i got a plan but i want. us to come down to the internet audience now totals almost 4500000000 almost all of them are active social network users but one wrong move from the pages deleted digital. don't exist anymore. mom who runs the show on the web how can anyone stand up to the tech giants a fee from the heads of state face the threat of being bent is there any limits to hold on to a virtual pal. the postal before all of these were before i post my movies but i was a throwaway. hello

and welcome the crosstalk are all things are considered i'm peter it's an article of faith russian liberals do not like a lot of your putin up until now russian liberals have been chanted with the western so-called western values western ideological wolk ism is changing this woke ism disparages tradition patriotism the family and even logic like mad for russian liberals this appears to be going too far are russian liberals falling out of love with the west. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest paul robinson in auto where he is a professor in the graduate school of public and international affairs at the university of on what is also we have wendy's and he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway is. as well as author of the

book russian conservatism and here in moscow we have to meet bob that she's a political analyst and editor and you know smee internet media project originally cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok i was going to call 1st. in light of my introduction paul i'll ask the big question that i'm sure there's no easy answer but given that you're all everyone on our panel here is an expert in russia. are russian liberals falling out of love with the west because if they are all i can say is it's about time go ahead paul i say got started sort of yes and no but they remain committed to it an ideal of the west some sort of fantasy of the less they have which is so the west as it was until fairly recently but you do see a number of. now criticizing the sort of political correctness the west and the sort of coach and council culture and so on interestingly in the process they end

up sounding extraordinarily like you know can so different. people like exam to do good and some of the things that should being said like that could have come straight out of his mouth what's more significant is that coming out of the liberal camp which friend is of rather more shocking because as he said you know support of the west is very much a russian liberalism about it it's all very very closely associated historically with westernization and this idea that we should become a normal i.e. western country so when people start criticizing the west from within the liberal count. an interesting idea logical shift you know blame but it also is happening in international relations we have and i just have burrell the high representative for form of policy for the e.u. he was in moscow and that turned into a real fiasco because again lecturing about values about western values and that russia needs essentially you know paraphrasing here in between the lines that you know russia has to learn oh oh bester new ways for it to be

a genuine legitimate partner of the west in this case particularly the european union your take. they're all i going to liberalism consistent some very good ideas about the central role of the individual which shareholders obviously disservice a role in society the point i was making was that the liberal international system contra would be couples from power politics and sense that a liberal international system in europe effectively meant that we would keep some of this block all it takes and also making russia responsible for its own exclusion by not living up to the west ideals and also to some extent 3 reshaping the relations so again the e.u. nato they tend to conceptualize some softness you know socializing agents they are the teacher some liberalism in russia student so under this format you have you know what for for a sovereign equality and indeed we don't under this format we don't really discuss russian policies instead we discuss their behavior so again these are going to

approach and you know so we are closer aim to reward or punish russian behavior until they align along with ours which is a very strange way of looking at competing national interests so i think that this is what's russia is now also rejecting and that was kind of the message of a lot of 2 that you know we we can discuss we should you know set up a pragmatic format for partnership but if you say liberalism means that the west can interfere in our affairs but we counter interfere into western affairs then this is not a tolerable and not a tenable formats for international corporation and i think jim you know this is where the tensions are focused let me go to jamie here in moscow you're in the think a bit here vienna i mean where did this conversation income coming out of bastions of liberal publications and in and what not because me this

addressing western you woke ism as i said in my introduction you know questioning the family question and patriotism while a lot. russian liberals are very disparaging of their own country for even for even these that these ideas coming out of the west now are quite frightening because i suppose and you guys can all tell me that that's not part of their definition of what a russian liberal is. well i think you know that on the stand what a shock russia new bros had more than a week ago when the construction boom off that infamous theater director obvious yes call him in no way as yet that you know and let me make such a comparison i remember him i would friend to and a great specialist from russia and a goat again you know when gorbachev started making his 1st statements and the west was very disparaging about them saying oh this is just a smokescreen and it won't take it in order to explain to them that gorbachev was

serious you said imagine a pope saying to the people or to he has come to know so that the going doesn't exist this is the same impression that the soviets had when or much else thought at that making his speech just now the whole of it is the most cruel west that has been the most protest and the most and they traditional theater direct that you know russia so when he started to criticize the west it was like the 7 saying that the ghost exists i saw him you know this was the same impression that trashes had when they read that call and if it had come from to get off from some but you want to crush an author it will not make a sensation but but the whole of ease the warst you know he is the more sed. people go into the barrel but in russian he barrels op you know they're the most elitist the most disparaging all of their own people kind of political a trend so when but almost said guys the west does not treat you have that people

