returned to the periods even perhaps in some areas worse than it was in the early days of a bafta. 3 saw the devastation now libya's institutions will be as impressed park. through its social institutions we saw violence we still got eyes of rick's 3 ms and keep in mind that the oil generated a good deal of wealth you have wall street firms like goldman sachs which were involved in business deals with the khadafi regime but with the ouster of the gadhafi regime they felt that they would be in their position to benefit then you had the inexperience of the team in washington and inexperienced president surrounded by inexperienced aides like secretary of state hillary rodham clinton who was trying to show him demonstrate her imperialist mettle by shedding blood in africa then of course you have france france as you know bases its power as

an imperialist force on its role in africa for instance which were conflicting with libya's interest and libya had to go that is to say khadafi had to go keep in mind as well that the then president mr kohut sarkozy was accused credibly of taking money under the table from tripoli and he had an interest also in seeing that mr gadhafi would be ousted a lot is our lot for knife from the newsroom on me here in the studio but some great programs are set to kick off in moments find out what's showing where you are after the shortest impact.

hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered on peter lavelle russia e.u. relations got a reality check last week russia's foreign minister said again love it off read the riot act to the blog also washington never ceases to lecture the world about democracy and the rule of law how are both doing in the us. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london is a historian and analyst and author of the new book a rise to mature and of russia to world politics and in budapest we have george

samueli he's a podcast or at the gavel which can be found on you tube rumble ari channeling rostock rose in effect that music can jump any time you want and i was appreciative ok it's going to budapest 1st george we saw something quite remarkable at the end of last week we had the high commissioner of from the european union with the foreign policy portfolio basically got his blank handed to him here in moscow the tone of this relationship despite my lot of relationship has changed remarkably what accounts for it george well i think the russians have a really. we got fed up with the attitudes of both the european union and the united states where by they think that they can get some kind of agreements and deals with the russians a whole host of things that they want agreements with. the russians have sort of said look if you want to work with us on issues of energy on issues of

vaccine issues of migration drugs and so on we have to to work with you but if you want to play these games and constantly use us as a football and say well you know you're interfering our elections you will be hind a coup in montenegro. you know you were poisoning people in our streets using chemical weapons on our street you know and then what about on the felony if you want to play that game then we're not interested you know we we we've got our own agreements with our own relationships with other countries we'll get to do it so he pretty much said to doral and through him to europe what do you want you what do you want to working relationship or do you want confrontation we're ready for either i think that this came as a shock because at the europeans are just not used to this kind of talk in russia and i think there is now a new tone coming from moscow you know mark is this something that we've all

noticed over the last few years i think it's been only since the overthrow of the legal government in general been to in the spring of 2014 this really of overt hostility and we have to point out the bike and ministration is the 1st incoming american administration that has not talked about a reset since the end of the cold war so very hostile very hardline it's unclear how that's going to be translated new policy but when breaux it was in one month in moscow and russia's ter being lectured lecturing his hosts seem to have drawn the line with the russians and it's the end of quote unquote strategic patience i don't really like that phrase because it's very cliche but it may be appropriate in this case go ahead. oh a surrogate laughter off's exceptionally stunt woman in city year in union has evidently sense shock waves for out brussels because the european union's leaders

understand a laugh rose on in effect the words of latham a person after all 2nd left off is not responsible for russian foreign policy making lies we've made coats and now it is not in the interests for the vast majority of e.u. member states for there to be afraid of it's very a shift in relations between the e.u. and of us a federation i say the vast majority of e.u. member states would not want a further deterioration. and there are some the both $68.00 and poland and those are merely conduit for western aggression against russia but essence to files and 14th western companies for example construction companies and agricultural companies have been severely could say what's in their ability to export to russia and they have suffered extensively as

a result of that now if the european union does impose additional sanctions on russia then russia inevitably will take a very direct response who is going to suffer more its will be those companies within the european union for example agricultural companies in spain italy and greece who are no longer able to export their proxies to russia so then we have to ask the question. who really benefits from it it's a further deterioration a further worsening of relations strained brussels and most very clearly not the european union with the exception of the o.t. states opponents are a subject pizza that it is america and drizzle. who benefits because the americans and the british do not want an improvement in relations between the e.u. and russia you know in georgia marcus is absolutely right that's why these

