go ahead james one of my 1st rules about politics is that words are cheap and you can't always trust what people say in a public forum to be representative of their actual policy i do think they'll be a significant difference there have been a lot of statements from the incoming biden ministration i think will be a significant difference one of the things that biden has made clear is that he plans to work with america's allies more and also follow more multilateral approaches to china which is different from what what trump did trump was much more into unilateral bullying and it didn't work frankly didn't work it didn't get him results and china itself counterproposals with essential it here it's too little too loud all rules that is the w t o and other kinds of global rules so actually and in some sense china's speaking a better liberal game than the united states is in this case because trump has been kind of

a nationalist only and previous american presidents have typically been good at saying that well we should have one set of rules that applies to all countries and that of your cio of course is the place where most trade rules are enforced. ok and it's going to be a shame when what do you what do you think about that i mean looking at the new bike administration because if tony blinken is to be believed and we that is the assumption that trent trump was a bit on bass thick with china how does he seem to see that is the continuation because i think james is absolutely right i mean china russia other the other great powers have said why don't we just play by the rules by international law and it can it can relieve a lot of tensions here go ahead my friend well they're great a choice you again and your team i think. by his hands would be tied yeah what have so many of them sticky issues to tackle this $1.00 trillion dollars rescue package had a hard time to pass the senate let's not forget there's such thing as say the

buster and even if both cars this kick start this budget reconciliation process as far as i know the republicans can still use the older rama to revive you know and they realize again this biden deal for up to a 1000 times so we can expect the other party infighting and their course is this issue of racism. if they should between the left and their rights and also the different factions within their rights where it. is on china here i mean and then in the latter days of the of the trumpet ministration senior level cabinet level officials visit in taiwan ok i mean obviously china doesn't like that ok i mean if we could but we can't blink and it is we're and i agree with james you know you can talk trash all you want nonetheless i mean if we're going to see embassador level.

cabinet level officials visiting high pain that's something you're not good at in the government in beijing is not going to be very happy about. i don't think. let's face it i don't think the trungpa got the issue of taiwan right i didn't say. they blinked and judging from his remarks it's getting they show time all right i just think the american public more importantly got it right i mean this is not an independent country its own constitution said republic of china it was what the western society caught the free china versus the communist china i can today and later on of course there is the narrative has become you know the democratic time and worry versus dictatorial c.e.c. let's face it i don't think there can be a wise and reasonable us policy biden policy towards i want a war zone controversy on human rights if there is not a new honest sufficient public understanding about this he issue and i'm afraid my friend that that's an. adverse to what is really going on in the public but you

know michael you 9 know very i mean in the 1st days of the of they abided ministration american troops were moved out of iraq into syria i mean one of the 1st foreign policy moves they made ok it didn't even really make the headlines you had to really go to antiwar dot com or something like that to find that out so i mean what i'm kind of beating around the bush here is are we going to see a reset of the obama administration with some nuance taken over from the drumbeat ministration of the by the administration michel yes i think you're right on biden of course was the vice president during the obama administration and it had a notorious history of leading from behind i think you're going to see the same thing here again i think it's going to be a more of a compassionate approach a more compromise an approach with china of course was totally different as you say was bombastic in order to basically leverage and get attention and he did that

quite successfully at the outcome of course was quite miserable. and as the concert . we had. 2 to 2 major powers here that we're just going to be enhanced by and i think that biden will be a much more of a i think he's going to show more of a compassionate type of foreign policy toward china even. and it will not he will not take serious initiatives he will be looking at china more through the human rights prism and that's going to create instant problems i think from china's perspective they're basically saying either late fall or get out of the way because we're coming we're doing our thing we want to abide by all the. international regulations and rules along with russia and if the united states thought for one minute that they were going to use china the playoffs russia in this case it's not going to happen as we did during the cold war by the way if shust not going to

happen and so i think things are going to remain relatively stagnant but china will march ahead through that spelman road initiative even though it's at some bumps in its recovery is far far better than what we will be able to muster within the same time periods and i think that we're going to be seen a rise in china very very quickly and we're seeing it this effect now have it have an a ripple effect even in europe europe is going to probably look more toward china and the far east than it has to go in the united states we already know that in the waning days of the of the church is raising the mass in the end they don't sit by and it's not a long term yabby but that didn't mean that the page is already been heard here i think that american foreign policy is so confusing for an outsider that you better start you can say that you have to start hedging your bets right now it's not only foreign policy but they don't see markets in the u.s. any longer that europe is a is an export in country and they ate exporting countries and there we have italy

