this is how one doctor's theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation psychological torture. disseminated within the u.s. intelligence community and worldwide among our allies for the next 30 years and how the victims say they still live with the consequences today.

hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter a well there are already strong signs the by bin ministration is we turning to the foreign policy of the obama years is this once obama's foreign policies were hardly a success indeed this was the time of endless wars will the biting ministration repeat the mistakes committed under obama. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest mark allman in oxford he is the director of the crisis research institute and in budapest we have jordan's i mean well he's a podcast or at the gavel which can be found on you tube and gentlemen crossed up rules and back that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to markers in an ox for continuity in change as we always look at when a new and minute. gratian comes in and we see

a lot of continuity and change. only on the rhetorical side of things we hear we hear that the all of the biden mr asian is essentially going to back away from saudi arabia's genocidal war against yemen but he says it will continue to support the sovereignty of saudi arabia and we we are on the 1st day of the binding ministration we have troop movements from iraq into syria so that tells us what's going on here just a couple days ago nato has made it very clear that it's going to up its. troop level training level in iraq of course we have the dealing with iran if ministration doesn't seem to know which direction it wants to go but certainly it is anti russia and china and that is just the top bullet points go ahead mark. i think the interesting thing is that during the trump years. former biden officials for obama officials often accused him of spending all his time simply trying to wipe out the legacy obama as it was the trump foreign policy and maybe today we're

seeing the most sense by this trying to undo everything that trump did so that for instance all the it's as you say true to say in the. in the saudi question he is pursuing a rather ambivalent course because yes he's saying we would like the war now meant to stop us we're going to stop providing certain types of support for the war effort but on the other hand we support the saudi state but he also explicitly allowed his spokesman to say i'll only be dealing with the king of saudi arabia he's my counterpart not the crown prince and similarly he waited a month before he spoke to benjamin netanyahu in israel both the crown prince of saudi arabia and the promise of israel were very close interlocutors with donald trump so what we might be seeing is also a discredited in the electoral terms because elections coming up in israel of netanyahu the americans by the new american especially hoping this a different coalition will be called without netanyahu but also perhaps more.

strikingly in a way by began his period of president and some of the boma did with regard to mubarak in egypt remember i'm sure they have to because president obama very demonstrably met members of the muslim brotherhood when he gave a speech in the car university and in a sense the united states was no longer totally behind mubarak and what happened to him and i think we should maybe that as we are sitting through the months of the 1st from the 10th anniversary of the so-called arab spring back in 2011 and our states may now be the sense saying we need to see big changes in saudi arabia. you know but you dismiss me kind of begs the question george i mean mark is absolutely right now between you said but i think i'm very weary of just personalizing boerum policy ok because the country's interests don't change very rarely change dramatically with a different leader and and easy birth naisi journalist and lazy policy makers a rocket if you can the prince but you're still dealing with the radio ok the

energy going to. wait if you're absolutely right i think mark is on to something that there is an attempt on the part of the biden people to us every single thing that the trump of been astray should did and i think that that's a good point about saudi arabia 1. you see the same thing in the case though russia and china if you look at. biden's speech at the. munich security conference as well as the speech at the state department he is really really venomous towards russia. you know they would say it's just one condemnation of for another i mean he is pretty much labeling russia as and then we have the united states that it is determined to destroy the power and influence of the united states and its allies and when it comes to china 1. it's a much more much softer approach you know china is a competitor. and why yes he does talk about own car in the endzone the best i

don't place china as just 8. of the epic and. it's really interesting here is that it seems to me and you and i are not as many. as russia this is this is russia gate absolutely leading into warm policy because he's in this is a domestic issue in the united states mint and then when china will you have the n.b.a. and you have disney and it's so much more complicated because his comments about china were i mean not just buzzy it was muddled i mean i really didn't know what kind you are going to make me go back to market but this is an administration that is makes listen wait time russia and china gather as competitors adversaries even enemies in the case of russia this is something and in an incoming administration is never done before go ahead yes i mean the sudden a big contrast with the time of obama is of course there is no cause for the reset

so there's nothing offered on the contrary the so-called new cold war seems to be getting much cooler all the time. it's true to say that for instance with china because of all the economic include kids to spite the preservation of the trump power since also fall it's very difficult devices really to decouple from china without actually having to think about spending a huge amount of money domestically. on reviving the production of finding other sources but the the real question is who is this point for national interests remaining the same even if people in charge change but the congress new who interprets the savings and i think one of the issues perhaps in washington more than say in other states is the degree to which national interest in international relations is perceived through the domestic rivalries and resentments because partly our system is very fortunate in the sense that it hasn't really faced the problem of having neighbors that can attack it or cause it trouble so to critics.

