russian liberals this appears to be true for our russian lovely low the whims. of russia slams the us for undermining free trade on 5 competition hoff to washington boasts about european companies pulling out of the nordstrom to pipeline project in the face of u.s. sanctions. u.s. democrats demolished cable and satellite providers justify hosting right wing media outlets a move republicans say is an attack on the freedom of speech. israelis face being banned from public places and even job so unless they've been faxon ated against pope at 19 for the so called green pulses are raising can sons over human rights always a choice has a consequence and it shouldn't be that everybody in israel suffers because some

people make a bad choice i think it's absurd that think it's ridiculous basic human rights so be ignored. and angry french farmers don't fought till i saw an old ta is outside government buildings to protest against the removal of wheat from school menus. well those are your headlines this hour rumbaut you don't call me is the place for you if you want to know anything wrong bozo many many will stories next up here on team crosstalk.

and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle it's an article of faith russian liberals do not like a lot of your putin up until now russian liberals have been chanted with the western so-called western values western ideological wolk ism is changing this woke ism disparages tradition patriotism the family and even logic like math for russian liberals this appears to be going too far are russian liberals falling out of love with the west. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest paul robinson an author when he was a professor in the graduate school of public and international affairs at the university of ottawa in also we have wendy's and he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book russian conservatism and here in moscow we have to meet bob that she's

a political analyst and editor and you know smee internet media project originally cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok i was going to call 1st. in light of my introduction paul i'll ask the big question but i'm sure there's no easy answer but given that you're all everyone on our panel here is an expert in russia. are russian liberals following out of love with the west because if they are all i can say is it's about time go ahead paul i say got started sort of yes. but they remain committed to it an ideal of the west some sort of fantasy of the less they have which is so the west as it was until fairly recently but you do see a number of. now criticizing the sort of political correctness the west and the sort of modern culture and counsel culture and so on interestingly in the process they end up sounding extraordinarily like you know can so different. writes people

like xander do good and some of the things that should being said later could've come straight out of his mouth what's more significant is that coming out of the liberal camp which friend is a problem or shocking because as he said you know support of the west is very much russian liberalism about it it's all very very closely associated historically with westernization and this idea that we should become a normal i.e. western country so when people start criticizing the west from within the liberal count. in an interesting idea logical shift you know claim that it also is happening in international relations we had just a burrell the high representative for form of policy for the e.u. he was in moscow and that turned into a real fiasco because again lecturing about values about western values and that russia needs essentially you know paraphrasing here in between the lines that you know russia has to learn oh oh bester in ways for it to be a genuine legitimate partner of the west in this case particularly the european

union your change. they're all i going to liberalism consistent some very good ideas about the central role of the individual which shareholdings obviously a disservice and a role in society the point i was making was that the really international system contra would be the couples from power politics and sense that a liberal international system in europe effectively meant that we would keep some of this block all it takes and also making russia responsible for its own exclusion by not living up to the west ideal and also it was a mix in 3 reshaping the relations so again the e.u. nato they tend to conceptualize some softness you know socializing agents they are the teachers the liberalism in russia student so under this format you have you know what's referred to sovereign equality and indeed we don't under this format we don't really discuss russian policy since to discuss their behavior so i guess are going to approach and you know so we are closer aim to reward or punish russian

behavior until their line along with ours which is a very strange way of looking at competing national interests so i think that this is what's russia is now also rejecting and that was kind of the message of a lot of 2 that you know we we can discuss we should you know set up a pragmatic format for partnership but if you say liberalism means that the west can interfere in our affairs but we counter interfere into western affairs then this is not a tolerable and also tenable format for international corporation and i think jim you know this is where the tensions are focused let me go to d.m. here in moscow you're in the think a bit here vienna i mean where did this conversation income coming out of bastions of liberal publications and in and what not because me this addressing what western you woke ism as i said in my introduction you know

questioning the family question and patriotism while a lot. russian liberals are very disparaging of their own country for even for even these that these ideas coming out of the west now are quite frightening because i suppose and you guys can all tell me that that's not part of their definition of what a russian liberal is. wow i think you know that on the stand what a shock russian numerals had more than a week ago when the construction boom off that infamous theater director obvious yes call him in no way as yet you know and let me make such a comparison i remember him i would friend to and a great specialist from russia and a goat you know when gorbachev started making his 1st statements and the west was very disparaging about them saying oh this is just a smokescreen and it won't take it in order to explain to them that gorbachev was serious you said you magine a pope saying to the people or to he has come to know so that the going doesn't