already a member of the belt road initiative that's the beginning of a. and the southern part of the e.u. is going to be gender drift over and so i see this evolving and probably exciting reign in under the by the administration well those lives there's a lot of kings of the road here because you know i look at the more impulse iwas writing i mean if you know them i fall or leave no offense games they're ok but i look at some of the bait and sear. i just have to wonder where they think the u.s. really stands in the world right now he's a b. china i mean there's yes there's been so much talk about containing china you know in asia nato great example we've already heard you know relying upon allies want out lies in the vicinity there's a number of countries that now border disputes with china what in the world should the united states get involved with the border is be when china in the countries around you but we you talk about that. you know i mean i discount this idea of

a nation nato and part of the problem of it is the 2 leading american allies in east asia which is south korea and japan don't get along very well with each other so i think they have a hard time it's sort of like greece and turkey a nato you know they have as much disagreement with each other as they do with china and both of them also have very substantial trade with china in fact china as their leading trading partners extremely important trading partner so they can't offend china and they often disagree with each other would be very hard to have the same kind of unity that you had in most of nato in the east asian region so on the other hand i don't also agree that the u.s. really is not party to the to the various disputes for example over the south china sea the united states has no claims on the south china sea the argument that it strategically important ridiculous it's critically important chinese trade it isn't to american trade. except for american trade with china so even there those little eyelets are you know in wartime they'd be extraordinarily vulnerable they've

isolated and cut off from supply so i don't really see the mr pidgen important what is important is the oil. under the south china sea and of course the fish resources there now and and understandably the neighboring countries are going to contend over those resources much the way for example norway and britain contended over the north sea oil until they agreed to a simple bit but game james that you know if you take being. the assumed or promised military support from the united states off the table i would tend to think let me let's go to beijing here now and then and then the neighbor would have been re in range and so all by itself without an outsider in their weapons of war i mean it seems i mean it seems to me common sense that the neighborhood didn't hear of itself 1st and not invite signs go ahead. well i'm not a fan apparently of this asian nato concept last time i checked most of the r.c. on countries traded more with china and with the united states you know i studied

the national relations foreign masters in america and most american professors would tell you that greatness of comparative advantage of trade trade of lowering many barriers and co tax and you know in many ways of course trying to still have this market access issues with some countries but i think to a large extent china is practicing what these western elites were preaching had been preaching over the decades. in a dome i don't think it is materializing a look at the philippines there has been this goodwill civilian goodwill between people to people china japan you know hundreds of millions not hundreds of millions but probably millions of chinese travel to japan every year to buy products to travel there and there has been this good at asian neighborly relations between china and other countries between other asian neighbors i think at the end of day it is up to these asian countries to us asians to figure out our own problems james

say we mean we have to think of military budgets there are. no one wants to resolve seriously very few people to resolve the conflict on the korean peninsula because everyone's making a huge grift off it you know if it's not broken why fix it go ahead 30 seconds before we go to the break you know that's why i study the business routes of international relations because i think business understanding business is essential out of things that are presented as national security issues are really about selling weapons and of course there is a big arms business there particularly the more that china can be the bogeyman in the region you can induce the local countries to feel they need to arm and they have are they have armed very substantially although not all of them buy american arms yet not for example still buys from russia and it's recently got some more air time on ok huge arms deals i generally don't know but here we go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the bike and ministrations and china stay with r.t. .