do you know and seeing every free thought in the social natural acts you have pressure from the state and not only from the state that was. you know and and i think that it was very important that the russians are starting to review who they are traditional views on the west and on themselves and sound it out but he well in his article but speaking about this visit by mr borrero you know i watched 3 times you know these press conference where we bora was lambasted you know. when he returned you know to to the west and i couldn't find anything impolite you know or humiliation. from our foreign minister lavrov even though all the western press all the european newspapers all the american jews because they all wrote oh this is unacceptable this was such a humiliation well i just said that the e.u. was not a reliable partner well if you have sanctions you know coming without and then for

5 years of course it's not their elavil partner but when mr biden said if you any a days ago when he opened the insult that the russian president who what he meant when he didn't even call him president general biden was addressing base munich conference and he said the following let me just you know quote him. the kremlin is born in and threaten individual states it's a me starting to mine allah do you all christian. who are generous trying to convince the won't that our government ease ask as they are all war well now we see that definitely it is wars right because what we have seen from you know from mr biden himself and from with he's team is just outrageous you know the i think all obese but agree unfortunately the russia gate hoax is led into foreign policy something that i'm worried about it's actually you know well let me go back to the

essent in your article that they've written russian liberalism can be very illiberal what do you mean by that because i think one of the problems that. some of our viewers will have is that we have these ideas of conservatism liberals have but they have different meanings a different place you know as an update and they're not watertight with tight categories i think we tend to sort of think of liberals conservatives socialist fascist as entirely separate things but then not by bay over a lot of name to mingle you can be a party that robot the socialist party conservative party a communist i mean it he sings can mix up in any number of ways and i think we should be surprised that that's true and a russian context but what we certainly seen in the past few years is that. what about the identity politics of western liberalism is not very popular among russian liberals and i mean the most off. the mat just

mentioned as one example but in the same newspaper he wrote for just a few months there is no article by a woman called yulia latina which was very similarly outspoken denouncing what she called wolk socialists who she denounced as a bunch of loses. and use and quite inflammatory language about black lives matter we saw also by the us why fix any assumption that famous socialite and one time presidential candidate was used to be the face of audi and russia was fired after making what some people said was a somewhat racist tweet under a number of racist comments which appeared to come out a liberal countering the. movement on the ladders i don't know if you know it's when you're happy degree when you agree that. racism and bigotry isn't one of the hallmarks of russian liberalism is something that i've been telling people for years i mean the west likes to fixate on mr know bali but you can go to you tube

and you can see what he what he thinks of migrant workers from the south i mean back kind of language i mean we need. move over to. glen here that kind of language would get you canceled in the united states and pretty damn fast ok i mean this is there's a misperception in the west of what liberalism is and the right is in russia go ahead let. oh. well i guess the problem and often why is that the ethnic component they did doesn't always come up in the west as much as it does in russia what is the basic i.p.a. there after the colossal soviet union i guess many liberal saw it us as yet a stronger ethno cultural core that it is a democracy or that. the liberals who want to democracy that that. at their most effectively us it was present in democracies only link every must decide they are yet ethnic nationalism to liberal democratic ideas so i guess i wasn't.

dismissed but it is also important to see why russia has been about this trust historically tour cities to tourists at liberalism because often it's with some other good reasons oh i'm going to set aside my commission and article a soileau us. liberals so yeah often they have linked liberal ideals directly to wit loyal loyalty towards western powers now this is a long long history i mean you can go back today early 18th century with you know here the great 20 want to. push for his liberal ideas and western i see europe is also actual cultural revolution so remaking the country so he will see us or treasonist worse service again he saw this in the early 19th century a smoldering been the only course and sitting french revolution and you see it also now with only 6. to say some cold color revolutions and they took specialists and

idea. that this is something that should be welcomed. again it's a very. it can be defined this illiberal is some way and the liberals see their goal ass effectively toppling the government through violent means to continue with this idea yet only we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the price . this is oppression liberalism state. the world is driven by shaped by our own personal those great. dares thinks. we dare to ask.

