the region is better off today because this is a process and this is a stepping stone forward to something that will lead eventually and hopefully to genuine pluralism so yes i would say we are better off and i know that you see the protests 1900 and egyptian lab and not in jordan and sudan as that continuation of that process in the case of algeria if it lasts the resignation of the country's long serving president i wonder how do you think this at safford that process should be measured is it all about how many all the rulers actually get out or is it about something. i think would seem what's crucial here is to realize that. many of the citizens in most citizens in all the in this region are aware now that they have a voice they are cognizant of their power and they are. cognizant

that on the other side governments have to pay attention and governments on the other side are also very well aware that they do not have a blank and overwhelming mandate to govern as they please i think. this is the big takeaway. of these past 10 years i've heard you compared the initial arab spring to one giant with stock joyful anarchy empowered by internet connectivity and i remember personally that sounds of burgeoning hole on the streets of cairo aleppo been ghazi i think it was genuine but i also think it was a form of magical thinking because most people i talk to you sort of believe that a good fair lived with emerging mediately after the bad guy was kicked out and we both know that it's not as simple as that you know flower people are out wonderful to be around but they rarely make for

a fact if managers. do you think people understood back then or do they even understand now what it takes to build your own country not to demand a change from somebody else but actually build your country from within contributing to that building process. well let's be clear for for most of the citizenry and more so the people it wasn't about building countries ok it was well and now in syria and libya it would be a rebuilding but in the context then and in the context today to many of these countries it's reimagining how these countries with the government which is very different and yes there wasn't i wouldn't say naive today but i would say there was a lot of idealism it was thought that that you know energy in the street and the and the push forward and the breaking of the old regime was

a winning formula to basically have democracy and a turnkey operation into a thriving economy and so forth. in that sense you know isn't isn't this the case with many emerging democracies in many political breakthroughs and transition moments from authoritarian regimes out c.s. and then comes the doubt and then comes the realisation that there are a lot of hurdles and a lot of obstacles and then the reality sinks in that this is a long and hard trajectory. now. you wrote recently in one of your articles that despite these you know reality check and despite this realisation that this process takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and wide social participation there is a new nonsectarian movement gaining strength and that region which you trim as get out isn't targeting the ruling elites of all confessions and i personally think

that it's much broader than the middle east i see the signs of it in europe in the united states here in russia even if we compare the good old authoritarianism pretentious but often only gardley democracy and this remand think appeal remand to an iraqi of get out is which one do you think holds the better potential the most realistic potential for achieving something you know lasting and something good for the people as a whole. my 1st of all i use that that term get out is because i took this soundbite which was or the punch line or the slogan that was used in many of the demonstrations of the arab spring which was a shared view read it's got me love if you understand arabic it means that the people want the fall of the regime and in fact i use that to turn around and to

describe it that is not only a slogan but that is also a problem for transition to democracy because these populations before have or these protest movements before have. essentially focused their demands on the complete withdrawal of all the release and the exit of the regime from the seam and it doesn't work like that absolutely it's every 400 that care because you think democracy to street action and democracy is much broader than just taking to the streets and chanting a few slogan not only that not only that but these regimes are very well entrenched they're entrenched in the bureaucracy they're entrenched in the administration and more to the point they're entrenched in the informal sectors in the economy so they never leave and if there are placed in that situation where they have no choice but to exit and they have no incentive. to to to to to bargain and to find common

grounds while history and experience shows us sometimes negotiated settlements are the best way forward now in the way the arab revolutions are covered both in the media ad that i have to save your own writing the people are usually pretty straight as noble and daring and the government usually depicted as repressive and aggressive and i think people know that it's never that simple. ordinary people can be extremely ignorant about how difficult it is to build a functioning system even a flawed corrupt functioning system that's why i want to ask you it is authoritarian isn't always a south serving choice of the corrupt elite or could it also be a historic necessity 1st of all this is we must not conflate

all elites with corruption there is a lot of corruption there is a lot of nepotism and this is why people rise up and but but but. not all sectors and not all. personnel and figures in the regimes are corrupt in fact well to the contrary there are many bureaucrats and many public servants that are villian that are patriotic that know what civic duties and that if anything must be associated with the new order that comes that comes up and in fact. i would contend that many of the success stories and author of terror news is one. intelligent leaders in these movements tell you know people or the corrupt elites on the other side look we will give you a fair chance and we will give you an honorable exit from the system if you let your peers which are clear and we should have no blood on their hands come in and

manage this process with us so that's that so that's in essence the story also of where the arab 'd spring went went wrong in that it in some instances you know put in a corner these regimes were unable to find incentives into bargaining and to find common ground to negotiate a path. forward i've always found that there is especially after covering it a bit o. is for several years that there is a great difference between democracy as a matter the governance of it that certain practices and institutions that may or may not be applicable to certain historical cultural contexts and democritus this political faith that comes with its own set of dogmas and as somebody who studied it authoritarianism or most of york demick korea don't you think that democritus as an ideology also just sever some academic attention isn't it ultimately why the

