still remains what is the best way forward both to the region and the world as a whole well to discuss that i'm now joined by the shallow laue research fellow at the weather had center for international affairs at harvard dr always good to talk to you thank you very much for your time thank you i'm very pleased to be here it's great to be with you now it's been 10 years since the arab spring and since that maybe had a lot of commentators making fun and qualms about the seasonality all of that movement you know at the arab spring turning into an islamist fall or are a dictatorial winter and i understand that it's very easy to get disheartened by what happened since 2011 but i wonder if you see anything lastingly positive to come out there was a bad well i think we must look at these you know of these arab uprisings you know calling it the arab spring or uprisings or evolution is

a matter of debate but i think we should look upon them with the idea that this is a process it's a long process it's not an event for people that knew the region very well people suspected that these would not materialize in democracies very fast i think really the respect of everything else putting to the side the loss of life in civil wars and so forth i think as a whole the region is better off today because this is a process and this is a stepping stone forward to something that will lead eventually and hopefully to genuine pluralism so yes i would say we are better off and i know that you see the protests that of 2090 and egyptian lab and not in jordan and sudan as that continuation of that process in the case of older air if it lasts the resignation of the country's long serving president i wonder. how do you think this exacerbated

process should be measured is it all about how many old rulers actually get out or is it about something else. i think would seem what's crucial here is to realize that. many of the citizens in most citizens in all the in this region are aware now that they have a voice they are cognizant of their power and they are. cognizant that on the other side governments have to pay attention and governments on the other side are also very well aware that they do not have a blank and overwhelming mandate to govern as they please i think this is the big takeaway. of these past 10 years i heard you compare the initial arab spring to one giant with stock joyful anarky empowered by internet connectivity and i remember personally that sounds of burgeoning hope on the

streets of cairo are allowed to open ghazi i think it was genuine but i also think it was a form of magical thinking because most people i talk to you sort of believe that a good fair lived with emerging mediately after the bad guy was kicked out and we both know that it's not as simple as that you know flower people are out wonderful to be around but they rarely make for a fact if managers. do you think people understood back then or do they even understand now what it takes to build your own country not to demand a change from somebody else but actually build your country from within contributing to that building process. well let's be clear for for most of the citizenry and more so the people it wasn't about building countries ok it was well and now in syria and libya it would be a rebuilding but in the context then and in the context today to many of these

countries it's reimagining how these countries with the government which is very different and yes there wasn't i wouldn't say naive today but i would say there was a lot of idealism it was thought that that you know energy in the street and the and the push forward and the breaking of the old regime was a winning formula to basically have democracy and a turnkey operation into a thriving economy and so forth. in that sense you know isn't isn't this the case with many emerging democracies and many political breakthroughs and transition moments from authoritarian regimes out c.s. and then comes the doubt and then comes the realisation that there are a lot of hurdles and a lot of obstacles and then the reality sinks in that this is

a long and hard trajectory. now. you wrote recently in one of your articles that despite these you know reality check and despite this realisation that this process takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and wide social participation there is a new nonsectarian movement gaining strength and that region which you trim as get out isn't targeting the ruling elites of all confessions and i personally think that it's much broader than the middle east i see the signs of it in europe in the united states here in russia even if we compare the good old authoritarianism pretentious with over the only garc of democracy and this remand think appeal remand to an arche of get out is which one do you think holds the better potential the most realistic potential for achieving something you know lasting and something good for the people as

a whole. and my 1st of all i use that that term get out is because i took this soundbite which was or the punch line or the slogan that was used in many of the demonstrations of the arab spring which was a shared view read is cut me if you understand arabic it means that the people want the fall of the regime and in fact i use that to turn around and to describe it that is not only a slogan but that is also a problem for transition to democracy because these populations before have or these protest movements before have. essentially focused their demands on the complete withdrawal of all the release and the exit of the regime from the seam and it doesn't work like that absolutely it's a very far read that because you think democracy to street action and democracy is