representatives in brussels they talk the language of values because values has almost nothing to do with policy and if you are something about policy and you going to have to start making choices brussels doesn't really want to make any choices right now and i think that there is an echo coming from washington and in london and of course you know when you can stand to national interests i would say that this hurts the national in the block interest for the e.u. but russia has gotten used to this is a funny i mean if you don't if you don't want to dance we don't have to dance if you don't want to have a dialogue we don't have to have a dialogue but if you don't want to have a dialogue stop talking to me then. that exactly sums it up perfectly. because the point about the values is that it's always one way traffic so when the europeans talk about values it means our right to interfere in russia's

internal affairs our right to lecture russia on their shortcomings 1 and when the russians don around and tell us well we're not really very happy about the way you've been treating julian the sunset all around 2 you know what about all of the people who are protesting against the code restrictions and who get beaten over the head with truncheons all how about the people in those spain organizing the referendum in catalonia being sentenced to prison for 10 years when the russians turn around and say well we're not happy about that then there's just shock and indignation so this business of values is itself a hypocrisy because in fact the russians have said if you want to discuss human rights issues the. it has to be you know 2 way traffic you know you know you can lecture us about our shortcomings we know lecture you about your shortcomings but it'll if that news is there is

a silly idea foreign policy because foreign policy is supposed to be about securing the interests for your own people and of course the interests of the peoples of europe as marcus as pointed out is in trade and economic agreements and they're the russians have been very reliable in this and it is the europeans who have been very unreliable something that was pointed out by love crow in constant is only sign an agreement and then they stop talking about sanctions as onus of the russians or say well we kind of fed up with this don't you know with which do you want if you want a confrontation we're ready for a confrontation you know we're actually in pretty good shape now militarily strategically now we with the new the split back scene with shah ahead of everyone else well but i think it right for comfort if you want to work with us on a whole range of issues we're ready for that but we're not going to have this kind of batting to and fro that the europeans and the americans want that that's just

not going to happen anymore. from this side of the. discussion here is that you know this but by concert we are rating russia bring in her being in the domestic politics of european countries and a united states and the same time the same admissions are talking milling russia out run in support system and how to apply to law individuals i'm speaking of mr no bomb me so so if for example lodbrok would say yes you know we will read the volley but then that would be breaking russian law so this is what they want they want russia to respect the rule of law but by then when you do that you must break the law because we like this one individual and by the way about when your own business market's been carried. yes we hear european politicians and journalists together of a council of america and britain saying about the russian authorities have

sentenced alexina valmy to a custodial sentence know who are russian couso of the law as found alexina found 8 duty and has given him a custodial sentence but the problem in all of this is that alexina valley is neither here nor that certainly he has no standing in russia when it comes to western powers the new america and britain they understand in private that he has no stand in amongst the russian people however he is a useful tool to use against russia in maintaining that this argument's this theory of. arguments that russia stance against freedom and the rule of law and democracy and when it comes to be rippin union i am very confident pizza that if you sat down with the vast majority of key german and

french from the make it an aston do you really want a worsening in relations between the european union and russia on account on accounts of never i don't believe they would say yes i believe that it is de americans because america of course is the outside dominant force in the european union the e.u. is a strategic partner for america the e.u. coordinates its fall policy and defense policy making with the americans alexina valley is a tool that the americans are using against the russians and i believe the americans i hope to scotch no strings or the germans have kept so they counsel i will not allow that to happen so that is a good indication that the e.u. will try. draw each of the 5 the americans own similarly the americans all the dominant force in the e.u. that's the problem you know george and he the argument coming out of washington

that we are trump and now we're leading into the biting was there a russia will have them ally in a dominant influence over europe's energy policy but i mean if you step back and say well no you won't be the europeans you want the europeans to buy your american liquefied natural gas so you will be reliant upon american companies and american foreign policy i mean if you step back here it's pretty obvious that the opera see a big mirror i mean gas is a company it has shareholders that is invested billions of dollars into a pipeline it was an agreement with the german government ok the russians want to return earlier best why in the world would they kind of wind that would be kind and that would be spiting themselves i mean the logic of this argument doesn't have made any sense whatsoever go ahead though if that's exactly right it was the germans who came to the russians and said we want to do this deal because the whole