very genuine spark of the arab spring was spencer the fact that really because it was wideout logical then practical. well here's the point here's the important point if if we were to good to tunisia now which is the only country that has made it into an electoral democracy it's a very flawed democracy it's. a democracy that shallow and that has a lot of problems and that it's not consolidated you have that. people on the streets and in in tunisia and they would tell you that they have a problem with the term. because it's polluted because it's corrosive because it's been it's been it's been used by elites to subvert the process for their own advantage that is not to say that people do not want. public participation and they want participation that's the new catchword now catchword is to be to construct

a system that is pluralistic that is inclusive and that and that works for or for everyone else that is not to say that you know that that democracy is still on the table and when i speak about democracy i speak about. not so much in the philosophical sense i speak about it in the same sense it and be procedural sense is that we have to agree on a set of rules and those set of rules me free elections in a free press then in respect of human rights they mean say or alterations power and once a government once a coalition loses power it exists power and the new coalition comes to power it means no in terms of sovereignty where everything is on the agenda and it means accountability oversight of other groups in government these are the or with

regards to other institutions in government we have to take a very short break now we'll come back to this very interesting discussion in just a few minutes. in the 1920 s. and fifty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of their descendants still. live in russia. going at the risk of a no no rush for us though up most of us simply always took on things on your way. back home black american suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. is that columbus month real live below 0 shows one by elsa store on her by doing. so they decided to leave everything behind and

start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the american reared who were through the union you know if you heard around the crowd. moulay a dwarf you you're going to call. me and now almost a 100 years later the history is repeating itself my great grandfather george time went to russia. on probable worst time to go anywhere why not me. why don't i come here. imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century what are the chapters called gun violence school shootings. first it was my job then it was my field bill it was my savings i have nothing i have nothing it has now i

don't authorize alou for resources i look for jobs i look for everything i can to make this house. in oil i'm doing it's. the road to the american dream paved with good refugees it's this very idealized image of. americans look hostile the deaths that happen every single day this is a modern history of the usa america on r t. r's. welcome back to worlds apart that doesn't actually sound cloud mean research fellow at the weather has center for international affairs at harvard the july we before the break we were talking about what it takes to build a functioning democracy and i remember you saying in one of the ancient years that

the arab spring was a deep that was powered by a deep sense of. self-determination and your need for south of the terminations and self-determination obviously requires a lot of south knowledge which is probably one of the hardest things in life both from an individual level and on a collective level do you think to this day kate full of hopes and disappointments people in the arab world this themselves well enough to be both sober and enthusiastic about what has to be done for their friends for themselves and for their own countries. look this is this is not coming from a vacuum before the arab spring there were other historical phases which were which were which had a lot of you know which had a lot of potential people have understood in our region very well what self-determination means before it was about. nationalism there was

a time where arab nationalism was the ideology that predominated or that was pervasive in privilege in the region and here it was about the collective good the collective good through the nation the nation was essentially going to build the perfect human being and the summation of all human beings would make a perfect or an ideal society after the demise of nationalism came islamism and here it was also another story about collective good but here it was collected good based on the roma based on be. based on the community of believers and here again the community was going to make the perfect human being the arab spring comes along and says look we're not going to start with the clip with the with collective notions we're going to start with the normal individual we want we want

to celebrate normality and it's by celebrating normality celebrating. centering the effort around the self around individual rights then the summation of those individuals will make us into a better society so this debate was here for a long time and it meant different things at different moments of history and we're there here where let's not forget that the arab spring 10 years ago people came out on the street on the basis of this normality we want to be like everybody else and in. that's instead has many different than what is happening in russia that have been the lead in america this left have been of course one takes into account your history one takes into account your culture your political culture one takes to a cult all sorts of anthropological and historical factors but the focus is on the

individual and individual and self rights i think this issue of the reality sow determination dignity is extremely important now and not only for the east but also what they were asked the whip the ever growing income inequality and i know that you personally at had to give up a lot of your own that privileges dr lowery is a member of the american royal family you had to give up some of your entitlements to advocate for the better future of your people and i think that i mean it's my stance at least that you associate a better future for quite some time with western models if we take western models as an example of their reality how do you explain the fact that the income inequality in the west grows much fraught further faster than in the east how is it possible what's wrong with those western models if it produces such an collaring disparity at such it. is bad deterioration of the state of the middle class. well

