welcome to worlds apart do cultural ones come fast and he was to be easy to play cards seriously and yes even to. defeat at the 2nd failed impeachment you continues to be the joker in american politics linking smartly is likely to determine the future of the republic and then the democratic party's bulls and rugby ukridge by these untruly player so what's on the cars for the next few years in american politics well to discuss that i'm now joined by michael johnson a co-founder of the tea party movement and a former speechwriter for president george h.w. bush mr jones it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time and pleasure to be with you. i give you a card player by any chance. but really what they play.

bridge and. i don't know if you are aware by this was the american the north american ag game of your career that is responsible for introducing the joker into the modern deck of cards. just in the same ways i think donald trump introduced this new style of politics world by and now that he's out of office do you think his game is over. absolutely not i think he's proven in a transformational worse in american politics. it's true that he has led this movement this make america great again. but it's also true that that movement existed in a lot of ways and was looking for leadership on the presidential level if you go back to 2008 with the mccain candidate series you don't well with romney i don't think that these millions of what he called the forgotten men and women really felt

represented the do feel and did feel represented in his own leadership so i think he has a bright future as a force in american politics i'm not sure everybody on the republican side will agree with me and i'm on i don't want to over bring you or our beer is quite mad that for us but i think the fascinating thing about the joker is that depending on the game it could be a tall child it would be a skip cart or it would be the lowest ranking card and i think it reflects your he act or it would be a choice that the republican party faces right now is that if they would use them as their biggest asset they would try to ignore him or they could try to ostracize and destroy which strategy is most likely and we strategies well slightly toward bass i think the 4 there are 2 horses in the republican party and this is true in the democratic party as well i mean one is the inside establishment forces

that's what you're referring to. the 2nd would be the people and if you look at the popularity of that trump has among the people in the republican party it's about 90 percent and in the country it's about 50 percent which is pretty similar to where obama was as far as you know about half the country being supportive of the 90 percent support rate within the party room. really means that the force is going to come from the grassroots it becomes difficult not impossible with difficult for this establishment to ultimately work and ultimately he really has not just been a transformational worse within the country but within the party itself mean it's important to remember when he ran in 2016 with well over a dozen opponents part of his messaging was that the republican party needed change and he did set about changing it to

a considerable extent. well the one thing about donald trump is that they were ability ratings to remain very strong as the one of the polls recently and it shows that it's as strong as men's it will cease but there i don't know whether it's a good thing or not but it shows you know that you know a lot of people appreciate what he's unfair builds your ratings also pretty strong and the american political analysis is so opinionated these days that it's almost impossible to you know make an educated. come up with an educated actual opinion on how much support he really has a was one of time based on your own intuition and what is it that he can still bring to your young woman or his broader political base and what is it that his attention liabilities. well those lobbyists role that he can play as well in 2022 we will have the off year congressional elections going to be

a lot of decisions that need to be made about republican primary races and what sort of ideology what sort of political figures do we gravitate to is that you know do we challenge some of these establishment forces i believe in a lot of ways the tea party movement which i was very involved in the founding and leading kind of lay the groundwork in a lot of ways for populous politics right of center in this country who are just grassroots political movement really in the country's history and when you think about the fact that the red that trauma not well known you know been spoken had tea party rally in 2011 was impressed with the movement i think into a lot of these tactics out of it and that we utilized i think 2022 and then ultimately will have to decide on a nominee in 2024. he certainly shows all indications of having interest in that and. our cycles our presidential cycles are really long running i

mean it's been a 2 year process so i mean if you are up here it come to the crux of the problem because what trumps experience has demonstrated is that one can be an american president in title but not in stature with ability to govern as. they be it takes that of sabotage a work it was pretty apparent goal for his dick detractors and he supporter and i mean he's that tractors ride in it in doing that do you think that it was primarily driven by a hatred or dislike of trying to race the belly or was it ultimately the rejection or big brother politics that he and you represent probably a little bit of the i think the clinician of any president when they come in is to kind of put the runs stamp on the office you know obviously trump did that as well when he came in in 2017 in