pipeline that went through ukraine was unreliable because the ukrainians was stealing the gas and this led to continual interruptions of the gas flow to europe and is a jones who came to the russians and wanted this alternative route for the natural gas europe as a signal of we have to go to a hard break now or break you know what is a real new state or. this is a speculative attack then elon musk is banking on the fed right so he's already going to want to set the s.e.c. is already going to work yes he's shown them to be in capture now he's going to war with the fed and say look i buy back my own stock i'm going to take your cheap money i'm going to buy it quite like like. sailors and now 500 other c.e.o.'s in the s. and p. 500 go like you know it that's a darn good idea. the world is

driven by. the day or thinks. we dare to ask. welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered on peter lavelle remind you we're talking about some real names. let's go back to george in budapest george wherein they post impeachment

environment year and they sent him an introduction to the start of the program that washington likes to lecture the world about democracy and the rule of law but when in watching snippets i was going to waste you know precious hours of my life watching the changing room court here i mean the rule of law was flaunted here and in about democracy well the way i look at it dispassionately from a constitutional point of view it wasn't donald trump that was on trial it was his supporters go ahead george that is exactly right the whole point of this impeachment suck us was to denigrate those supporters to teach them a lesson never never never vote for populists such as donald trump every game. that's all it was a solo there was not even the minimal pretense of a judicial process 2 there was no evidence collected or you know we

we don't even know the barest 2 minimum about what actually happened on january the 6th i wasn't even a part of proper investigation of the events of general say there was no attempt to present any kind of a wholesale relationship between anything that donald trump they all said and what happened on capitol hill they rush this through you know trump's a little boy is one of president 1. trump was unable to answer any of the charges and then they dumped it into the hands of the senate and they gave they really had no evidence after all it was really. just an attempt to constantly bash trump denounce him and trotting out all of the try it cliches from the past 4 years and it was quite shocking to be honest to see every single democrat voting to 1st impeach drawn and then to convict him every single one i mean and you know that if

trump is still president and it does then we know the impeachment in 2 weeks time every single democrat will fall for it if it be true that so if this has no connection with anything at all that trump was done will set it's just. a political tool you know to the bashing supporters and it's clearly it violation of the constitution because it's clearly not what the framers intended when they put in the clause about impeachment i mean they they they specify that it had to be something very extreme and it's not just a matter of you know the political opponents say i don't like him i like his views so let's just impeach him you know marcus or me this whole impeachment sharod was the it's real point was the beginning of something is to normalise the vilification of how the. electorate this is is that is the beginning ok we're talking about domestic terror laws we're getting down into political purity tests right now we

the 1st step we saw was the kind of cleansing of the troops securing the capitol from what no we're never told that there's a cure him from but i mean this is this is this was the opening salvo and george is already said it is to make sure that no populous from the left or the right ever gets that close to power again so that not another trump not another bernie sanders ok but if you look at a lot of trump supporters and a lot of bernie sanders supporters they have a lot in common that's what they're afraid of they're afraid of that ok they've they're using this political rhetoric the teeth that divide there that's why they desperately need trump in the political conversation they desperately need that is much as they vilify him go ahead mark be impeachment trial was nothing more than a politically motivated toss firstly joe biden has filed suit the friend america's democracy yet he was quite content to save the

american constitution and violates it because the american constitution clearly states that an american presence who is no longer in office can be impeached secondly if donald trump was guilty of inciting his supporters to storm capitol hill and then how many democratic politicians last year was guilty of inciting the b.l.m. mobs to ransacked american towns and villages to physically and mentally assault americans including the black people how many american businesses shops for instance. well destroyed by b.l.m. moss no this as you have said and as george has said the impeachment trial was all about intense ensuite impose or further impose the little status

