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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on putin it's an article of faith russian liberals do not like. up until now russian liberals have been enchanted with the western so-called western values western ideological wolk ism is changing this woke ism disparages tradition patriotism the family and even launching like mad russian liberals this appears to be going too far are russian liberals falling out of love with the west.

to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest paul robinson in ottawa he's a professor in the graduate school of public and international affairs. the university of only what it also we have wendy's and he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the book russian conservatism and here in moscow we have to meet bob that she's a political analyst and editor and you know smee internet media project originally cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it i was going to call 1st. in light of my introduction paul i'll ask the big question that i'm sure there's no easy answer but given that you're all everyone on our panel here is an expert in russia. are russian liberals falling out of love with the west because if they are all i can say is it's about time go ahead paul i say got started sort of yes and no but they remain committed to it an ideal

of the west some sort of fantasy of the less they have which is so the west as it was until fairly recently but you do see a number of. now criticizing the sort of political correctness the west and the sort of modern well co-chairing council culture and so on interestingly in the process they end up sounding extraordinarily like you know consider different far rights people like exam to do good and some of the things that should being said like that could have come straight out of his mouth what's more significant is that coming out of the liberal camp which friend is a problem or shocking because as he said you know support of the west is very much a russian liberalism about it it's all very very closely associated historically with westernization and this idea that we should become a normal i.e. western country so when people start criticizing the west from within the liberal count. an interesting idea logical shift you know blame but it also is happening in international relations we have and i just have burrell the high representative for

form of policy for the e.u. he was in moscow and that turned into a real fiasco because again lecturing about values. about western values and that russia needs essentially big you know paraphrasing here in between the lines that you know russia has to learn oh oh bester new ways for it to be genuine legitimate partner of the west in this case particularly the european union your take. they're all i am going to liberalism consistent some very good ideas about the central role of the individual we share homes obviously the service is a role in society the point i was making was that the really international system contra would be the couples from power politics and sense that a liberal international system in europe effectively meant that we would keep some of this block all it takes and also making russia responsible for its own exclusion by not living up to the west ideal and also it was a mix in 3 reshaping the relations so again the e.u.

nato they tend to conceptualize them southwest's you know socializing agents they are the teachers the liberalism in russia student so under this format you have you know what's referred to sovereign inequality and indeed we don't under this format we don't really discuss russian policy since to discuss their behavior so again it's certainly going to approach and you know so we are closer aim to reward or punish russian behavior until they align along with ours which is a very strange way of looking at competing national interests so i think that this is what's russia is now also rejecting and also kind of a message about a lot of too that's you know we we we can discuss we should you know set up a pragmatic format for partnerships but if you still liberalism means that the west can interfere in our affairs but we can't are interfering to western affairs then this is not a tolerable and not a tenable format for international cooperation and i think jim you know this is where the tensions are focused let me go to d.m.

here in moscow you're in the think a bit here vienna i mean where did this conversation income coming out of bastions of liberal publications and in and what not because me this addressing what western you woke ism as i said in my introduction we know questioning the family question and patriotism while a lot. russian liberals are very disparaging of their own country for even for even these that these ideas coming out of the west now are quite frightening because i suppose and you guys can all tell me that that's not part of their definition of what a russian liberal is. well i think you know that on the stand what a shock russian numerals had more than a week ago when the construction boom off that infamous theater director obvious yes call him in no way as yet that you know and let me make such

a comparison i remember him i would friend to and a great specialist from russia and a gold tag and you know when gorbachev started making he is 1st statements and the west was very disparaging about them saying oh this is just a smokescreen and it won't take it in order to explain to them that gorbachev was serious you said you magine a pope saying to the people or to he has come to know so that the going doesn't exist this is the same impression that the soviets had when or much else thought at that making his speeches now the whole of it is the most pro western presby and the most protest and the most and they traditional theater direct that you know russia so when he started to criticize the west it was like the satin saying that the ghost exists i saw him you know this was the same impression that trashes had when they read that call and if it had come from to get off from some but you want to crush an author it will not make a sensation but but the more ease the warst you know he is the more sed. people go