a number of the obama executive orders were peeled and a lot of what trump accomplished more and more years in fact has been repealed by biden in pretty quick order alternately wallet trump may not be exerting direct political influence there's going to be a compare and contrast i don't see biden were his policies really being the recipe for this country's future i think the country was sort of aware that in the election i think are going to become increasingly aware that is the results don't really match up to the promises. i know that even in politics for quite some time he used to serve as a speechwriter for president bush sr i know that he embraced trondra fairly early on as somebody who had had enough agency to challenge the bit to take on this

occult swan but taking office and executing power very different things do you think he was asked successful in the latter as he was in the former. i think you make a good point it he there's the politics of running for the office there is the reality of delivering on fundamental transformations if we're going to and i think the president was very successful particularly in those 1st 3 years before the pandemic affected the economy and the public health system improve such a distraction that in a lot of ways you know the swamp wasn't drained no one's under any illusions about that a lot of work remains to be done we continue to border and immigration issues trade issues but i think what he has accomplished is putting those 2 primary issues which were not really on the republican agenda at the forefront so this idea of border

security and reforming immigration which definitely needs to be done and resolving our trade position and frankly confronting china and india which is i think he properly pointed out really the predominant. adversary of the united states in the 21st century and of the world not just of the united states well i think there is a. more or less an agreement that even here in russia has good political instincts . but i urge you and one of the present to say that is not that good at. his ideas into practice and really managing his personality and. how the frequency with which he is so tell people where we're at change throughout his administration clearly on to mind the success of his mission and i think that's ultimately

a trans dilemma the very things that feel his rise to power make it very difficult for him to execute that as the republicans are looking forward towards the midterm elections and they an ex-president. do you think any division of labor is possible do you think trump himself with agree to being a sort of a locomotive or an ice breaker for for the people who ones in power could govern more strategically or perhaps less do visibly. well i think the operative firstly i agree that is my been my position that if there was any deficiency in the last 4 years it was the fact that we had this transformational president with with really grand aspirations that were broadly supported by the american people in the most populous present and countries recent history that were matched by the appointments that were made in the administration i think maybe with his background in business

he might have underestimated the importance of personnel but just having worked in the white house in the executive branch of government so much rests on personnel you can have a great visionary as president who can even set broad directives but there are so many places where policies can get stalled or they can fail or or there cannot be sufficient these he has been and i do think he was victimized in a lot of ways and was evidence by people who left in the middle the ministration with who were critical of him who really had no role being in the administration they didn't support the agenda and probably shouldn't have been there but i think he probably did think that it was big enough to. know we right that ship but. there were so many distractions and particularly the the russian desta geisha in the ukraine and impeachment both of which were baseless and. both of

which really were a product of individuals within the administration undermining mr jones let me everything a back to the question that i pose do you think any sort of free grouping is possible to have of the. way the electorate that may be delegating the governing party they need a greedy of governance just somebody else besides i don't think he enjoyed that. all that much time in being in office and being involved in all those minor details do you think i see the g.o.p. establishment group have any deal on that to maximize their common chances for the sake of their own base it's tough to really identify anyone who would be immediately. replacing a hole in that wall that he would no comfortable with i don't i get the sense that he still you don't see is a lot of fun you know mike and he doesn't want to put it where you need the last 2

weeks of that campaign which by the way was like a 3 or 4 weeks after he was awesome clued in he was you know for 5 campaign rallies of the day in several different states the energy wells are there the passion is near and as you can see into some of the most recent comments you need over the last few days he's still. a positive vision of the future and also as you know hostility that some of the oppositions seems well mr jones i really have to take a very short break right now but we'll get back in just a few moments states you. know this is really the beginning of the changing of the guard you know are now handing the baton off to china as the number one economy in the 21st century the numbers

are there the statistics are there their relationships and you're here you are there the relationship with russia and iran is there you know there and their relationship all over africa is also there. welcome back to worlds apart with michael jones co-founder of the tea party movement mr jones before the break we discussed the republican strategy a little bit let's talk about your political opponents and heard you say in some other interviews that the same people who are under estimated the tea party movement the same people who underestimated donald trump happened to be the people