exist this is the same impression that the soviets had when or much else thought at that making his speeches now the whole of it is the most pro western presby and the most protest and the most and they traditional theater direct that you know russia so when he started to criticize the west it was like the satin saying that the ghost exists i saw him you know this was the same impression that trashes had when they read that call and if it had come from to get off from some but you want to crush an author it will not make a sensation but but the more ease the warst you know he is the more sed. people go into liberal but in russian he barrels op you know they're the most elitist the most disparaging all of their own people kind of political a trend so when but almost said guys the west does not treat you have that people do you know and seeing every free thought in the social natural acts you have

pressure from the state and not only from the state that was. you know and and i think that it was very important that the russians are starting to review who they are traditional views on the west and on themselves and sound it out but he well in his article but speaking about this visit by mr borrero you know i watched 3 times you know these press conference where we bora was bastow you know. when he returned you know into it to the west and i couldn't find anything impolite you know or humiliation. from our foreign minister lavrov even though all the western press all the european newspapers all the american jews because they all wrote oh this is unacceptable this was such a humiliation well who just said that the e.u. was not a reliable partner well if you have sanctions you know coming without and then for 5 years of course it's not their elavil cotton but when mr biden said if you any

a days ago when he opened the insult that the russian president who or what he meant when he didn't even call him president general biden was addressing base munich conference and he said the following let me just you know quote him. the kremlin is born in and present individual states it's a me starting to mine allah do all christian. who are generous trying to convince the whole oath of our government ease ask as they are all war well now we see that definitely it is wars right because what we have seen from you know from mr biden himself and from with he's team is just outrageous you know the i think all basement agree unfortunately the russia gate hoax is led into foreign policy something that i'm worried about it's actually you know well let me go back to the essent in your article that. russian liberalism could be very illiberal what do you

mean by that because i think one of the problems that. some of our viewers will have is that we have these ideas of conservatism and liberalism but they have different meanings a different place you know as an update and they're not watertight with tight categories i think we tend to sort of think of liberals conservatives socialist fascist as entirely separate things but then not by bay over a lot of name to mingle you can be party that robot the socialist party conservative pot a communist i mean it he sings can mix up in any number of ways and i think we should be surprised that that's true and a russian context but what we certainly seen in the past few years is that. what about the identity politics of western liberalism is not very popular among russian liberals and i mean but on the off. the mat just mentioned as one example but in the same newspaper he wrote for just

a few months there is no article by a woman called yulia latina which was very similarly outspoken denouncing what she called wolk socialists who she denounced as a bunch of loses and use some quite inflammatory language about butterflies matzoh we saw also by the us why fix any assumption that famous socialite and one time presidential candidate was used to be the face of audi and russia was fired after making what some people said was a somewhat racist tweet under a number of racist comments which appeared to come out a liberal countering the. movement on the language i don't know if you know it when you are happy degree it when you agree that. racism and bigotry isn't one of the hallmarks of russian liberalism is something that i've been telling people for years i mean the west likes to fixate on mr know bali but you can go to you tube and you can see what he what he thinks of migrant workers from the south i mean

back kind of language in england. move over to. glen here that kind of language would get you canceled in the united states and pretty damn fast ok i mean this is there's a misperception in the west of what liberalism is and the right is in russia go ahead let. oh. well i guess the problem and often why is that the ethnic component they did doesn't always come up in the west as much as it does in russia was the basic i.p.a. there after the colossal soviet union i guess many liberal saw it us as yet a stronger ethno cultural core that it is a democracy or that. the liberals who want to democracy that that. do most effectively to us it was present in democracies only link every must decide they are yet an ethnic nationalism too liberal democratic ideas so i guess i wasn't. dismissed but it's also important to see why russia has been about

this trust historically toward cities towards the liberalism because often it's with some other good reasons oh i'm going to set aside my commission an article a soileau us. liberals so yeah often they have linked liberal ideals directly to wit loyal loyalty towards western powers now this is a long long history i mean you can go back today early 18th century with you know where the great 20 want to. push for his liberal ideas and western i see europe is also actual cultural revolution so remaking the country so he will see us or treasonist worse service again he saw this in the early 19th century a smoldering been the only course and proceeding french revolution and you see it also now with only 6. to say some cold color revolutions and they took specialists and. this is something that should be welcomed. again

it's a very. it can be defined this illiberal is some way and illiberal see their goal ass effectively toppling the government through violent means getting continue with this idea yet only ready to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the right . this is oppression liberalism same. world is driven by shaped by.

