plugger welcome to worlds apart point here is the shower so deliberate they say should have championed it to keep current approach to social change regardless of what the cultural or historic do the countries from a don't want a recipe in baseball largely on a western made in radiance was supposed to be the bast but up to series of revolutions and counter revolutions in the arab world the question still remains what is the best way forward both for the region and the world as a whole well to discuss that i'm now joined by pasha allawi a research fellow at the weatherhead center for international affairs at harvard dr allawi good to talk to you thank you very much for your time thank you i'm very pleased to be here it's great to be with you now it's been 10 years since the arab spring and since that may have had a lot of commentators making fun and hans about the seasonality all of that

movement you know that the arab spring turning into an islamist fall or a dictatorial winter and i understand that it's very easy to get disheartened by what happened since 2011 but i wonder if you see anything lastingly positive to come out there was a bad well i think we must look at these you know of these arab uprisings you know calling it the arab spring or uprisings or evolutions as a matter of debate but i think we should look. with the idea that this is a process it's a long process it's not an event for people that knew the region very well people suspected that these would not materialize in democracies very fast i think really the respect of everything else putting to the side the loss of life in civil wars and so forth i think. as

a whole the region is better off today because this is a process and this is a stepping stone forward to something that will lead eventually and hopefully to genuine pluralism so yes i would say we are better off and i know that you see the protests to 1900 and egyptian lab and not in jordan and sudan as that continuation of that process in the case of algeria it would last the resignation of the country's long serving president i wonder how do you think this exacerbated process should be measured is it all about how many all the rulers actually get out or is it about something else. i think would seem what's crucial here is to realize that. many of the citizens in most citizens in all the in this region are aware now that they have a voice they are cognizant of their power and they are. cognizant

that on the other side governments have to pay attention and governments on the other side are also very well aware that they do not have a blank and overwhelming mandate to govern as they please i think. this is the big takeaway. of these past 10 years i heard you compare the initial arab spring to one giant with stark joyful anarchy empowered by internet connectivity and i remember personally that sounds of burgeoning hope on the streets of cairo aleppo been ghazi i think it was genuine but i also think it was a form of magical thinking because most people i talk to you sort of believe that a good fair lived with emerging mediately after the bad guy was kicked out and we both know that it's not as simple as that you know flower people are out wonderful to be around but they rarely make for

a fact if managers. do you think people understood back then or do they even understand now what it takes to build your own country not to demand a change from somebody else but actually build your country from within contributing to that building process. well let's be clear for for most of the citizenry and more so the people it wasn't about building countries ok it was well and now in syria and libya it would be a rebuilding but in the context of these countries with government which is very different and yes there wasn't i wouldn't say naive today but i would say there was a lot of idealism it was thought that that you know energy in the street and the and the push forward and the breaking of the old regime was a winning formula to basically have democracy and a turnkey operation to

a thriving economy and so forth. in that sense you know isn't isn't this the case with many emerging democracies in many political breakthroughs and transition moments from authoritarian regimes out c.s. and then comes the doubt and then comes the realisation that there are a lot of hurdles and a lot of obstacles and then the reality sinks in that this is a long and hard trajectory. now. you wrote recently in one of your articles that despite these you know reality check and despite this realisation that this process takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and why it's social participation there is a new nonsectarian movement gaining strength and that region which you term as get out isn't targeting the ruling elites of all confessions and i personally think that it's much broader than the middle east i see the signs of it in europe in the

united states here in russia even if we compare the good old authoritarianism pretentious with over the only garc of democracy and this remand to appeal remand to an arche of get out as we want do you think holds the better potential the most realistic potential for achieving something you know lasting and something good for the people as a whole. and my 1st of all i use that that term get out is because i took this soundbite which was or the punch line or the slogan that was used in many of the demonstrations of the arab spring which was a shared view read it's got me love if you understand arabic it means that the people want the fall of the regime and in fact i use that to turn around and to describe it that is not only a slogan but that is also