foreign policy has been much more a matter of internal rivalries and often scoring points over your domestic. ones too that said. as you say the seepage into the political culture of the belief that not only is russia or malign fools but the russia has in some sense some deep demonic powers able to influence develop since i think is such a profound cultural shift that it's going to be very difficult to us to escape from that another course pushes russia in trying to go through we see in all sorts of areas now military cooperation much more quickly cooperation economic factors infrastructure and then could just between russian energy in china and so all of these things are going to be very difficult to reverse the americans complain all the time about the north stream pipeline between russia and germany bypassing the central european states and how that creates a long term strategic shift well of course in the far east and because the change in a sense is taking place and is in

a sense the promoter of it because most of these 2 states together is a mutual sense that they're under pressure from the americans of the dozen our states feels itself in the relative decline in risks lashing out and this is of great interest to in american intellectual circles a big discussion of is china of the new imperial germany is it like the homes job the challenge in britain at the end of the licensing of the press entry but in many ways as the great american historian said he would fear that our states was more like the home seconds germany than it rivals in. you know you know george and i'm the thing is that you and i honor going over the years you know maybe. sometimes there's questioning one of warm policy was you know you know we have we just roaming alliance between russia and china and you've done everything in their policy to push them to gether and then we then we know it barry in the waning days of the drumbeat ministration the new. you need with great haste i would say

a sign to make a huge investment deal with china and so you know when bae goes to munich and you know or speaks community is a we're back in once people say what does that means you because it means something different to us because as united said many times and you know you're of no society but no it's going to be a player on the world's a woman or it's going to happen. yes yes that's exactly right and when you get the this of the europeans to say ok we want that we don't like trunk trump was very rude to a. great of us. who is very rude you know he just was very dismissive and that wasn't the suing flattering way that you get into these transatlantic conflict so when they get a bite i'm back and he said well i am america's back but what is by offering your is if offering yet more of these interventionist wars and they look at what he's

doing in the middle east in particular in syria where he is now. massively increased american military presence of syria now he's building a 2nd base in syria now nato is increasing its presence in iraq so they what they europe is getting from america he's back is you know military escapades in the middle east which as we saw back in the obama years has a blowback effect on europe through the massive migration flows but just going back to the interest of the national interest what what crumpet please did is he identified a specific american national interest which was to rebuild the american industrial economy i mean whether it's feasible or not is a definition but that was nonetheless his agenda that america should become once again and in does. powerhouse as it was back in the 1950 isn't 6 is and for that he

wanted to shift. america's manufacturing industry back to the united states biden has identified anything of that nature when whenever he talks about america's national interest he teach the eba values rather views have nothing to do with national interest i mean they just. becomes of the justification for pointless interventionist wars you know or it or it's a budget line for diversity but again that still addressing the domestic audience here you know mark one of one of the things that i find very interesting is that i look at the obama administration's foreign policy with the exception of iran which we'll talk in the 2nd part of the program is basically a failure or a failing grade ok but even seems to me that they just want to put it back in super charge again i mean there doesn't seem to be any kind of critical analysis some of the mistakes made during the obama administration and weaknesses and coming to

terms with the consequences about foreign policy joe biden just like george st bernard talk about about use them policy go ahead but yeah i think it's worth mentioning afghanistan as well as iraq because george mentioned that we're seeing the sense to just to return to what was going before and in a sense saying that there's a kind of attrition we can sustain relatively trivial losses for western side and he's also been supported by their parents i think it's worth mentioning that there's the macro made the most extraordinary statement in his speech to the munich security conference when he congratulated joe biden on discussing things in his speech which you have mentioned. so why the back home was briefed so that biden was going to talk in great detail about the middle east about iraq and afghanistan or he was trying to make a point that the emphasis applied on russia and china was the to be both views and who offer was not really what the european allies wanted what they want to see as the war on terror continued they see any withdrawal of nato fluffed honest on any would call of open. the nato support for iraq and also involvement in syria as

being a danger and tom so. they're going to get it was not recommended that you know. why they would not. join me every 1st week on the all excited i'm sure i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics for this list i'm show business i'll see you then. so this is really the beginning of the changing of the guard in our now handing the baton off to china as the number one economy in the 21st century the numbers are there the statistics are there the relationships in your career are there the relationship with russia and iran is there any other and the relationship all over