who hadn't traveled much around the united states maybe they have traveled a lot about around the world but they don't know of the american heartland all that well now after 4 years of don't trump i think these people are very determined not to allow that happen average do you think that will miss asset they down being more a human and to the needs to the aspirations. of the common folks in the united states. unfortunately i don't see a policy agenda that they're offering they the democrats would but we're binding ration and it's going to resonate really with this you know the center in the heartland of the country and it is undeniably true that we there was a decision in this country to make it in new york city in washington d.c. and you can spend a lot of your time there and feel you understand the country but really don't and

there are so many factors mentioned trade and immigration but there were other issues to hit the crisis that was under arrest mr underappreciated the the impact that access to health care in rural areas was presenting many these are job creation and move you know mobilization within a condi that's really changed profoundly over the last new decades all of those were issues that they might have put some rhetoric on and still might put some rhetoric on but they have no real policy solution and you know certainly the direction that biden's taking things early on in. immigration and in. moving some of these positions on china which was impacting our country and and ultimately putting forward increases on taxes those are things that are

going to resonate with working men and women in the country. i studied them countless right in the middle of the united states some 20 years ago and i think even at the time that they have banned them and the american heartland . brought in by deindustrialization i think that's the core of the problem was pretty obvious back down and i think no one to be frank with you can change that in 4 years or even 8 here simply because it's rather than the. the economic model that the united states has adopted for itself and that it still pushes on on the rest of the world trump has tried to challenge that it he got bitten for that we still don't know the full extent of his potential punishment for daring to do so do you think anyone else. having seen what the how trump has been sabotaged how he may be persecuted because of trying what he tried to do you think

anyone else would have enough daring to do to get. you to read that's the message is that which news drives and you know don't anyone be daring enough to try once again. now i don't think that's going to deter individually i don't think most importantly that it's going to deter 75000000 americans you those who are him which even though he lost importantly was more. than 63000000 votes he received in 2016 so there is a strong force ality in the country no less there are seeing any ministration that's addressing these issues in some capacity and there's no sign of that so far i think they're going to become increasingly politically gauge as the tea party movement 1st was in 2009 and we think about that impact you know we came back won

the 2010 off year elections with 60 some tea party aligned house members that was the end of obama's legislative agenda for the. remaining 4. 68 years well speaking of which can i can ask you specifically about some of the founding and ideas of the tea party movement because they think with limited government and lower taxes which i guess was understandable for 2009 but for you 1021 when chance national corporations will such a huge influence it infers that they apply to the if electoral campaigns as well when they re kids huge profits and the expense of the. little man do you think that this position is still ideologically sustainable if not a strong national government again reigning in those powerful forces. you know i don't

separate the 2 i think firstly on the issue of tax relief that there is still a lot of momentum and strength behind that issue and particularly for. low and middle income tax relief on the issue of the role of the federal government i think the pandemic hasn't assessed the tape did. the stimulus and it you know i'm heavily . gauged federal government on that issue that's understandable to the base of the tea party movement and the trunk. movement i think the issue really relies predominantly in how that money is being allocated so for instance democrats want to put a lot of that into a lot of the blue states and cities in and democrat states that have been poorly run to continue to be failed approaches that's not something that support of

i think that even the direct payments to the american people have been generally supported including. in the tea party movement is not necessary to stimulate this economy create the demand that's going to get particularly small business back into. line in this country because that's the biggest risk right now big companies that well capitalized their multinational almost certainly are going to get through some of the get through all this some of them like amazon wal-mart are actually prospering in this economy the biggest concern is the community in communities are the smaller. stores and whatnot that might employ a few individuals and how do what did they do can they be sustained through the pandemic and it's in our response and parents you know understand that this is a natural consequence that are whether they are free market approach i mean i base