into liberal but in russian he barrels op you know they're the most elitist the most disparaging all their own people kind of political a trend so when by the middle of said guys the west does not treat you have that people do you know and seeing every free thought in the social natural acts you have pressure from the state and not only from the state that was. you know and and i think that it was very important that the russians are starting to review their traditional views on the west and on themselves and sound it out but he well in his article but speaking about this visit by mr borrero you know i watched 3 times you know these press conferences where we bora was lambasted you know. when he returned you know into it to the west and i couldn't find anything impolite you know or humiliation. from our foreign minister lavrov even though all the

western press all the european newspapers all the american jews because they all wrote oh this is unacceptable this was such a humiliation well i just said that the e.u. was not a reliable partner well if you have sanctions you know coming without and then for 5 years of course it's not their elavil partner but when mr biden said if junia days ago when he opened the insult that the russian president who what he meant when he didn't even call him president general biden was addressing base munich conference and he said the following let me just you know quote him. the kremlin is born in and present individual states it's a me starting to mine allah do you all christian. who are generous trying to convince the won't that our government ease ask as they were all war well now we see that definitely it is wars right because what we have seen from you know from

mr biden himself and from with he's team is just outrageous you know the i think all basement agree unfortunately the russia gate hoax is led into foreign policy something that i'm worried about it's actually you know well let me go back to the essent in your article that they've written russian liberalism can be very illiberal what do you mean by that because i think one of the problems that. some of our viewers will have is that we have these ideas of conservatism liberalism but they have different meanings in different places you know as an update and they're not watertight with tight categories i think we tend to sort of think of liberals conservatives socialist fascist as entirely separate things but then not by bay over a lot of name to mingle you can be a party that broke out a socialist party conservative pot a communist i mean the nice things can mix up in any number of ways and i think we shouldn't be surprised that that's true and

a russian context but what we certainly seen in the past few years is that what about the identity politics of western liberalism is not very popular among russian liberals and i mean the most often. the i'm a just mentioned as one example but in the same nice paper he wrote for just a few months there is no article by a woman called yulia latina which was very similarly outspoken denouncing what she called wolk socialists who she denounced as a bunch of loses. and use some quite inflammatory language about butterflies matzoh we saw also by the us why fix any assumption that famous socialite and one time presidential candidate was used to be the face of audi and russia was fired after making what some people said was a somewhat racist tweet under a number of racist comments which appeared to come out a liberal countering the. movement on the language i don't know if you know it when

you're happy you should read it when you agree that. racism and bigotry isn't one of the hallmarks of russian liberalism is something that i've been telling people for years i mean the west likes to fixate on mr know bali but you can go to you tube and you can see what he what he thinks of migrant workers from the south i mean back kind of language in england. move over to. glen here that kind of language would get you canceled in the united states and pretty damn fast ok i mean this is there's a misperception in the west of what liberalism is and the right is in russia go ahead let. oh. well i guess the problem and often why is that the ethnic component they did doesn't always come up in the west as much as it does in russia what is the basic i.p.a. there after the colossal soviet union i guess many liberal saw it us as yet a stronger ethno cultural core that it is

a democracy or that. the liberals who want to democracy that that. do most effectively to us it was present in democracies only link every must decide they are yet ethnic nationalism too liberal democratic ideas so i guess i wasn't. dismissed but it is also important to see why russia has been about this trust historically tour cities to tourist liberalism because often it's with some other good reasons oh i'm going to set aside my commission an article s.o.s. . the liberals say yeah often they have linked liberal ideals directly to wit loyal loyalty towards western powers now this is a long long history i mean you can go back today early 18th century with you know where the great 20 want to. push for his liberal ideas and western i see europe is

also an actual cultural revolution so remaking the country so he will see us or treasonist worse service again he saw this in the early 19th century a smoldering been the only course and proceeding french revolution and you see it also now with only 6 cultural decision some cold color revolutions and they took specialists and idea. that this is something that should be welcomed. again it's a very. it can be defined this illiberal is some way and illiberal so see their goal ass effectively toppling the government through violent means to take a journey with this idea that only we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the price . this is a brush liberalism save. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't

healed. me from a dog to make coffee to market. or me on the bus at the source me no matter what i understand the single. cells of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption i don't know. that in my own role as a fellow mentor to this day mothers still search for grown children while looking in hope for their birth parents. when a trauma changes us literally it causes a chemical change. and this changes the way our genes function. sometimes for generations.