africa is awful or. well about to cross up were all things are considered. discussing biden's foreign policy. ok let's go back to mark in oxford you were trying to make a point before we went to the break go ahead mark it's true the president really orkin allies of nato on all anxious to continue the involvements enough premised on iraq and the middle east in general because they see these areas of instability is causing for instance the terrorists are actually your goals will might think we say that there are also reasons for the 1st lesson or one factor has undoubtedly been the involvement of new work in nato allies in these places in the muslim world you mean and you know i think sometimes we get much of the white house but when it's it

seems to mean that they there is very very strong vested. interest in these i need to remember going through the red lanterns it's ok i mean there again this is what they do ok in an eyewitness i would make the argument that. you know if you're going to be going to focus on terrorism in these countries you know you get them before they come to us not mentality where you're just giving them oxygen to exist you get you mentioned it seems to me that that's one of the lessons that was have been learned on the so-called war on terror and you know if nato were to bocas that separate zone border into the whole immigration control. and nightmare is in that sense i think that's a good mission in the next me it is in the national interest to get going north to new york you're not you're not go that's exactly right because that should be nato is primary mission which is securing the borders of its member states to shore

up security for the european people living in europe but that's not what nato does i mean they do justifies its existence by. soaking up threats and getting involved in a variety of conflicts overall nobody asked nato to get involved in libya but that was all there was a war of choice nato decided to get involved in libya nato got itself involved 'd in iraq it got its of involved in syria got involved 'd in afghanistan none of these things has brought has brought any kind of security to europe which is the again real stance of what justification for nature. and now with its you with its constant drumbeat of hostility toward russia again it is not bringing any kind of security to europe because it only leads to confrontations

a very you know which could get quite gnostic. 1 in the baltics and in the in the black sea so because of the whole nato who know all it's actually creating security threats that it. claims to be the solution to war but of course it isn't so so that what you're saying is that the they're doubling down on a mistake ok instead of realizing it was them then you have their new policies justified to alleviate the mistake that was originally made. that's exactly right so you know they way they way they. justify their existence is by exacerbating threats and then 'd they say well wait things are worse we need nato bad because otherwise you know the horrific things that happened you know we have to fight them over there yet before they come over here you know mark it with much fanfare in the

in the in the national security council but the by mr may have kind of rolled it out is that in the is going to the asian desk and bureaus have a much more higher profile much more many more resources and all this but you know again i think that they're trying they're looking at and then there's this not just by him but i mean ever since the end of the cold air is that you know is that they somehow can replicate a nato elsewhere which they haven't had much success in doing and and i can see that you know apart nato germany and france one of the great reconciliations of our time that's when wonderful but i don't i don't see the same thing being replicated in asia and i can't see how the the the south koreans in the chappie knees in the australians or the b. of minis look you know are going to act in the quite the same way nature we need during its heart in original creation all the way up to the present go ahead mark. we can see cope with that for instance japan and south korea are allies of the united states but they are suspicious of each other and we can see for instance

over issues like me on mall today japan is not at all i'm close to getting involved in the in telephones of am i right no wrong that's just a huge difference and so we're kind of cohesion the progress that you had in nato. plans as of old who are 70 is not a very powerful a glance a state like britain as one of the members and so you don't really have a tool that i'm trying to do both for instance india and japan and 1st other countries in a alliance raises all sorts of questions because if you have the classic just took away from those who was it it was to stop the tap to where there is a will the danger that you get in. states that do territorial disputes over one quarter of a joining nato was supposed to have been territorial disputes so that we couldn't have a councils by the just waiting to be true that suddenly we can see in concrete that on the korean peninsula between india and china there are all sorts of potential for conflict and you then say would will these all the states necessarily want to sign up to be dragged into a conflict which to them is

a long way away and is very meaningless and also would unfold with china which is also such an economically important call so even though countries like the philippines want to protect themselves from the sea they don't necessarily want to get involved in a prolonged cold war with china because it's an economic component you know you know georgia the the the real issue here is it's really i always find a kind of curious to the point of being hilarious about you know america in protecting american national interest well there's no there's no real country in the world seriously threatens the united states i mean if you want to talk about nuclear power china russia well then they would be destroyed ok the whole issue of met with would be in play here so but really what's at issue and going back to your original comment about munich is you know biden says we're bad but we want you to back our kid gemini and maintain our gemini and that's what they're saying to their allies in asia do we want you to come on board do you maintain i were are