much broader than just taking to the streets and chanting if you slogan not only that not only that but the ease regimes are very well entrenched there entrenched in the bureaucracy there entrenched in the administration and more to the point they're entrenched in the informal sectors in the economy so they never leave and if they are placed in that situation where they have no choice but to exit and they have no incentive. to to to to to bargain and to find common grounds while history and experience shows us sometimes negotiated settlements are the best way forward now in the way the arab revolutions are covered both in the media ad that i have to save your own writing the people are usually pretty straight as noble and daring and the government usually depicted as repressive and aggressive and i think people know that it's never that simple. ordinary people can be

extremely ignorant about how difficult it is to build a functioning system even a flawed corrupt functioning system that's why i want to ask you it is authoritarian isn't always a south serving choice of the corrupt elite or could it also be a historic necessity 1st of all this is that we must not conflate all elites with corruption there is a lot of corruption there is a lot of nepotism and this is why people rise up and but but but. not all sectors and not all. personnel and figures in the regimes are corrupt in fact well to the contrary there are many bureaucrats and many public servants that are villein that are patriotic that know what civic duties and that if anything must be associated with a new order that comes that comes up and in fact. i would contend

that many of the success stories an author appearing as is one. intelligent leaders in these movements tell you know people or the corrupt elites on the other side look we will give you a fair chance and we will give you an honorable exit from the system if you let your peers which are clear and we should have no blood on their hands come in and manage this process with us so that's that so that's in essence the story also of where the arab spring went went wrong in that it in some instances you know put in a corner of these regimes who are unable to find incentives into bargaining and to find common ground to negotiate a path. forward i've always found that there is especially after covering a bit o.

it for several years that there is a great difference between democracy as a matter the governance of it that certain practices and institutions that may or may not be applicable to certain historical cultural contexts and democritus this political faith that comes with its own set of dogmas and somebody to study it authoritarianism or most of york a democrat don't you think that democritus as an ideology also just never stop a democrat tension isn't it ultimately why the very genuine spark of the arab spring was spencer and the fact that me because it was wideout logical then practical. well here's the point here's the important point if if we were to good to tunisia now which is the only country that has made it into an electoral democracy it's a very flawed democracy it's. a democracy that shallow and that has a lot of problems and that it's not consolidated you have that. people on the

streets and in in tunisia and they would tell you that they have a problem with the term. because it's polluted because it's corrosive because it's been it's been it's been used by elites to subvert the process for their own advantage that is not to say that people do not want. public participation and they want participation that's the new catchword now catchword is to be to construct a system that is pluralistic that is inclusive and that and that works for or for everyone else that is not to say that you know that democracy is still on the table and when i speak about democracy i speak about. not so much in the philosophical sense i speak about it in the same sense it and be procedural sense is that we have to agree on a set of rules and those set of rules me free elections they mean

a free press they mean respect of human rights they mean. fair alterations power and once a government once a coalition loses power it exists power and the new coalition comes to power it means no enclaves of sovereignty where everything is on the agenda and it means accountability oversight of other groups in government these are the or with regard to other institutions in government we have to take a very short break now we'll come back to this very interesting discussion in just a few minutes. this is a speculative attack that iran must is making on the fan right so he's already going to work this out p.s.e.c. is already going to work as you say he's shown them to be venal and captured now

he's gone to war with. and sound like a buy back my own stock i'm going to take your cheap money i'm going to buy a place like michael sailors and now clive 100 other c.e.o.'s in the s. and p. 500 a like you know what that's a darn good idea. knowing through the woods that they have to do. good work. and i don't buy that in a can matter a canard while nice and a bad national. cannot deny. meals on mon not just us but still some miles on belonging to my little cousin will lend an eye on my public affairs. and show him the national association.