welcome back to cross all things are considered i'm not remind you we're discussing the prices of russian liberalism. ok let's go back to in moscow here glenn was alluding to that of poland to the break here you know i love lived in this your country for over 2 decades and it is for me that it's. it's so astounding how liberals are so does it catched and disparage their own country and idealize a west that does not exist maybe never ever existed here and maybe we're getting to some point of inflection here i don't know but to me it would be it would be very

difficult for russian liberals to start reassessing their role in their cultural role because they think of themselves as like the cultural intelligentsia so that they the best of the best that russia can provide and the best of the best are usually disparaging of their own culture in their own people go ahead oh well it's true they fuel a key story you will see a lot of off cmon things happening in the 19th century usually you know i agree with glen ross on viewed with suspicion in russia for 2 reasons you know the main reason is because usually they were pretty assessed over who should show liberal swung in the fabry in 1017 and then they basically surround a power to an extremist group which has ruled russia for 70 years after that you know by flavor of themselves had a very interesting evolution in the 19th century they began as people who are more or less you know moyle to russian people you know a but also idealized in the west people like child die off you know bottle laid you

know when the russian liberal saw the west if you're in for example an exam to get some you know or have some as he's name is pronounced in english he suddenly became very critical of the west when he knew that you know he's sad you wrote that in russia you have a policeman next to you in england you have a policeman inside every person you know daily and he mark her what to think and what is indecent you know so in fact there are some in these ways and what predict at the social networks and he just saw them inside society inside the western us themselves. so. len is quite right on that one but yes i think that basically if we look at how that is all going to play allat in general you know when sergei lavrov all foreign ministers sad if you days ago that if they e.u. imposes sanctions against our strategic sect us where we're going to put on hold

our relationship with the you just 2 or 3 years ago it would be a scandal you know in 2011 this would be a huge scandal you know all the liberals or even that mordred to position would say oh you know he is you know disconnect an os from europe oh oh how awful now it is viewed it was accepted actually by society as a normal diplomatic move i think that of course our own doesn't want to break up with overly asians with the e.u. but he wants to warm up in advance so that certain better things don't happen if i can make such a comparison you know the 1st of all who all started because the british government did not make it clear because of germans that if the war starts we will support from so our office sending that message if you impose sanctions don't expect it to be on onset you know as as it happened many times before we're going to you know patrol agents on hold precisely because we don't want you to ration relations when

doing that right now i'm saying that right now so this is a message that the majority in a huge majority get on russian public could be municipal it's not you know the state no if you count those times over the many many years that i've known you so would you agree with me when i say love there are strategic patience is come to an end. well i think he's patience evangelists and i will never i think i will never be able that it came to an end i think a lot of people thought it was an improvised you know he just said it in at in an interview with a russian journalist i think with a lot of you know of having price asians even when he's very and that's why do you always. you know if i take it so seriously because i you know i've met him a number of times he doesn't speak off the cuff easily very very focused on his message or you know paul one of the things that when i study european liberalism a lot and in when in talking with russian liberals you know i think for us we

think about in terms of ideas the role of the individual in society express freedom of expression. freedom of assembly freedom to protest here i think that a lot of the liberals i've come across it's more of an i a european identity it's less about ideals and ideas then a. being transformed into something that you see at a distance you know that i want to be light back but it has nothing to do with really values per se my wrong about that go ahead because it brings in the ethnic element here that you know i find so. disgusting sometimes when i when i hear references to people of other races go ahead i think you shouldn't throw the baby out with the water there i agree sure he could because he because he saw aspects of liberalism he disliked to incite liberalism is bad because you know i would describe myself as a professor. and i think actually most people even those who strongly

criticized liberalism actually are she fighting the girl and some of the affected by you wouldn't want to see it go away i mean it's interesting for instance he took a side a lot of rough you have not spoke up years ago and the magazine russian global affairs attacking west and liberalism that he did so entirely from the perspective of western liberalism basically saying you know the west says a democratic but not democratic right so something to be locatable have and i think as a glance suggests that liberalism takes different forms in different countries right and in the form it's taken in russia has very much as you say has had this association to a large degree and it is i would say it's identical a western i say sion because you can get. you can be a westernized and a conservative nonetheless has been a very strong historical connection between this idea of western isn't all of making russia into and more western society. being a home market liberalism and it's associated with lot of you know false as a local positivism which is the idea that there's