a gemini ok and not everybody wants to be part of that deal anymore but particularly in asia where you know people are you know all these fanatics like my decoupling from china what that's going to be american business is going to have to decide that are in less the government wants to get involved in that which i doubt very seriously as good that's why joe doesn't speak very clearly about these issues but there is decoupling going on a lot of companies are moving away from the united states are moving to china because that's where they see the future being played out here so it seems to me it's a fool's errand you know to say although we're back we're going to be nice we're going to be kirti. but we want you to get in line to protect what we define is our interest the international system is far more complex no no cold war is over a long long time ago and that was ideological biz isn't it yes that's exactly right . and that's not said i mean there was the original rationale for nato

there was supposedly a. a soviet threat that people forget nato actually predates the warsaw pact but the less there was at least the rationale that you know the russians were going to do your army there were early on there on the other but if they came to the end of the cold war it became much harder to justify 1 natives existence so that one nato's purpose was to exert us hegemony over europe some say well and death for you had to continually escalate the various threats that euro face and wind it was necessary so we originally have the instant death threat from instability and instability will lead to humanitarian crisis that will lead to refugee flows therefore nato has to be there to stop instability then we have the global war on terror again will we have terrorists we have to

fight them over there on the other before they come over here so. you know it was back to russia so we you know we had to sort of the cold war ducks russia is this. huge threat so it's always a matter of trying to justify the existence of this entity which has absolutely no justification. and somehow talking up some non existence threat and they say they're doing this. in asia and they're really nobody is because they're you you have here you have to start from scratch with with nato the united states is lucky. because it was already there in existence you could just sort of keep it going through the danger of inertia but in asia they would have to started from scratch a little bit is going to want to do it and then nobody in the united states went to the precisely because we don't want to get involved in a war between india and china between philippines and china so. if there if you

take this relation they know where george already mentioned it but i think it's really important here it wouldn't let me look at how mainstream media in the main broadsheets how they describe one policy under paul and ministrations you know over the last few decades that it's all it's very him bone 2 it's all it's very value driven i mean we just have a few days ago in the new york times to low octane writers talking about they have the west now it's the great. alliance against the anti-democratic force and the china and russia and all that which all you know it sounds all nice and bind but that doesn't again go back to what no small interest might not always point out to people the great alliance the defeated naziism the very different players involved in the novel and they had one goal and they they achieved it history would turned out differently but you know he's constantly playing on his bow you know i mean you

know about fighting for gay rights in thailand recently when we're going to go to war or that we're going to go to war to mercy you know when. it doesn't you know that the top point makes a lot of sense of what people when you get really down to you and you didn't want to have military spending in a possible conflict over trying to change the ballot use and someone else somewhere else or had i think so he won again big contrast with you know the cold war is rightly or wrongly there was a perception of a big on it will trickle threat but communism had as it were great some throwing in support base that if you didn't challenge it most oh by the way who didn't improve the economic conditions of all her complete well thanks actually there isn't an ideal. cult note that i didn't see any sign that was anywhere in europe with us states with people saying if only we could be like china. it's gone and the other side is however the values can be aggressive those us well the moralistic values of supporting the. rest of the also i think a more likely source of conflict is the emphasis on climate change an environment

which the big issues but most of us how do you persuade people or do you full speed to adult. 8 environmental policies and you can see for instance part of the balsam our base in brazil is the sense that brazilians are being told that they should do things which would affect the global climate it may be the cutting down the amazon is having a disastrous effect on the global climate but you can see how all around the world there's a sense that the rich west is trying to save its own skin by forcing poor countries southern hemisphere countries into line over the poles and will it actually use force because we were looking at rhetoric you want to. bring up it's a very interesting how a separate program i would guess in oxford and but it doesn't want to make our viewers now watching as you know are easy and it's not a member. of. the

world is driven by dreamers. was. thinks. we dare to ask. the beijing. american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interest or you see in this these techniques is the state devising methods to him to essentially destroy the personality of an individual. by scientific. this is how one doctor's theories were allegedly used in psychological

warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation psychological torture of the cia disseminated within the us intelligence community and worldwide among our allies for the next 30 years and other victims say they still live with the consequences today. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't healed. in the. feeder market economies are both. me on the bus at us as mean older than us and they seem to you know thousands of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption that only. for feaster. to this day mothers still search for grown children while adults look in hope for

their birth parents. headlining right now russia accuses the e.u. were meddling in its internal affairs as the bloc imposes sanctions over the jailing of opposition figure alexina valmy him serving time right now for. infiltrating russian language media leaked documents suggest the british government sought to boost negative coverage and we can russia. while in england prime minister boris johnson hopes it's 3rd time lucky with a step. plans of lifting the latest lockdown starting with schools next month despite persistently high daily new code infection. here in moscow as a 3rd russian vaccine is registered in the country.