1st of all i'd like to say these are not about western munns there are universal i'd like to think i mean there are indeed universal but i think you would agree with me that there are a number of westerners that institutions like world back into national. or certain model and i've repeated for it preterists never ending i mean if you do you agree with agreeing with you i agree with you that they were sometimes self-serving and used by the west in to promote their interest and they were domineering and so now we must not we must not confuse. universal values with you know with the choice or the tradeoff between capitalism and socialism or or or or economic models that invision a gritters a grid rule for the states and society that is not western that is that is equally

universal and so the problem the problems with with with capitalism courts and quote are problems that exist everywhere and the pressures of capitalism are not so to speak with or they're about capitalism sic reading you know the necessary the necessary conditions for them to expand and for in this area for them to stoop to stay how can i say uncontested and challenge that's the thing western that's something proper to capitalism per se well that that actually is by and large is there is a western let's system and it's the west that sets the rules for a capitalist you know last ep fair cannot make politics miss that little taxation and with very odd you know preferential conditions for their reach and the corporations with poor social support i mean this type of system has wrong bill been advocated advocated and everything. at the normal as near as the shining city

on you at this is far be happy oh for the people in the arab i mean this was quite a bit people at for the people and the arab world i believe. but people in the west and i can just name one. senator sanders bernie sanders who will tell you that no this is not the way to go. other social speakers in europe will tell you no it's not the way the gate doesn't it doesn't make proponents of those visions of of economic arrangements more western than others or less western than others it's just so happens that. in history most of the economic development and western and liberal not liberal i'm saying it in the new liberal in the sense of the economic most of the development happens you know in the west so the we must not conflate is issues now returning to our to our to our region

there is people yearn for 2 things in our region there year 4 and it cannot mix system that will prize and that will you know that will. how can i say that will give that due to personal efforts and to what people deserve on their own sacrifices. that much is true but at the same time most people you know want to rule for the government and for the state in society and that means economics they want subsidies they want you know social programs they want social nets that's an important that's an important part the problem is that these lives if they're a new liberal economic pressures are such that any government that comes to power

where the democratic or authoritarian has little leeway in the way of putting in place the systems that provide human security and human security is important for the flourishing of the mockers when people have good health when people have a good education when people have you know are fed and or have the are are you know have basically housing that he human security gives empowerment it gives autonomy and helps democracy flourish now i don't know if you wouldn't reveal to me the arab spring wise and manifestation of their career crisis of the authoritarian model and that's why in response to many authoritarian governments happy become more adaptive but i also see the trompe and wave in the united states and this is every wall that they deplore was as

a clear sign of the crisis of the democratic capitalist role don't you think that at the end of the day people of this models will have to be reconsidered on some sort of a new approach option and will have to work out i gather grow that in being national and cultural and social specifics of each and every individual country. first of all i see the crisis of democracy in america as not being the crisis of democracy proceed but the crisis of the republican party the republican party which is a big player and and and an avoidable player in the. political space of the united states what's happening to the republican party very briefly there probably can party has basically maintained a certain a certain electorate that is white and that is christian and that now faces an

electorate that is growing a growing the diversity find that is coming from immigrant background as you're becoming americans from african-american and other minorities and urban minorities and as such should this christian minority that had all the power is finding itself in a position that is windows so it's stuck and because it is like the 3 b.'s in very popular not a narrative but isn't it also read that action is in the same way that in the air during the arab spring it was all about that leaders because if you actually look at the hard day care for income inequality for the at the lability office good health care good education across all strata in the united states those transit pretty apparent the big conditions and the end of it for the middle class in the united states have been falling and one of the reasons they have been falling it's also pretty clear because of the globalists that cannot make policy and because many of the jobs squared shift overseas because of the way to taxation is

structured isn't this way of politicizing the problem. you know isn't it every little bit they can see you what people back in 2011 thought an arab spring is that yet you know it's a problem with a small minority of people but rather than the society as a whole but ma'am these are these these are you know you are i completely agree with you i agree with the. you on on on most of your argument and mostly saying are facts but that's not the problem the brought about the arab spring what brought about the arab spring is people seeing. the did the dictator and his family and it's more elite robbing the country blind where there where their own situation has not improved in the least that's what really minute really minute let's take a leap here libya was pretty prosperous it was one of the most prosperous countries in the in north africa for sure it wasn't that poor but clearly it was the

politicization that made people believe that they were getting a short and the deal they were getting the short end of the deal that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the medicine was the right medicine but the but the dictatorships had put in place a lot of nepotism has put in place a lot of you know very shallow capitalist models and just only served certain elites and when you saw economic growth that economic growth was not. it was not uniformly distributed fairly distributed around society that does not mean that does not mean that these what is offered today is not problematic what is offered today is very problematic because it what is offered is a. turnkey divot economic program that is going to very very hard on the normal citizens no matter how fair these political systems are and that

is a problem about. the governing or the predominant visions that we have yes i am not for a neo liberal liz affair economics because i think they deprive people they hurt people and they are very damaging to democracy i agree with you but i would not conflate the 2 that is one thing. and and and establishing a genuine truly clueless to institution is transparent institutions that are responsive to people's wills and to the sovereignty of the people are 2 different things now we have to leave it there. we'll have to come back to this conversation some of it there is always very rich thank you very much thank you and thank you for watching i hope this year again next week on all the part.

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