or a duck industry comes to life in los angeles every night. dozens of women sells abilities on the street many of them under-age. police reveal a taste of their daily challenge no if you're going to exploit a child here in los angeles we're going to come as you will see officers going undercover as 6 workers enter customers to fight the 6 trades. i don't think there's any perception united states that russia has to clear superiority over the united states and i think you see there's a fairly balanced relationship. in the nuclear streeter and i think you know why do you buy the ministration wants to have negotiations for what we've talked about strategic stability they want predictability they want they want to secure

situation in europe in asia and with russia and they want to be able to focus on. other issues to a certain extent of the bilateral relationship the more general. welcome across the uk were all things were considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the by good ministration and china. ok let's go back to michael in washington let's look at the really the big picture or maybe the questions that the obvious questions that are on people's mind i'm thinking michael right here you know this is just a china does not threaten the united states militarily it doesn't but china does

threaten american hegemony and the 1st 75 years the united states has gotten used of its head to monic role in the world and it's being challenged it's not a challenge militarily it's being challenged in almost every other respect and this is something that washington elites cannot stand and and you know. i would even go as far as to say is that this is not this cannot be comprehended because of american exceptionalism and that is the biggest barrier and understanding the rights of other great powers this is you know since time immemorial right powers rights and powers fall ok but no one power is the edge of money forever michael no i agree with that and i think united states still wants to it has its it has actually increased and now has shifted from the middle east attention to to the far east and they end up the subject region now because it seems that that's where the future of conflict is going to be consequently it will be using that freedom of

navigation approach and hope that. they're going to be able to gets countries in the region including india by the way not only on the resource issue but also a freedom of passage but china is is has a limited force projection at a moment in our ever however it will need to protect its interests as it expands the belt road initiative into africa end to let even latin america over the years to come and i would say that by 2050 not only will be the top economic power but the top military power in the world and i think that this is what the united states is grappling with the because it still. holds on to that exceptionalism concept and and it also has still has outstanding commitments not only to south korea but to japan and i think as as one of your guests pointed out that even though china even though korea and south korea and japan don't are not getting along these days

however they still have these commitments to each other i think the united states approach with them will be more compartment toward each country and thereby try to retain some semblance of a gemini in that region as as a last resort because as you point out. the united states really has no further compelling national security interest unless and until china those become a world military power and that's where things will become much more interesting and what it meant if i could state with you that it would depend on what it's a means and goals are i mean i mean i think we look at i mean i don't i'm a i would like someone to make the case to me that you know right now the rise of china militarily is benign for the world but what would a vent would have been more it tipped over it seems to me watching china china is not yet emerging it's reemerging it's reemerging from the western including russian

colonialism. of the 19th century and it's yeah i've been there i mean the thing is i think the west doesn't get the non-western country can be successful i think it says the simple is that james is that fair. and during the 1980 s. i was teaching courses about japan and in those days the united states that was all the rage talk about the coming war with japan and japan as the rising new superpower and of course we saw that never happened and i had i made fun of the idea in my classes at the time because i said you know japan had a major economic bubble japan did not have military aspirations to rival the united states and so forth but of course in terms of driving the budget at the pentagon it was it was something that was worth focusing on for the propaganda value and i think china has much the same role today as you said china is not a military threat to the united states today the united states of the overwhelming see in air power it's likely to remain that way for at least

a generation as 2050 it's hard to tell and it would partly depend on whether china feels they need military force but what's very clear is china's very successful in business globally and so i think it's the business rivalry that actually matters is the real substance behind the arguments about national security it's a fact that chinese telephone service and internet services are vastly cheaper than americans and therefore the global competitor and washington knows that telecom internet is the future and if it is china's winning you know influence in telecom internet around the world that's going to affect the cultural and business environment of the 21st century when and in beijing how do you how do you feel that when james has said there because that's essentially my view because i mean look at him american media elite for the last 12 months and last 18 months it went from the c.c.p. ok and then it went from president xi to the addicted to the dictator the emperor she i mean you see this change of rhetoric in the last 18 months maybe longer and

and it seems to me that in that you can't disconnected from the economic turndown. from the covert crisis here because you know the united states you know if you look at its reaction to kobe it is it's not something you need any american to be proud of right now ok i mean it's just a mess all right in china in china i understand it is on track economic activity is returned growth is returned i live in russia hear from a lot of us talk all the way to kaliningrad the reaction is exactly the same there are no governors you know squabbling over there are scoring points against this guy and this person here it's like there is a uniform medical system and it's done the same way across you know almost 12 time zones here and i think this is just what the media class and and others don't understand about china that china has its own aspirations it doesn't want to export

