to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest paul robinson in auto where he is a professor in the graduate school of public and international affairs at the university of ottawa and also we have wendy's and he is a professor at the university of south used her norway as well as author of the book russian conservatism and here in moscow we have to meet bob that she's a political analyst and editor at you know smee internet media project originally cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok i was going to call 1st. in light of my introduction paul i'll ask the big question that i'm sure there's no easy answer but given that you're all everyone on our panel here is an expert in russia. are russian liberals following out of love with the west because if they are all i can say is it's about time go

ahead paul i say got started sort of yes and no but they remain committed to it an ideal of the west some sort of fantasy of the less they have which is so the west as it was until fairly recently but you do see a number of. now criticizing the sort of political correctness the west and the sort of modern world co-chairing council culture and so on interestingly in the process they end up sounding extraordinarily like you know consider different far rights people like exam to do good and some of the things that's of being said later could have come straight out of his mouth what's more significant is that coming out of the liberal catholic friend is a rather more shocking because as he said you know support of the west is very much the russian liberalism about it it's all very very closely associated historically with westernization and this idea that we should become a normal i.e. western country so when people start criticizing the west from. in the liberal

county. an interesting idea logical shift you know plan but it also is happening in international relations we had just a burrell the high representative for form of policy for the e.u. he was in moscow and that turned into a real fiasco because again lecturing about values about western values and that russia needs essentially big you know paraphrasing here and between the lines that you know russia has to learn oh oh bester in ways for it to be genuine legitimate partner of the west in this case particularly the european union your take. they're all i going to liberalism consistent some very good ideas about the central role of the individual which shareholdings obviously to service a role in society the point i was making was that the really international system contra would be the couples from power politics and in a sense that a liberal international system in europe effectively meant that we would keep some of this block all it takes and also making russia responsible for its own exclusion

by not living up to the west ideals and also to some extent 3 reshaping the relations so again the e.u. nato they tend to conceptualize some southwest's you know socializing agents they are the teachers the liberalism in russia student so under this format you have you know what's referred a sovereign equality and indeed we don't under this format we don't really discuss russian policy since to discuss their behavior so again it's are going to approach and you know so we are closer aim to reward or punish russian behavior until they align along with ours which is a very strange way of looking at competing national interests so i think that this is what's russia is now also rejecting and also kind of a message about a lot of too that's you know we we we can discuss we should you know set up a magic format for partnership but if you say liberalism means that the west can interfere in our affairs but we counter interfere into western affairs then this is

not a tolerable and not a tenable format for international corporation and i think jim you know this is where the tensions are focused let me go to d.m. here in moscow you're in the think a bit here vienna i mean where did this conversation income coming out of bastions of liberal publications and in and what not because me is addressing what western woke ism as i said in my introduction you know questioning the family question and patriotism while a lot. russian liberals are very disparaging of their own country for even for even these that these ideas coming out of the west now are quite frightening because i suppose and you guys can all tell me that that's not part of their definition of what a russian liberal is. wow i think you know that on the stand what a shock russian numerals had more than a week ago when the construction boom off that infamous theater director obvious

yes call him in no way as yet that you know and let me make such a comparison i remember my would friend and a great specialist from russia and a gold kragen you know when gorbachev started making his 1st statements and the west was very disparaging about them saying oh this is just a smokescreen and it won't take it in order to explain to them the gorbachev was serious you said imagine a pope saying to the people or to he has come to know so that the going doesn't exist this is the same impression that the soviets had when or much else thought at that making his speeches now the whole of it is the most cruel west that has been the most protest and the most and they traditional theater direct that you know russia so when he started to criticize the west it was like the 7 saying that the ghost exists i saw him you know this was the same impression that trashes had when they read that call and if it had come from to get off from some but you want to

crush an author it will not make a sensation but but the more ease the warst you know he is the more sed. people go into the barrel but in russia op you know they're the most elitist the most disparaging all of their own people kind of political a trend so when but almost said guys the west does not treat you have that people do known seeing every free thought in the social natural acts you have pressure from the state and not only from the state that was there. you know and the and i think that it was very important that the russians are starting to review who they are traditional views on the west and on themselves and. sound it out but he well in his article but speaking about this visit by mr borrero you know i watched 3 times you know these press conference where we bora was lambasted you know.