a problem for transition to democracy because these populations before have or these protest movements before have. essentially focused their demands on the complete withdrawal of all the release and the exit of the regime from the seam and it doesn't work like that absolutely hates every for every that care because you think democracy to street action and democracy is much broader than just taking to the streets and chanting if you slogan not only that not only that but easy regimes are very well entrenched they're entrenched in the bureaucracy they're entrenched in the administration and more to the point they're entrenched in the informal sectors in the economy so they never leave and if they are placed in that situation where they have no choice but to exit and they have no incentive. to to to to to bargain and to find common grounds

while history and experience shows us sometimes negotiated settlements are the best way forward now in the way the arab revolutions are covered both in the media ad that i have to save your own writing the people i usually pre-trained as noble and daring and the government usually depicted as repressive and aggressive and i think people know that it's never that simple. ordinary people can be extremely ignorant about how difficult it is to build a functioning system even a flawed corrupt functioning system that's why i want to ask you it is authoritarian isn't always a south serving choice of the corrupt elite or could it also be a historic necessity 1st of all this is that we must not conflate all elites with corruption there is a lot of corruption there is

a lot of nepotism and this is why people rise up and but but but. not all sectors and not all. personnel and figures in the regimes are corrupt in fact well to the contrary there are many bureaucrats and many public servants that are villian that are patriotic that know what civic duties and that if anything must be associated with a new order that comes that comes up and in fact. i would contend that many of the success stories and author appearing this is one. intelligent leaders in these movements tell you no people or the corrupt elites on the other side look we will give you a fair chance and we will give you an honorable exit from the system if you let your peers which are clear and we should have no blood on their hands come in and manage this process with us so that's that so that's in

essence the story also of where the arab spring went went wrong in that it in some instances you know put in a corner of these regimes were unable to find incentives into bargaining and to find common ground to negotiate a path. forward i've always found that there's especially after covering a bit o. is for several years that there is a great difference between democracy as a matter the governance of it that certain practices and institutions that may or may not be applicable to certain historical cultural context and democritus this political faith that comes with its own set of dogmas and somebody to study it authoritarianism or most of york a democrat don't you think that democritus as an ideology also just there are some academic attention isn't it ultimately why the very genuine spark of the arab

spring was spencer the fact that really because it was wideout logical then practical. well here's the point here's the important point if if we were to good to tunisia now which is the only country that has made it into an electoral democracy it's a very flawed democracy it's. a democracy that shallow and that has a lot of problems and that it's not consolidated you have. people on the streets and in in tunisia and they would tell you that they have a problem with the term democracy because it's polluted because it's corrosive because it's been it's been it's been used by elites to subvert the process for their own advantage that is not to say that people do not want. public participation and they want participation that's the new catchword know that catchword is to be to construct

a system that is pluralistic that is inclusive and that and that works for or for everyone else that is not to say that you know that that democracy is still on the table and when they speak about democracy i speak about. not so much in the philosophical sense i speak about it in the same sense and and be procedural sense is that we have to agree on a set of rules and those set of rules me free elections they mean a free press they mean respect of human rights they mean fair alterations power and once a government once a coalition loses power it exists power and the new coalition comes to power it means no in terms of sovereignty where everything is on the agenda and it means accountability oversight of other groups in government these are the or with regard to other institutions in government we have to take a very short break now we'll come back to this very interesting discussion in just

a few minutes. time. home.