must know how to set the computer. but i bet all small and the so what is. unique cannot give us the link because of the sound of you in the nose you know how to make you know the feel of a good. solid and know it and when i might. be my name a few of them. are . welcome actual department culture shock allowing research at whether it has such a mortgage national affairs at harvard that's all we before the break we were talking about what it takes to build a functioning democracy and i remember you saying it one of the it should be is that the arab spring was. was powered by

a deep sense of self determination and your need for solace this subject terminations and self-determination obviously requires a lot of south knowledge which is probably one of the hardest things in life both on an individual level and on a collective level do you think after this day kate full of hopes and disappointments people in the arab world to stand themselves well enough to be both sober and enthusiastic about what has to be done for the for for themselves and for their own countries. look this is this is not coming from a vacuum before the arab spring there were other historical phases which were which were which had a lot of you know which had a lot of potential people have understood in our region very well what self-determination means before it was about. nationalism there was

a time where arab nationalism was the ideology that predominated or that was pervasive and prevented in the region and here it was about their collective good the collective good through the nation the nation was essentially going to build the perfect human being and the summation of all human beings would make a perfect or an ideal society after the demise of nationalism came islamism and here it was also another story about collective good but here it was collected good based on the roma based on be. based on the community of believers and here again the community was going to make the perfect human being the arab spring comes along and says look we're not going to start with the clip with the with collective notions we're going to start with the normal individual we want we want to celebrate normality and it's by celebrating normality celebrating.

centering the effort around the self around individual rights then the summation of those individuals will make us into a better society so this debate was here for a long time and it meant different things at different moments of history and we're there here where let's not forget that the arab spring 10 years ago people came out on the street on the basis of this normality we want to be like everybody else and. that's instead has many different than what is happening in russia that have been the lead america this lead have been of course one takes into account your history one takes into account your culture your political culture one takes a gulp all sorts of anthropological and historical factors but the focus is on the individual and individual and self rights i think this issue of the reality sow

determination dignity is extremely important now and not only for the east but also what they were asked of with the ever growing income inequality and i know that you personally at had to give up a lot of your own that privileges dr lowery is a member of the american royal family you had to give up some of your entitlements to advocate for the better future of your people and i think that i mean it's my stance at least that you associate a better future for quite some time with western models if we take western models as an example of their reality how do you explain the fact that the income inequality in the west grows much fraught for faster than in the east how is it possible what's wrong with those western models if it produces such an collaring disparity at such it. is bad deterioration of the state of the middle class. well 1st of all i'd like to say these are not about western mums there are

universal i like to think of them they are indeed universal but i think you would agree with me that there are a number of westerners that institutions like world baggage a national. or certain model and i do cater for it preterist stubbornly i mean if you do you agree with agreeing with you i agree with you that they were sometimes self-serving and used by the west in to promote their interest and they were domineering and so now we must not we must not confuse. universal values with you know with the choice or the tradeoff between capitalism and socialism or or or or economic models that invision a grid or a grid rule for the states and society that is not western that is that is equally

universal and so the problem the problems with with with capitalism quote unquote are problems that exist everywhere and the pressures of capitalism are not so to speak with or they're about capitalism sic reading you know the necessary the necessary conditions for them to expand and for in this area for them to stoop to stay how can i say uncontested and challenge that's the thing western that's something proper to capitalism per say well the actual is by large is there is a western left system and it's the west that sets the rules for a capitalist you know last ep fair konami politics bit that little taxation of with very odd you know preferential conditions for the reach of the corporations with poor social support i mean this type of system has wrong bill been advocated advocated and everything. after the normal as near as the shining city on you at

this is far be happy oh for the people in the arab i mean this was quite a bit people everyday people in the arab world i believe. but people in the west and i can just name one. senator sanders bernie sanders who will tell you that no this is not the way to go. other social speakers in europe will tell you no it's not the way the gay doesn't it doesn't make proponents of those visions of of economic arrangements more western than others or less western than others it's just so happens that. in history most of the economic development and western and liberal not liberal i'm saying it in the new liberal in the sense of the economic most of the development happens you know in the west so that we must not conflate his issues now returning to our to our to our region