a sort of almost historically determined paf right but. everyone's going to end up in the same pot and the end of that power is the west because the west is the most advanced society so therefore you know ultimately valley is where we're all going and we shouldn't stop it and the reason that we're not might fit into the ethno nationalism is because. people from say france and central asia who be the main immigrant group in russia are seen as they you know further back on that process all of historical development and therefore if you have lost all immigration from central asia you will hold back russia's progress because these people just not i don't sound used as not what i'm saying i'm trying to explain what i believe a word they say when this understanding you know they were very you know these people for centuries on more back could bake they don't have the advanced western liberal values that we do every take to suspicious of islam in that regard and

baffled we shouldn't have them hypocrites i hope back but the violence of the monks and i think this is something about a plan that sank and survival very clay has been quite common you know glenn didn't have it in you know it's when we look at it. in the ology about modernization and that's always associated with westernizing here but i think you know the. debate that's happening here starting to happen in russia is that people are mistaking a westernization modernization with post modernism and i think that's word search starts turning into a train wreck for a lot of russian liberals go ahead. and there are russian liberalism how it seemingly is undergoing some change but is also due to in my opinion you do changes a bit in the liberalism in the west i mean you can this walk you some you can see it as being very radical liberalism which tends to liberate itself from all former structures because. if you like western society has traditionally been defined by

both a balance between conservative values and liberal values so conservatives and tends to look at the collective identity of the group through religion culture traditions of family values and this tends to exist with liberalism which is putting their liberal laws are the individual at the center now is that there are some contradictions but they also tend to balance each other successes so this is usually when you see that society is thriving when they can a situation themselves between this conservatism and liberalism so between continued team changed now i think over the last few years this is what's referred to as wolk ism is a lot of this is a liberal idealist now at the coupling completely from conservatism i mean. now refuting often family values people oh do you want to be defined by gender it's that you know that there are radical secularists and you have the multiculturalism instead of having a common cultural from the emerald

a long stick so it's all i think there's a lot of unraveling going on between these alums we had before so i think more often now in use our russian liberals look towards the west and thinking well we will in the west between you know in 1000 fifties and 1000 a day really we don't know what this is about this is not what we want for russia so and again i think it possibly can be posted because you know liberals do need their representation or presentation in russia aslan's all is represented as being this you know a suspicious group you know possibly more loyalty to the west to russia itself i think that's what it was in so many to decouple a bit from western liberalism liberalism could have a better future in russia. that's. brings up a great point is going to be my next question in russian liberals are doing it more hermetically with you know with russians raw material instead of looking for a reference i think into the lives of but many liberals i know does not exist anymore in the west they never so we're working with your raw material here is at

last well i'm afraid the huge majority of all the people who are old liberals by western media they are financially dependent on the west and sources inside russia then i'm going to change that's why 90 percent of all of their reactions to become offside to kl inside the liberal camp where very negative and most of them are just you know he sold out propulsion that's the only explanation they can have right. of course the thinking numerals and the thinking people are not yet decided which side to join they are reading this now observing this and i think it's somewhat general trends you know i think it's not only russia it's eastern europe in general you know when even france even bradley you know when poland to hungary or the check in bosnia which used to be talk so i can then when they joined the last when they joined the european union they kind of

a very different image on what they were going to see and participate in the than what they want and i think it's an interest in i think that there are a rise of a western sentiment in poor and maybe a very good point in fighting and i'm sorry point is racism because for me a for example is a kind of compete see for the poles they rolled into it or you complex before the west you know the poles have a huge inferiority complex before 'd the french the british you know they are the civilised people we have to be made them this is so humiliating bottom there is an asian to the east a wasp that's. much morris made your. it right out of the well i think right yes and on it well and it must i want to thank our viewers watching us your r.c.c. and its.

seems wrong. just don't all. get to shape out. and engage. the trail. find themselves worlds apart. to look for common ground. the energy of the avalanche is stored on the side of the mountain. when all it needs is one snowflake to a release that catastrophic energy so here you have the energy of hyperinflation is already stored in the system it's already there on the form of the fed's balance sheet they've got trillions and trillions of trillions of paper that is going to come out in a flood and suddenly this will happen the ability and suddenly purchasing power and

confidence of the currency collapses and you have a hyperinflation. this is them bust the one business here you can't afford to miss i'm ready to love and then washington coming out the u.s. has on its way to approving a 3rd kovac 19 vaccine has johnson and johnson gets the green light from the f.d.a. so how soon will the drug be ready for emerging.