its ideology has no interest in that whatsoever and this is what we're told because we're you there we're told this is the cold war cold war 2.0 except words with china go ahead yeah i mean in that china has been portrayed as aggressive our you know a power hungry country that is aiming to over power and overtaking i distaste in due time. as there is any and that has there and it be i mean another country that speaks chinese mandarin as a modern language i'm missing a voice like that but it's a bilingual trilingual society and the lingua franca of the world today is english and also if you look at china's. issues with batons on taiwan they're most they you know historical issues. territories that as allies story corps and cultural ties with china that is currently china under chinese sovereignty. so media coverage is not fair trial he famously said

anti-communism has been this national level it. ology in america for 2030 years in his spoken manufacturing consent. i mean a lot of things are likely you know the entrepreneurship of the chinese society where the business aspect the meritocracy here in china if you talk about how the chinese leader us i mean they're selected we went through a grueling college placement process pretty much like those in russia we study school art math physics sighing saying either to get ahead in society and mean you know i'm i'm i'm just you know i understand within a couple of years they'll be more stem students students spending stem in china then the entire western world the reason i say already there's an it's about priorities and what kind of society you want to have good go. yeah i mean you didn't hear these things in a western society. if there were to be

a successful country unquote we control is you know south korea is often cited i mean stream media or receded or china was you know often mentioned by the negative lights in that they started this and they some ways for them for exploited this virus to damage america if you watch fox that's their narrative so many things are missing you know the rise of official media certainly gave rise to extreme abuse in america and only in a heading of new us understanding of china ever more implies that the thing is to go back to michael here is that you know basically just go straight to the point here the they they sense of relative failure or failings is a projected on someone else i mean donald trump got elected because the russians did that no it's because you had a lot of people that are disgruntled in the country ok and they wanted a change of pad the that depend demick has ripped through the fabric of

society particularly in the middle of america was more businesses the. destroyed somebody must be to blame oh it must be the chinese i mean this is this constant projection here and it's so i'm it's not constructive and it actually has potentially very negative outcomes go ahead and i think you're going to see those with the biden ministration i think that they are conflicted. and what has gone unmentioned is that both china russia iran they're ultimately on up on a straight forward path to develop a multilateral world order as opposed to the unit polar world order that has been u.s. led for years and years and years and that is this shift that we're beginning to see europe has picked up on it as i said and we're going to see the end there we're going to see china or so in that and that's what's bothering the united states as a they see their their their own influence and economic power and military power it's been challenged and quite successfully right now and the recovery is going to

take years in the united states because of the way we conduct ourselves and as a consequence china is going to emerge much more quickly as a consequence you know and james knowing that you're familiar with the visit of these trapped how is this going to play out with with china because they did they and in simple words or that is that he's trapped is there is a. of a dominant power and then there's a rising power in years 3 things you can do you can give up and let the other one go you can negotiate or you can fight what how do you see that it will within the context of the biden ministration these entities drop go ahead i've often argued this point in part because it has nothing to do with the cities the cities portrayed a civil war between contending forces in the greek world between democrats and old barracks there was a heavy class component to cities which the whole could notion of its cities traffic ok you can i get one answer off i did i don't you know in my bro government you mean here but you know what i'm not yeah but if you if you take the city's

misuse name out of it then i do. agree that there is you know variety of approaches but i think what's happening in the united states and this part hasn't been mentioned yet is the vast majority of the leading elements of american business have already adapted to the rise of china you know of adapted to the rise of china by doing a vast amount of business in china and because you need to expand there and vote with their feet as an apple for example opening a big plant in in her not in and now the latest tesla opened a manufacturing plant in shanghai. citibank is expanding its business including derivatives you know i think it's j.p. morgan recently ordered open derbez trading in china you know american business loves china american government doesn't necessarily but a large portion of america that generate heat comedy don't you know why because the government doesn't because then it it finds so much it gets off the hook by blaming

someone else gentlemen that's all the time we have you want to thank my guest in washington basking rich and in beijing and i want to thank our viewers for watching us iraqis the next time remember crossed. through that the bill really kisner those who really can show if. they can just be suitably. left without a surprise on the job against us they have some back. you know none of us to be in a bull episodes didn't go to seem to skew to the seat at the sneer doing a force where you could be near must of missed it and that's about spit i didn't do it was more sinister expedient and in no. stadia cruel to see.

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