this team. it's logical. i think it's also pretty clear around the world that there is. an increase in chance and then national and transnational elites and it has many laughs national police. national governments strong national governments as a good rap impediment. were that avarice to reshape their world to their liking or robards their bottom lines so again there i'm serve for beating myself but how can you. rein in those companies with a limited government approach. well we're not looking to rein them in we just want to maintain a fair playing field so no one is saying those companies shouldn't exist and they provide valuable services what you don't want to see in computer had thinking this pandemic environment where there were they don't have the access to

credit capital that larger companies have is that they're placed a disproportionate. disadvantage and end up going out of business which further you know empowers the larger companies and almost an old a leader or a monopoly formation we want to maintain a free economy where smaller companies can provide niche services and local services and the would. be unfair playing well but that you would need to regulate camera. out of the movie need so for instance antitrust legislation very important can't have too much this is particularly true and in technology industry where i think we're seeing too much power in the hands of. handful of companies it's not received the level of policy scrutiny that it deserves to see the rhetoric but it hasn't received the policy

attention and you know and it may be true and read in retail as well as well i think that's an area another industry sector where there's concerns you want to maintain i mean part of the free market economy is maintaining competent competitive macro economic circumstances where etc talking about balance good balance of the market they're actually not very compatible you either have a balanced regulation not serious. in they save or you let it all figure out. of course anyway we have only a few minutes left and i do want to ask you one important question about the numbers because the tea party movement has seen mass immigration as a threat to the country and i think to its own political representation for quite some time and the biden administration has come up with many ideas on how to change

the rules of the game in that particular area i had of the next wave of elections but 10 surely increasing its electoral base not just by millions but maybe even tons of billions of people i'm talking about a. proposal to grant the path to citizenship for the dreamers and also thinking about the changes to create new american states what have you if that happens how is that going to change the balance of power in american politics and wouldn't that essentially strip people like yourself from any hole for federal political representation. i serve the fact that unfortunately there's been too much political consideration and non of policy considerations as far as the impact on the country and so that should be the debate we're having is it is it or is it not in the interest of the american citizen to

have 11 to 30000000 illegal and aliens rewarded for violating our friend who border policies and i would contend in a whole bunch of ways it is not in their interests all they are going to do to me and they are already in the country so let's legalize them but. i guess the problem that i think me i as an outside a scene that is too much political logic in all those. all coming to the fore coincidentally i had over. and the other major election i often joke if there were these were trumped political will less that we're entering cross our southern border democrats could not get that wall built fast enough. they do see there's 2 forces that i think are detrimental that they're driving this

number one is they do see a political constituency that could potentially arise out of that base given that these are woo wage largely non english speaking. heavily welfare dependent. individuals and number 2 the fact that there is a there's this larger force that you're correctly willing to that wants to maintain or drive wages down you do that by keeping labor surplus up but if but on our side i don't really think it's the political consideration is driving this is much it's more we've had concerns about. you know the issue of illegal alien. crime which has been considerable drug gangs but that issues with wages and jobs particularly in the pandemic the last thing you want to be doing is crowding out jobs for americans are looking to get back into the workforce you do

that when you give a weapon to 30000000 americans it passed to you you know to full employment in the country. well mr jones we have to leave it there thank you very much i think some time that i have thank you very much we do with you i thank you for watching come to syria again next week care for all that hard. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then.

imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century what are the chapters called gun violence school shootings homelessness 1st it was my job then it was my fear with dealing with my savings i have nothing i have nothing it is not like i don't try aloof or resources i look for jobs i look for everything i can to make this house. in oil and i'm doing this. the road to the american dream paved with good refugees it's this very idealized image of our america needs americans look past the depths that happen every single day this is a modern history of the usa america on r.t. .

in the stories that shaped the week moscow warned that brussels is politicizing the fight again for pandemic of the kremlin gets back controversial comments from the head of the european union casting down for russia's cove in fact seen. also this hour australians launched a campaign to boycott facebook and after fans news posts in the country that are giants made the move over the post long to make social networks pay freeze on times but the issue up for debate. facebook profit on someone else's work without giving them some look biggest problem with facebook is but they're utterly controlling the narrative i think this whole social media i guess ecosystem has really spun out of control in terms of how it is monetize. dozens are.