the day or thinks. we dare to ask. the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interests what you see in this these techniques is the state devising methods to end to essentially destroy the personality of an individual. by scientific means this is how one doctor's theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation psychological courtroom the cia disseminated within the us intelligence community and worldwide among our allies for the next 30 years and how the victims say they still live with the consequences today.

welcome back to cross up where all things are considered i'm not sure mind you we're discussing the crisis of russian liberalism. ok let's go back to in moscow here glenn was alluding to dip into the break here you know i've lived in this in your country for over 2 decades and it's for me that it's so astounding how liberals are so disadvantaged and disparage their own country and idealize a west that does not exist maybe never ever existed here and then maybe we're getting to some point of an inflection here i don't know but to me it would be it would be very difficult for russian liberals to start reassessing their role in their cultural role because they think of themselves as like the cultural

intelligentsia so that they the best of the best that russia can provide and the best of the best are usually disparaging of their own culture in their own people go ahead oh well it's true they fuel a key story you will see a lot of off steam on things happening in the 19th century usually you know i agree with glen ross on viewed with suspicion in russia for 2 reasons you know the main reason is because usually they were previous s.s.o. who show numeral swung in fabry in 1017 and then they basically surround a poet to an extremist group which has ruled russia for 70 years after that you know by flavor of themselves had a very interesting evolution in the 19th century they began as people who were more or less you know moyle to russian people you know a but also idealized in the west people like child die off you know battle laid you know when the russian liberal saw the west if you're in for example an exam to get

some you know or have some as he's name is pronounced in english he suddenly became very critical of the west when he knew that you know he's sad you wrote that in russia you have a policeman next to you in england you have a policeman inside every person you know daily and he more. her what distinct and what is indecent you know so in fact the question in these ways and what predict and the social networks he just saw them inside society inside the western us themselves. so a man is quite right on that one but yes i think that basically if we look at how that is all going to play allat in general you know when sergey lavrov all foreign ministers sad if you days ago that if they e.u. imposes sanctions against our strategic sect us where we're going to put on hold our relationship with the you just 2 or 3 years ago it would be a scandal you know in 2011 this would be

a huge scandal you know all the liberals or even that mordred to position would say oh you know he is you know disconnect onas from europe oh oh how awful now it is viewed it was accepted actually by society as a normal diplomatic move i think that of course our own doesn't want to break up with over emissions with the e.u. but he wants to warm up in advance so that certain better things don't happen if i can make such a comparison you know the 1st of all who all started because the british government did not make it clear because of germans that if the war starts we will support from so our office sending that message if you impose sanctions don't expect it to be on onset you know as as it happened many times before we're going to you know patrol ations on hold precisely because we don't want you to ration relations when doing that right now i'm saying that right now so this is a message that the majority in a huge majority get on russian public could be municipal it's not you know the

state no if you count those times over the many many years that i've known you so would you agree with me when i say love or a strategic patience has come to an end. well i think he's patience evangelists and i will never i think i will. that would be able that it came to an end i think a lot of people thought it was i mean prize they should you know he just said that you know in an interview with a russian journalist i think with the author of who not to have improvise ations even when he's very and i mean that's why do you always call the what if i take it so seriously because i you know i've met him a number of times he doesn't speak off the cuff easily very very focused on his message or you know call one of the things that when i study european liberalism a lot and in when in talking with russian liberals you know i think for us we think about in terms of ideas the role of the individual in society express freedom

of expression. freedom of assembly freedom to protest here but that a lot of the liberals i've come across it's more of an i a european identity it's less about ideals and ideas then a. being transformed into something that you see at a distance you know that i want to be light back but it has nothing to do with really values per se my wrong about that go ahead because it brings in the ethnic element here that i find so. disgusting sometimes when i when i hear references to people of other races go ahead i think you shouldn't throw the baby out with the water there i agree cheri that because he because you see some aspects of liberalism he disliked to incite liberalism is that because you know i would describe myself as a professor. and i think actually most people even those who strongly criticized liberalism actually are she fairly liberal on some of the affected by you wouldn't want to see it go away i mean it's interesting for instance that said