when he returned you know into it to the west and i couldn't find anything impolite you know or humiliation. from our foreign minister lavrov even though all the western press all the european newspapers all the american jews because they all wrote oh this is unacceptable this was such a humiliation well i just said that the e.u. was an unreliable partner well if you have sanctions you know coming without and then for 5 years of course it's not their elavil partner but when mr biden said if you any a days ago when he opened the insult that the russian president who what he meant when he didn't even call him president general biden was addressing base munich conference and he said the following let me just you know quote him. the kremlin is born in and present individual states it's a me starting to mine allah do you all christian. who are generous trying to convince the won't that our government ease ask as they are all war well now we see

that definitely it is wars right because what we have seen from you know from mr biden himself and from which he's team is just outrageous you know the i think all basement agree unfortunately the russia gate hoax is led into foreign policy something that i'm worried about it's actually you know well let me go back to the essent in your article that. russian liberalism can be very illiberal what do you mean by that because i think one of the problems that arose. some of our viewers will have is that we have these ideas of conservatism and liberalism but they have different meanings a different place you know as an update and they're not watertight with tight categories i think we tend to sort of think of liberals conservatives socialist fascist as entirely separate things but then not by a overlock name to mingle you can be either bro party socialist party conservative pot

a communist i mean it neat nice things can mix up in any number of ways and i think we should be surprised that that's true and the russian context but what we certainly seen in the past few years is that while not the identity politics of western liberalism is not very popular among russian liberals and i mean the most often. the my just mentioned as one example but in the same nice paper he wrote for just a few months there is no article by a woman called yulia latina which was very similarly outspoken denouncing what she called wolk socialists who she denounced as a bunch of loses. and use and quite inflammatory language about black lives matter we saw also by the us why fix any assumption that famous socialite and one time presidential candidate was used to be the face of audi and russia was fired after

making what some people said was a somewhat racist tweet under a number of other races comments which appeared to come out a liberal countering the. movement. on the language i don't know if you know it's when you're happy degree it when you agree that. racism and bigotry isn't one of the hallmarks of russian liberalism is something that i've been telling people for years i mean the west likes to fixate on mr no bonnie but you can go to you tube and you can see what he what he thinks of migrant workers from the south i mean back kind of language in england. move over to. glen here that kind of language would get you canceled in the united states and pretty damn fast ok i mean this is there's a misperception in the west of what liberalism is and the right is in russia go ahead let. oh. well i guess the problem and often why is that the ethnic component they did doesn't always come up in the west as much as it does in

russia what is the basic i.p.a. there after the colossal soviet union i guess many liberal saw it us as yet a stronger ethno cultural core that it is a democracy or that. the liberals who want to democracy that that day at their most effectively us it was present in democracies only link every must decide they are yet an ethnic nationalism too liberal democratic ideas so i guess i wasn't. dismissed but it's also important to see why russia has been about this trust historically tour cities to tourist liberalism because often it's with some other good reasons oh i'm going to set aside my commission in the article us oil the us. the liberals so yeah often they have linked liberal ideals directly to wit loyal loyalty towards western powers now this is a long long history i mean you can go back today early 18th century with you know

if you're the great 20 want to. push for his liberal ideas and western i see your desire as an actual cultural revolution so remaking the country so he will see us or treasonist worse service again he saw this in the early 19th century a smoldering been the only course and sitting french revolution and you see it also now with only 6. to say some cold color revolutions and they took specialists and. yet this is something that should be welcomed. again it's a very. it can be defined this illiberal is some way and illiberal so see their goal asif actively toppling the government through violent means to take a journey with this idea that only we're going to go to a short break and out about your book in your discussion on the right. this is depression liberalism saved.

by the pandemic no certainly no borders and is blind to nationalities. as americans we don't come with the we don't look like seeing the whole world peace to be. people. judging. commentary classes. we can do better we should know. everyone is contributing to each of our own way but we also know that this crisis not go on forever the challenges create the response has been masked so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still

haven't healed there were. the times when. because for me from a go to negotiate a market economy suppose. me in the present us as me know what i was and that's important to. thousands of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption. want to use the other for feaster my own role but as a fellow mentor to this day mothers still search for grown children while looking in hope for their parents. welcome back to cross where all things are considered i'm not remind you we're discussing the crisis of russian liberalism.

