now the. welcome to the alex salmond show from scotland the scottish constitutional debate is highly charged provoking many and varied commentators on participants none more so than our guest of titty professor richard murphy started his career as a chartered accountant however much of his analysis these days is on economics and political economy whether he's attacking u.k. chancellor as for the timidity of the economic response to crisis or intervening in scottish political debate he is one of the most clear sighted and articulate of commentators providing an alternative viewpoint to conventional wisdom much more from professor murphy later on in the show but 1st to your tweets messages and emails in a sponsor russia last week on corporate 19 and whether it will be ever with us of

course we heard from the wonderful professor hugh much government had lots and lots of comments 1st of all from lindy he says excellent interview with professor montgomery imbedding equality addressing poverty and dealing with public health properly should form the basis for scotland's route map of corporate and he says professor montgomerie absolutely superior on the shoe speaks so well and communicates complex science issues so clearly and to fixedly and as he's on the frontline of intensive care he should command the highest respect from all of us i may need to listen to ski messages thank you ira says brilliant programme alex instinct says that coverage was in scotland at the latter end of 21000 maybe that's a question that could be explored if you and i says really interesting sure gets to actually hear what the interviewee has to say without interruption thank you. we then had a discussion about long corporate and louie says wasn't a me chronic fatigue syndrome largely discovered by patients too long called it

seems closely related and demi is still largely ignored and under-diagnosed will be searching to long covert help any sufferers i've heard already of any sufferers describing their condition as possible long corvids in order to have their symptoms taken seriously alan says in response my mate jimmy is still managing to work but it's an easy job that he doesn't really have to exert himself at it although he still struggles with doing his job he ends up not eating it is too big because he ends up falling asleep and fall straight to sleep when he's eaten something at lunch time when this topic of long covert is clearly of great interest to many of our viewers and i'm glad to see in the next few weeks we will be having a show dedicated specifically to that topic but night over to alex who's in conversation with professor richard murphy professor richard murphy welcome to the show. current good to be with you richard murphy you come into being or not as a vigorous commentator on the political and economic scene be your background as

a counter to the so how did a accountant get into the split call debate i mean did you want your way through economics to the excitement of political economy are or is a softer are a committee of the code to say your thought it was time for the walk in the wild side i actually think the 2 of fundamentally related alex i mean i didn't undergraduate degree in economics and so please that's where that interest started and i was always interested in the relationship between accountancy and if you like the macro economy how the rules of business shapes the way in which the economy works and served people within it so to me accountants see an economics and political economy are really just different angles of the same issue you can say that accountancy is micro and looking at the economy whole is macro but actually when we look at things like governments they're also doing accounting and how they account makes a big difference to how we understand their affairs too so these issues for me it

just all angles on the same thing how do we meet the needs of people now you've been associated were for innovations like the green new deal you've also been a trenchant critic of economic offered up say i mean do you think you know you're making good on with some of these views and is it going to be enough to get us out of the post pandemic slump. i have a very sorry tale to tell in some ways which is that it seems that most of my ideas take 10 to 15 years to move from being you know an inkling on my computer screen toward something that becomes reality you know i created an idea to tackle international tax abuse in 2003 which became law in 2017 the green new deal was written in the 1st instance in 2008 and here in 2021 no one has really committed to it yet but the time will come i do think it takes people time to a climatized to what are really new ways of looking at the world and the green new

deal is just an example of looking at the world new way and normally there's going to be a pivotal moment when things will change with regard to my work on tax it was the 2008 financial crisis because suddenly every government in the world found itself short of tax revenue and desperate to find some more and so they began to tackle tax havens this time we have got ourselves into no mind financial crash there is no big idea to solve the problem anywhere within any form of capitalism around the world at present so we've got to look at governments to solve them that's the green you do the habit they your ideas and economics the snow in terms of practical affect them in the new monitors on the new theories of the visa and itself and how that could be expanded to the real economy. people still has thought all to balance sheet economics or are those the more openness to taking