a lot of rafi have not spoke up years ago and the magazine russian global affairs attacking west and liberalism that he did so entirely from the perspective of western liberalism basically saying you know the west says a democratic but not democratic right so somebody below carol have. and i think as as glenn suggested liberalism takes different forms in different countries right and in the form it's taken in russia has very much as you say has had this. to a large degree and it is i would say it's identical a western i say sion because you can get you can be a westernized and a conservative nonetheless a has been a very strong historical connection between this idea of western isn't all of making russia into and more western society. being a home market liberalism and it's associated with lot of you know force or as a local positivism which is the idea of it as a sort of almost historically determined paf right but. everyone's going to end up

in the same pot and the end of that path is the west because the west is the most advanced society so therefore you know ultimately valley is where we're all going and we shouldn't stop it and the reason that we're not might fit into the ethno nationalism is because. people from say france and central asia who be the main immigrant group in russia seen as they you know further back on that process all of historical development and therefore if you have lost all immigration from central asia you will hold back russia's progress because these people just not i don't sound. as not what i'm saying i'm trying to explain what i believe a word they say but in this understanding. you know these people for centuries on more back could bank they don't have the advance western liberal values that we do take to suspicious of islam in that regard i'm baffled we shouldn't have them hypocrites i hope back but the violence of the monks and i think this was something

about a plan that sank and survival there is you know an association back for after nationalism of liberalism which actually historically has been quite common you know glenda and it again you know it's when we look at it. we all edgy about modernization and that's always associated with westernizing here but i think you know the. debate that's happening or starting to happen in russia is that people are mistaking westernization modernization with post modernism and i think that's word search starts turning into a train wreck for a lot of russian liberals go ahead. you know all in a russian liberalism has seemingly is undergoing some change but is also due to in my opinion you do changes a bit in the liberalism in the west i mean you can this walk you some you can see it as being very radical liberalism which tends to liberate itself from all former structures because. if you like western society has traditionally been defined by

both a balance between conservative values and liberal values so conservatism tends to look at the collective identity of the group through religion culture that tradition is a family values and this dancer exist with liberalism which is putting their liberal laws are the individual at the center now is there some contradictions but they also tend to balance each other successes so this is usually when you see it society is thriving when they can a situation themselves between this conservatism and liberalism so between continued team changed now i think over the last few years this is what's referred to as wolk ism is a lot of this is a liberal idealist now decoupling completely from conservatism i mean. now refuting often family values people oh do you want to be defined by gender it's that you know that there are radical secularists and you have the multiculturalism instead of having a common cultural a form that everyone belongs to so it's all i think there's

a lot of unraveling going on between the allens we had before so i think more often now in use our russian liberals looked worse the west that thinking well we will in the west between you know in 1000 fifties and 1000 a day really we don't know what this is about this is not what we want for russia and again i think it possibly can be positive because you know liberals do need there are presentation program presentation in russia aslan's all is represented as being this in over a suspicious group you know possibly more loyalty to the west to russia. that's what it was in so many limits from western liberalism liberalism could have a better future in russia. that's. brings up a great point and it's going to be my next question in russian liberals are doing it more hermetically with you know with russians it raw material instead of looking for a reference i think for the lines about many liberals i know does not exist anymore in the west they never so we're working with your raw material here is at last

well i'm afraid the huge majority of all the people who are old liberals by western media they are financially dependent on the west on something sources inside russia then i'm going to change that's why 90 percent of all of their reactions to become offside tickle inside the numeral come we're very negative and most of them are just you know he sold out propulsion that's the only explanation they can have right. of course the thinking neighbor also and the thinking people are not yet decided which side to join they are reading this now observing this and i think in somewhat general trends you know i think it's not only russia it's eastern europe in general you know when even france even bradley you know when poland to hungary or the check in bosnia which used to be talks alike and then when they joined the last when they joined the european union they kind of a very different image on what they were going to see and participate in the than

what they want and i think it's an interest in i think the rise of a western sentiment in paul and maybe a very good point in fighting and i'm sorry point is racism because for me a for example is a kind of compete see for the poles they rolled into it or you complex before the west you know the poles have a huge inferiority complex before 'd the french the british you know they are the civilized people we have to imitate them this is still humiliating mob there is a nation to the east of us that's. so much morris and it means you're all going to need it right out of what i think yes i'm on it well and i want to make our viewers watching us your r.c.c. next.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see if there. were more politicized than ever or more polarized than ever the 21st century when speed is measured in megabytes per 2nd until models almost on their knees in your local shelters and of course using him electronic mail electronic money electronic media infinite possibilities for exchanging information i mean me and my mr a nationalized freedom of speech and social media bends censorship and double standards who should judge what can be said online or something already planned but i want to. turn to the internet audience now totals almost $4.00 bill.