quo in america and therein lies the danger of the future danger to the very unity of america because i believe that not as mistaken neff sometime in the future the union will be in serious trouble under less decisive clinical action is taken against the likes of people such as joe biden and nancy pelosi because these people. that they proclaim to leave it in diversity and to being respectful yet they do not tolerate different opinions they do not tolerate difference arguments bay have one opinion they have one ideology and their pet sense insert impose that on the whole of america and that is a very dangerous state fest and it just exposes as ludicrous and not since the

notion that america is the most democratic is the most free country in the world it is absolute nonsense it's nothing more or it is certainly emerging as nothing more than a little tyranny yeah enter that being as the be a list listen to these these ideological voices from the left about deprogramming reprogramming programming the bad beats nation earn all of this is one small problem but these voices fail to address what happens if people resents they don't want to be reprogrammed to deprogram ok because these people again the deplorable idea that we dumped on hillary clinton is a. these the boreholes they need any help and up intelligence nowhere news agency that's not true ok and that's the danger that we have right now because people are

going to run saying who are you what kind of moral authority is baseball or google ok you're not god you're not my church and i don't want to join your cults bowhead . yes there are the resistance issue is indeed a very serious 1 1 which is why they want to pass legislation about domestic terrorism and why they want to make an example of the people who are involved in the capitol hill disturbances so you know normally if you look at what really happened you know you would you charge them with breaking and entering. a resisting arrest whatever they want to settle for less they wanted those on weeks of dition conspiracy to overthrow the government all sorts of nonsensical charges so that they can hit the people who just went into nancy pelosi

is dest what he speak out on her desk and took them and amuse them below i want to hit a bad guy with some charges they then sent him 25 years in prison. and of course you know he's not just wanted out you know everyone who was involved in the black lives matter arises you know they they get a free pass so it's a matter of trying to intimidate the population and say if you have the wrong views and your engaged in anything that we deem illegal you're going behind bars folks that case. you know whose views we have through out they walk i mean it's a way of trying to just intimidate the public and to break 2 the resistance it's untenable here you know you know marcus they mean these are the same people that. pedalled say the russian gate hoax for well over 3 years 4 years and they call the rest of us conspiracy theorists ok i mean asking

a question is now someone that it can be called a conspiracy theorist ok and a week question the hoax from day one on this program from day one we said it was a hoax we were proven absolutely correct one of the very few news outlets that watched that story continued with and to the very very end but still it lives on and the the what they want to do is they want to take the tragic events accountable and they want to create their own conspiracy against half the half the republican. the problem pizza is that. the average american and the average briton did not show sufficient interest though actually in many cases no interest whatsoever in the lies which the american governments and the british governments were exports in about us efforts of for example buses interfering and in turn or face a lot just america but also britain why because those americans that britons for

well it doesn't concern us the problem is that it did actually concern them because those people who are who are peddling these lies are actually the same people who pose a terrible inferno friends to americans and british people so this just have a look at the nature of these little politicians and jennison america and brits and they don't just pose a tremendous threat to women's rights they pose a tremendous frets to the very identity of women they pose a terrible threat to children they are coolly for children to be taught in schools how to masturbate they are head in little boys as young as 78 and 9 years of age if you do not feel happy in life then it is probably because you should not really be a boy and you should have sex changing surgery this is the nature of

the people who lost telling us that we must respect diversity we must resist we must be progressive no they have hijacked the was equality what it is to be progressive diversity theys people and not just frets to democracy in america and in britain they are all 4 or 4 frets to morality in by 3 american president. thank you will finish it up here i mean children are not allowed to drink alcohol or buy alcohol you're not allowed to drive a car until you're a certain age but you're going to let children under the age of 10 make life changing decisions about their body when they're not even a really aware of their entire human ness at that age here it's a real shame and we're we're going to really regret it we're going to bring this

are our society and our culture is really going to regret playing with children's lives like as i write gentlemen that's all the time we have want to thank my guests in budapest and in london and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are see you next time remember. do you. feel. good with the. machine the sort of the beach will storm of the lower story. when you go to the movies go to.

the school of the. chief of. police league. that would make. him pat leahy have no option because they were afraid to defend their jobs. some republicans suggest that jill biden should be impeached of them legal process is becoming the new political. the price of free speech shaped journalist is her assaulted she covers up protest we get her take on what life like for a reporter in a divided america. i feel that being conservative. and with measures for.