welcome back to worlds apart that the turkish are allowing research fellow at the weather has center for international affairs at harvard the july we before the break we were talking about what it takes to build a functioning democracy and i remember you saying in one of the ancient years that the arab spring was a deep that was powered by deep sands of. self determination and your need for solace they sell determination and self-determination obviously requires a lot of south knowledge which is probably one of the hardest things in life both

from an individual level and on a collective level do you think to these day kate full of hopes and disappointments people in the arab world. themselves well enough to be both sober and enthusiastic about what has to be for their friends for themselves and for their own countries. look this is this is not coming from a vacuum before the arab spring there were other historical phases which were which were which had a lot of you know which had a lot of potential people have understood in our region very well what self-determination means before it was about. nationalism there was a time where arab nationalism was the ideology that predominated or that was pervasive and prevented in the region and here it was about the collective good the collective good through the nation the nation was essentially going to build the

perfect human being and the summation of all human beings would make a perfect or an ideal society after the demise of nationalism came islamism and here it was also another story about collective good but here it was collected good based on the roma based on be. based on the community of believers and here again the community was going to make the perfect human being the arab spring comes along and says look we're not going to start with the clip with the with collective notions we're going to start with the normal individual we want we want to celebrate normality and it's by celebrating normality celebrating. centering the effort around the self around individual rights then the summation of those individuals will make us into

a better society so this debate was here for a long time and it meant different things at different moments of history and we're there here where let's not forget that the arab spring 10 years ago people came out on the street on the basis of this normality we want to be like everybody else and. that's instead has many different than what is happening in russia that have been the lead in america this left have been of course one takes into account your history one takes into account your culture your political culture one takes to a cult all sorts of anthropological and historical factors but the focus is on the individual and individual and self rights i think this issue of the reality sow determination dignity is extremely important now and not only for the east but also what they were asked of with the ever growing income inequality and i know that you

personally at had to give up a lot of your own that privileges dr lowery is a member of the american royal family you had to give up some of your entitlements to advocate for the better future of your people and i think that i mean it's my stance at least that you associate a better future for quite some time with western models if we take western models as an example of their ballots here how do you explain the fact that the income inequality in the west grows much profit for foster that in the east how is it possible what's wrong with those western models if it produces such an collaring disparity at such it. is bad deterioration of the state of the middle class. well 1st of all i'd like to say these are not about western mums there are universal i like to think of them they are the universal but i think you would agree with me that there are a number of westerners that institutions like the world back into national law on

the men or certain model and i did get a free treatise number and i mean if you do you agree with agreeing with you i agree with you that they were sometimes self-serving and used by the west in to promote their interest and they were domineering and so now we must not we must not confuse. universal values with you know with the choice or the tradeoff between capitalism and socialism or or or or economic models that invision a gritters a grid rule for the states and society 'd that is not western that is that is equally universal and so the problem the problems with with with capitalism quote unquote are problems that exist everywhere and the pressures of capitalism

are not so to speak with or they're about capitalism sic reading you know the necessary the necessary conditions for them to expand and for in this area for them to stoop to stay how can i say uncontested and challenge that's the thing western that's something proper to capitalism per say well the actual is by large is there is a western let's system and it's the west that sets the rules for a capitalist but you know last ep fair cannot make politics with that little taxation and with very odd you know preferential conditions for their reach and the corporations with poor social support i mean this type of system has wrong bill been advocated advocated and everything. after the normal as near as the shining city on the hill at this is far be happy oh for the people in the arab i mean this was quoted that people everyday people in the arab world i believe. but people in the west and i can just name one. senator sanders bernie sanders who

will tell you that no this is not the way to go. other social speakers in europe will tell you no it's not the way the gate doesn't it doesn't make proponents of those visions of of economic arrangements more western than others or less western than others it's just so happens that. in history most of the economic development and western and liberal not liberal i'm saying it in the new liberal in the sense of the economic most of the development happens you know in the west so the we must not conflate is issues now returning to our to our to our region there is people yearn for 2 things in our region there years for an economic system that will. prize and that will

you know that will. how can i say that will give that due to personal efforts and to what people deserve on their own sacrifices. that much is true but at the same time most people you know want to rule for the government and for the state in society and that means economics they want subsidies they want you know social programs they want social nets that's an important that's an important part the problem is that these lives if they're a new liberal economic pressures are such that any government that comes to power where the democratic or authoritarian has little leeway in the way of putting in place the systems that provide human security and human security is important for the flourishing of democracy when people have good health when people have