ok let's go back to in moscow here glenn was alluding to before we went to the break here you know i've lived in this in your country for over 2 decades and it's for me that it's so astounding how liberals are so disadvantaged and disparage their own country and idealize a west that does not exist maybe never ever existed here and then maybe we're getting to some point of inflection here i don't know but to me it would be it would be very difficult for upper russian liberals to start reassessing their role in their cultural role because they think of themselves as like the cultural intelligentsia so that they the best of the best that russia can provide and the best of the best are usually disparaging of their own culture in their own people go ahead oh well it's true they feel history you will see. log off see moment things happen in the 19th century usually you know i agree with glen ross on

viewed with suspicion in russia for 2 reasons you know the main reason is because usually they were pretty assessed over who should show liberal swung in fabry in 1007 deal and then they basically surrendered oh it to an extremist group which has ruled russia for 70 years after that you know by flipper us themselves had a very interesting evolution in the 19th century they began as people who were more or less you know loyal to russian people you know a but also idealized in the west people like child die off you know but later you know when the russian liberal saw the west if you're in for example an exam to get some you know parents and she's she's name is pronounced in english she suddenly became very critical of the west when he knew that you know he's sad you wrote that in russia you have a policeman next to you in england you how policeman inside every person you know daily and he marked her what distinct and what is indecent you know so in fact

there are some in these ways and what predict at the social networks and he just saw them inside society inside the western us themselves. so then is quite right on that one but yes i think that basically if we look at how that is all going to play allat in general you know when sergei lavrov all foreign ministers sad if you days ago that if they e.u. imposes sanctions against our strategic sect us where we're in to put on hold our relationship with the you just 2 or 3 years ago it would be a scandal you know in 2011 this would be a huge scandal you know all the liberals or even that mordred to position would say oh you know he is you know disconnect an os from europe oh oh how awful now it is view. it was accepted actually by society as a normal diplomatic move i think that of course our own doesn't want to break up

with overly asians with the e.u. but he wants to warm up in advance so that certain better things don't happen if i can make such a comparison you know the 1st of all who all started because the british government did not make it clear because of germans that if the war starts we will support fronts so our office saying in that message if you impose sanctions don't expect it to be on onset you know as as it happened many times before we're going to you know patrol ations on hold precisely because we don't want you to ration relations when doing that right now i'm saying that right now so this is a message that the majority and a huge majority get all russian public continued supports now you know the state now if you count those times over the many many years that i've known you so would you agree with me when i say love the roster t.j. patience has come to an end. well i think he's patience evangelists and i will never i think i will never be able that it came to an end i think

a lot of people thought it was i mean prize they should you know he just said that you know that in an interview with a russian journalist i think with the author of who now have improvise ations even when he is very and i mean that's why i didn't always call you if i take it so seriously because i you know i've met him a number of times he doesn't speak off the cuff easily very very focused on his message or you know call one of the things that when i studied european liberalism a lot and in when in talking with russian liberals you know i think for us we think about in terms of ideas the role of the individual in society express freedom of expression. freedom of assembly freedom to protest the lot of the liberals i've come across it's more of an i a european identity it's less about ideals and ideas then a. being transformed into something that you see at a distance you know that i want to be light back but it has nothing to do with

really values per se my wrong about that go ahead because it brings in the ethnic element here that i find so. disgusting sometimes when i when i hear references to people of other races go ahead i think you shouldn't throw the baby out with the water there i agree sure he could because he because you see some aspects of liberalism he dislike to incite and liberalism is bad because you know i would describe myself as a professor. and i think actually most people even those who strongly criticized liberalism actually are she fighting liberal and some be affected by you wouldn't want to see it go away i mean it's interesting for instance he took a side a lot of rough you have not spoke up years ago and the magazine russian global affairs attacking west and liberalism but he did so entirely from the perspective of western liberalism basically saying you know the west says a democratic but not democratic right so something to be locatable habit and i