the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interests or you see in this these techniques is the state devising methods to end to essentially destroy the personality of an individual. by scientific means this is how one doctor's theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation psychological courtroom the cia disseminated within the us intelligence community and worldwide among our allies for the next 30 years then tell the victims say they still live with the consequences today. show seemed wrong. just don't all.

get to stamp out this day to come out ahead and engagement because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm not remind you we're discussing the crisis of russian liberalism. ok let's go back to in moscow here glen was alluding to dip into the break here and you know i've lived in this in your country for over 2 decades and it's for me

that it's so astounding how liberals are so disadvantaged and disparage their own country and idealize a west that does not exist maybe never ever existed here and then maybe we're getting to some point of an inflection here i don't know but to me it would be it would be very difficult for russian liberals to start reassessing their role in their cultural role because they think of themselves as like the cultural intelligentsia so that they the best of the best that russia can provide and the best of the best are usually disparaging of their own culture and their own people . oh well it's true they feel history you will see a lot of off seen on things happening in the 19th century usually you know i agree with the glad. you had with suspicion in russia for 2 reasons you know the main reason is because usually they were pretty assessed over who should show numeral swung in february 1017 and then they basically surround

a poet to an extremist group which has ruled russia for 70 years after that you know by people us themselves had a very interesting evolution in the 19th century they began asked people who were more or less you know moyle to russian people you know a but also idealize and the west people like child die off you know bottle a you know when the russian liberal so. so of the west if you're in for example an exam to get some you know or have some s. he s. g.'s name is pronounced in english he suddenly became very critical of the west when he knew that you know he's sad you wrote that in russia you have a policeman next to you in england you have a policeman inside every person you know daily and he knew more of her what to stink and what is indecent you know so in fact there are some in these ways and what predicted the social networks and he just saw them inside society inside the western us themselves. so then is quite right on that one but yes i

think that basically if we look at how that is all going to play allat in general you know when sergei lavrov all foreign ministers sad if you days ago that if they e.u. imposes sanctions against our strategic sect us where we're going to put on hold our relationship with the you just 2 or 3 years ago it would be a scandal you know in 2011 this would be a huge scandal you know all the liberals or even that mordred to position would say oh you know he is you know disconnect onas from europe oh oh how awful now it is viewed it was accepted actually by society as a normal diplomatic move i think that of course our own doesn't want to break up with over relations with the e.u. but he wants to warm up in advance so that certain better things don't happen if i can make such a comparison you know the 1st of all who all started because the british government

did not make it clear to the germans that if the war starts we will support from so our office sending that message if you impose sanctions don't expect it to be on onset you know as as it happened many times before we're going to you know porch relations on hold precisely because we don't want you to ration relations when doing that right now i'm saying that right now so this is a message that the majority of hugh. majority care all russian computing and supports now you know the state not for you when i asked you how it was times over the many many years that i've known you so would you agree with me when i say love for austria t.j. patients it's come to an end. well i think he's patience easier and less and i will never i think i will never be able that it came to an end i think a lot of people thought it was i mean prices they should you know he just said that you know in an interview with a russian journalist i think with the author of who not having provides ations human when he's very and i mean that's why i can always call the way that if i take

it so seriously because i you know i've met him a number of times he doesn't speak off the cuff he's very very focused on his message or you know paul one of the things that when i study european liberalism a lot and in when in talking with russian liberals you know i think for us we think about in terms of ideas the role of the individual in society express freedom of expression. freedom of assembly freedom to protest here but the lot of the liberals i've come across it's more of an i a european identity it's less about ideals and ideas then a. being transformed into something that you see at a distance you know that i want to be light bad but it has nothing to do with really values per se my wrong about that go ahead because it brings in the ethnic element here that i find so. disgusting sometimes when i when i hear references to

people of other races go ahead i think you shouldn't throw the baby out with the water there i agree cheri they should because he because he saw aspects of liberalism he disliked and say that liberalism is bad because you know i would describe myself as a professor. and i think actually most people even those who strongly criticized liberalism actually. fairly liberal and some of the affected by. you wouldn't want to see it go away oh god knows i mean it's interesting for instance he told us of a lot of rough you have not spoke up years ago and the magazine russian global affairs attacking western liberalism that he did so entirely from the perspective of western liberalism basically saying you know the west says a democratic but not democratic right so so i think many below carol have and i think as as glenn suggested liberalism takes different forms in different countries right and in the form it's taken in russia has very much as you say has had this association to a large degree and it is i would say it's identical