there is people yearn for 2 things in a region there years for and it cannot mix system that will. prize and that will you know that will. how can i say that will give that due to personal efforts and to what people deserve on their own sacrifices. that much is true but at the same time most people you know want to rule for the government and for the state in society and that means economics they want subsidies they want you know social programs they want social nets that's an important that's an important part the problem is that these lives if they're a new liberal economic pressures are such that any government that comes to power where the democratic or authoritarian has little leeway in the way of putting

in place the systems that provide human security and human security is important for the flourishing of the mockers when people have good health when people have a good education when people have you know are fed and or have the are are are you know have basically housing that he human security gives empowerment it gives autonomy and helps democracy flourish now i don't know if you wouldn't reveal to me the arab spring wise and manifestation of their career crisis of the authoritarian model and that's why the response to many authoritarian governments happy become more adaptive but i also see the trompe and wave in the united states and this is every wall that they deplore was as a clear sign of the crisis of the democratic capitalist role

don't you think that at the end of the day people of this models will have to be reconsidered on some sort of a new approach that 3rd option would have to be worked out again in being national and cultural and social specifics of each and every individual country. first of all i see the crisis of democracy in america as not being the crisis of the moccasin proceed but the crisis of the republican party the republican party which is a big player and and and an avoidable player in the. political space of the united states what's happening to the republican party very briefly there probably can party has basically maintained a certain a certain electorate that is white and that is christian and that now faces an electorate that is growing growing the diversified that is coming from immigrant

background as you're becoming americans from african-american and other minorities and urban minorities and as such should this christian minority that had all the power is finding itself in a position that is when the suit is stuck and because it is like to hurry because in very few were not a narrative but isn't it also read that action is in the same way that in the air during the arab spring it was all about that leaders because if you actually look at the hard day there for income inequality for the at the lability office good health care good education across all strata in the united states those transit pretty apparent the the conditions in the end it for the middle class in the united states have been falling and one of the reasons they have been falling is also pretty clear because of the globalists that canonic policy and because many of the jobs * squared shift overseas because of the way to taxation is structured isn't this way of politicizing the problem. you know isn't it every little bit they can

see you what people back in 2011 thought an arab spring is that yet you know it's a problem with a small minority of people but rather than the society as a whole but man these are these are these you know you are i completely agree with you i agree with the. you on on on most of your argument and mostly saying are facts but that's not the problem the brought about the arab spring what brought about the arab spring is people seeing. the did the dictator and his family and it's more elite robbing the country blind where there where their own situation has not improved in the least that's what really minute really minute let's take a leap here libya was pretty prosperous it was one of the most prosperous countries in the in north africa for sure it wasn't that poor but clearly it was the politicization that made people believe that they were getting

a short out of the deal they were getting the short end of the deal that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the medicine was the right medicine but the but the dictatorships had put in place a lot of nepotism has put in place a lot of you know very shallow capitalist models of just only served certain elites and when you thought economic growth that economic growth was not. was not uniformly distributed fairly distributed around society that does not mean that does not mean that these what is offered today is not problematic what is offered today is very problematic because it what is offered is a. turnkey divot economic program that is going to very very hard on the normal citizen no matter how fair these political systems are and that is a problem about. the governing or the predominant visions that we

have yes i am not for neo liberal lives if they are economics because i think they deprive people they hurt people and they are very damaging to democracy i agree with you but i would not conflate the 2 that is one thing. and and establishing a genuine truly clueless to constituents transparent institutions that are responsive to people's wills and to the sovereignty of the people are 2 different things and no doubt we have to leave it there after making public will have to come back to this conversation some of it there is very rich thank you very much thank you and thank you for watching i hope this year again next week and all the parts. are. back.

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