think as as glenn suggested liberalism takes different forms in different countries right and in the form it's taken in russia has very much as you say has had this association to a large degree and it is i would say it's identical a western i say sion because you can get you can be a westernized and a conservative nonetheless has been a very strong historical connection between this idea of western isn't all of making russia into and more western society. being a home market liberalism and it's associated with lot of no fuss or as a local positivism which is the idea of it as a sort of. almost historically determined paf right but. everyone's going to end up in the same pot and the end of that power is the west because the west is the most advanced society so therefore you know ultimately valve is where we're all going and we shouldn't stop it and the reason that we're not might fit into the ethno nationalism is because. people from say france and central asia who be the main

immigrant group in russia are seen as being you know further back on that process all of historical development and therefore if you have lost all immigration from central asia you will hold back russia's progress because these people just not i don't sound. it's not what i'm saying i'm trying to explain what i believe a word they say but in this understanding. you know these people for centuries on more back could bake they don't have the advanced western liberal values that we do every take to suspicious of islam in that regard i'm baffled we shouldn't have them hypocrites i hope back but the violence of the monks and i think this is something about the sank and survival there is you know an association back for of after nationalism of liberalism which actually historically has been quite common you know glenda and it again you know it's when we look at it acutely ology about modernization and that's always associated with westernizing here but i think you

know the. debate that's happening or starting to happen in russia is that people are mistaking a westernization modernization with post modernism and i think that's words are charged turning into a train wreck for a lot of russian liberals go ahead. yeah well at it again a russian liberalism has seemingly is undergoing some change but is also due to in my opinion you do changes a bit in the liberalism in the west i mean you can this walk you some you can see it as being very radical liberalism which tends to liberate itself from all former structures because. if you like western society has traditionally been defined by both a balance between conservative values and liberal values so conservatism tends to look at the collective identity of the group through religion culture that traditions of family values and this tends to exist with liberalism which is putting their liberal laws are the individual at the center now is there some

contradictions but they also tend to balance each other successes so this is usually when you see that society is thriving when they can a situation themselves between this conservatism and liberalism so between continued team changed now i think over the last few years this is what's referred to as wolk ism is a lot of this is a liberal idealist now and the coupling completely from conservatism i mean. now refuting often family values people oh do you want to be defined by gender it's you know very radical secularism you have the multiculturalism instead of having a common cultural a form that everyone belongs to so it's all i think there's a lot of unraveling going on between the allens we had before so i think more often now in use our russian liberals look towards their west and thinking well we were under the west between you know in 1950 s. and 1000 a.d. really we don't know what this is about this is not what we want for russia so and again i think it possibly can be positive because you know liberals do need there are presentation program presentation in russia aslan's all is represented as being

this you know a suspicious group you know possibly more loyalty to the west to russia itself i think that's what it was in so many compliments from western liberalism liberalism could have a better future in russia. that's glen brings up a great point it's going to be my next question in russian liberals are doing it more hermetically with you know with russians raw material instead of looking for a reference i think for the lines above many liberals i know does not exist anymore in the west they never so we're working with your raw material here is at last well i'm afraid the huge majority of all the people who are old liberals by western media they are financially dependent on the west on something sources inside russia then i'm going to change that's why 90 percent of all of their reactions to become offside to kl inside the new broker where very next and most of them are just you

know he sold out of proportion that's the only explanation they can have right. of course the thinking numerals and the thinking people are not yet decided which side to join they are reading this now observing this and i think in somewhat general trends you know i think it's not only russia it's eastern europe in general you know when even france even bradley you know when poland to hungary or the czech in bosnia which used to be talk so i can then when they joined the last when they joined the european union they had a very different image on what they were going to see and participate in the than what they want and i think it's an interest in i think the rise of anti western sentiment in poor and maybe a very good point in fighting and i'm sorry point is racism because for me a for example is a kind of competing station for the poles they rolled into before the west you know

the poles have a huge inferiority complex before the french the british you know they are the civilised people we have to imitate them this is so humiliating bottom there is an asian to the east a wasp that's. so much morris made you need it right out of me when i think he has an honor well slow and it must i want to make our viewers watching us your r.c.c. annex a member. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe.

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