a western i say sion because you can get you can be westernized and a conservative nonetheless has been a very strong historical connection between this idea of western isn't all of making russia into and more western society. being a home market liberalism and it's associated with lot of you know force or as a local positivism which is the idea of it as a sort of almost historically determined paf right but. everyone's going to end up in the same pot and the end of that path is the west because the west is the most advanced society so therefore you know ultimately valve is where we're all going and we shouldn't stop it and the reason that we're not might fit into the ethno nationalism is because. people from say france and central asia who be the main immigrant group in russia seen as they you know further back on that process all of historical development and therefore if you have lost all immigration from central asia you will hold back russia's progress because these people just not i don't

sound. as not what i'm saying i'm trying to explain well no it's a let's i hate it when this understanding. you know these people who are central asia or back could bank they don't have the advanced western liberal values that we do every take to suspicious of islam in that regard i'm baffled we shouldn't have them hypocrites i hope back but the violence of the monks and i think this was something about a plan that sank and survival there is you know an association back for after nationalism of liberalism which actually historically has been quite common you know glenda and it in you know it's when we look at it. in the ology about modernization and that's always associated with westernizing here but i think you know the. debate that's happening here starting to happen in russia is that people are mistaking westernization modernization with post modernism and i think that's

word search starts turning into a train wreck for a lot of russian liberals go ahead. yeah well again a russian liberalism has seemingly is undergoing some change but is also due to in my opinion you do changes a bit in the liberalism in the west i mean you can this walk you some you can see it as being very radical liberalism which tends to liberate itself from all former structures because. if you like western society has traditionally been defined by both a balance between conservative values and liberal values so conservative sometimes to look at the collective identity of the group through religion culture that tradition is a family values and this tends to exist with liberalism which is putting their liberal laws are the individual at the center now is there some contradictions but they also tend to balance each other successes so this is usually when you see that society is thriving when they can a situation themselves between this conservatism and liberalism so between continued team changed now i think over the last few years this is what's referred

to as wolk ism is a lot of this is a liberal idealist now decoupling completely from conservatism i mean. now refuting often family values people oh do you want to be defined by gender it's that you know that there are radical secularism you have the multiculturalism instead of having a common cultural from that everyone belongs to so it's all i think there's a lot of unraveling going on between the allens we had before so i think more often now in use our russian liberals looked worse the west and thinking well we were under the west between you know in 1950 s. and 1000 a.d. really we don't know what this is about this is not what we want for russia and again i think it possibly can be positive because you know liberals do need there are presentation program presentation in russia assigns oliseh are sent us being this you know a suspicious group you know possibly more loyalty to the west to russia you know that's a good that's what it was in so many limits from western liberalism liberalism

could have a better future in russia. glenn brings up a great point and it's going to be my next question in russian liberals are doing it more hermetically with you know with russians raw material instead of looking for a reference i think to the lines about many liberals i know does not exist anymore in the west they never so we're working with your raw material here is at last well i'm afraid the huge majority of all the people who are old liberals by western media they are financially dependent on the west on something sources inside russia then i'm going to change that's why 90 percent of all of their reactions to become offside to kl inside the liberal camp where very negative and most of them are just you know he sold out proportion that's the only explanation they can have right. of course the thinking numerals and the thinking people are not yet decided which side

to join they are reading this now observing this and i think in some more general trends you know i think it's not only russia it's eastern europe in general you know when even france even bradley you know when poland to hungary or the czech in bosnia which used to be talk so i can then when they joined the last when they joined the european union they kind of very different image on what they were going to see and participate in the than what they want and i think it's an interest in i think that there are. a western sentiment in poor and maybe a very good point in fighting and i'm sorry imported racism because for me a for example is a kind of competing c. for the poles they rolled into or you complex before the west you know the poles have a huge inferiority complex before 'd the french the british you know they are the civilised people we have to imitate them this is so humiliating bottom there is an

asian to the east a wasp that's. much morris made you need it right out of me when i think yes and. i want to take our viewers watching us here are.

the headlines in our c.d.u. demands the free movement of people and goods within member states urging 6 countries to relax their covert restriction measures before legal steps are taken also to come half a 1000000 american deaths and counting yet no mass vaccination in sight but despite the morbid milestone joe biden escapes the criticism previously leveled at donald trump's handling of the crisis and we hear from a canadian man he received hundreds of death threats and felt forced to move to after testing positive because of 19. good evening just gone 7 in moscow you watching.