a good education when people have you know are fed and or have the are are are you know have basically housing that he human security gives empowerment it gives autonomy and helps democracy flourish now i don't know if you wouldn't reveal to me the arab spring wise and manifestation of clear crisis of the authoritarian model and that's why in response to many authoritarian governments happy become more adaptive but i also see the trompe and wave in the united states and this every wall that they deplore was as a clear sign of the crisis of the democratic capitalist role don't you think that at the end of the day people of this models will have to be reconsidered and some sort of a new approach option would have to be worked out again in being national and

cultural and social specifics of each and every individual country. first of all i see the crisis of democracy in america as not being the crisis of democracy proceed but the crisis of the republican party the republican party which is a big player and and and an avoidable player in the. political space of the united states what's happening to the republican party very briefly there probably can party has basically maintained a certain a certain electorate that is white and that is christian and that now faces an electorate that is growing growing with a verse of find that is coming from immigrant background sure becoming americans from african-american and other minorities and urban minorities and as such this

christian minority that had all the power is finding itself in a position that is windows so it's stuck and because it is like the 3 b.'s in very popular not a narrative but isn't it also read that action is in the same way that in the air during the arab spring it was all about that leaders because if you actually look at the hard day care for income inequality for the abil ability of good health care good education across all strata in the united states those transit pretty apparent the the conditions and the end of it for the middle class in the united states have been falling and one of the reasons they have been falling it's also pretty clear because of the globalists that canonic policy and because many of the jobs * squared shift overseas because of the way to taxation is structured isn't this way of politicizing the problem. you know isn't it every little bit they can't see you what people back in 2011 thought an arab spring is that yet you know it's a problem with a small minority of people but rather than the society as

a whole but man these are these are these you know you are i completely agree with you i agree with the. you on on on most of your argument and mostly saying are facts but that's not the problem the brought about the arab spring what brought about the arab spring is people seeing. the did the dictator and his family and it's more elite robbing the country blind where there where their own situation has not improved in the least that's what really minute really minute let's take a leap here libya was pretty prosperous it was one of the most prosperous countries in the in north africa for sure it wasn't that poor but clearly it was the politicization that made people believe that they were getting a short and the deal they were getting the short end of the deal that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the medicine was the right medicine but the but the dictatorships had put in place a lot of nepotism has put in place

a lot of you know very shallow capitalist models and just only served certain elites and when you thought economic growth that economic growth was not. it was not uniformly distributed fairly distributed around society that does not mean that does not mean that these what is offered today is not problematic what is offered today is very problematic because it what is offered is a. turnkey divot economic program that is going to very very hard on the normal citizen no matter how fair these political systems are and that is a problem about. the governing or the predominant visions that we have yes i am not for a neo liberal liz affair economics because i think they deprive people they hurt

people and they are very damaging to democracy i agree with you but i would not conflate the 2 that is one thing. and and and establishing a genuine truly clueless tick institutions transparent institutions that are responsive to people's wills and to the sovereignty of the people are different things now we have to leave it there. will have to come back to this conversation some of it there is always very rich thank you very much thank you and thank you for watching hope this year yeah this week and all the part.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. a dark industry comes to life in los angeles every night. dozens of women sells their bodies on the streets many of them under-age. los angeles police reveal a taste of their daily challenge no if you're going to exploit a child here in los angeles there we're going to come out to see officers going undercover as 6 workers and customers to fight 6 trade.

donald trump the 2nd impeachment trial ends with a 2nd acquittal with the u.s. senate voting to clear him of inciting the capitol hill riot. in washington has sold more than a 1000000 barrels of oil seized from iranian tankers raising questions about who actually gets the money. and the new york's governor comes under increasing pressure over massive under-reporting of american deaths during the pandemic. 70 in the house our sunday review of the top news of the last 7 days that's coming up next hour right now though it is going underground on our team international while if you are in great britain you'll be treated to an episode as we've been doing.