a different approach because of the extent of the a meds and say that we're facing. right now there is a lot of new economic thinking some it's had a real impact quantity of easy was just literally the creation of a professor at the university of southampton who went japan and told them you can run almost unlimited deficits in your situation and you will control inflation as a result and you will generate full employment as a result one man one idea one outcome it worked it's being transported around the world we now have trillions of it mo money tree theory takes the idea further and says that we don't need to balance the government's books we need to balance the economy which means we need to put people to work who these things become into fruition yes of course but only if we overcome this paranoia that the economy rests must be run like

a business which we have heritage from one person above all else and that is margaret thatcher who brought it into government from her father's shop in grantham . so in terms of getting the idea and to policy affect them and do we need john maynard keynes do we need some of that or the to grasp the idea of and ram it down the floats of the chancellor of the exchequer of the governor of the bank of england have been how's this going to be done out of the opportunity that exists when a crisis is greater than the exists the normal times as in a crisis that the people come forward to take risks to get the job done what's the prospects of that happening now what we need are 2 things we actually need political leaders who will listen to the thinking this week create it and that's what happened in the 1930 s. roosevelt was willing to take the risk on the likes of keynes so we need political leadership which is willing to break out of this cycle of a standard you cannot mix and certainly in the 2 leading u.k.

parties at the moment the largest ones labor conservative we're not seeing that and we also need our people to communicate the message you doing that by putting me on this program now but what's wrong 'd with the public commonsense idea that low we're running up the bills in the debt like there was no tomorrow because of the would have been a victim model as we've been prepared to to do it but somehow the bills will come flooding through the letterbox their coats will have to be paid what is the same story wrong with that partly foolproof common sense idea that one day their coats have to be paid. well the simple answer is that they won't have to be paid because they have been paid and that's what most people don't get of course we pay the bills we've seen the money go out in the economy businesses have been kept afloat furlough has been provided the government has continued to provide the n.h.s. how has he done it it's done it by creating new money how did he create

a new money by well literally i'll show you what it uses for the process it's deeply technical a you are it's a keyboard alex that's my prof and what does that do they literally type their numbers into a keyboard and it appears ben bernanke he said that when he was chairman of the fed in the usa so it is electronic money created on the keyboard that is paid for this the money however does something else it also keeps the banking system going if we now want to withdraw all that money that the government has created a total in the last year or so or $400000000000.00 over the last decade or so $800000000000.00 out of the economy we're going to crash the banking system do we want to do that i don't think so if we try to repay other parts of the national debt will be forcing people like oh premium bond holders to give up their savings do we want to do that i doubt it if we wanted to repay gilts would be forcing

foreign governments to move their money out of the u.k. do we want them to do that i don't think so what we would also what we have to do force pension funds to give up saving when government gilts why would we want to do that i don't know because it's the safest most secure means for saving for a pension that there is in other words either people have walked safe with the government to pay the bills because they really want the security the government supplies or the government has created the money to pay the bills with its own ability to borrow from the bank of england none of which has to be repay it which if it was would crash the banking system. who we are where we are and where we are is actually quite a comfortable place with regard to debt people want to own it and nobody wants to take it out of circulation let's accept the fact that this is stability as we now find it. i want to be a reasonable thing to say that the real constraints that 11 downing street should

be focusing on. not when the bills come in on the one hand the utilization of productive potential people going to be employed are going to be making things are going to be producing goods and services and on the other hand inflation and keeping that under control as long as you can do these 2 things you should move to use the maximum latitude in terms of your ability to create money and the deed to either through the economy hopefully or a socially just fashion i couldn't agree with you more on it so let's look at the economic reality on the ground at the moment there are around 3000000 people unemployed in the u.k. right now that's significant that's in long term record keeping our large number of unemployed people this is real and employed not necessarily just the numbers on the token gesture that they keep there's over 3000000 people still on furlough and that's also worried because put those 2 together we get over

$6000000.00 people not working that's around 20 percent of the u.k. workforce at present sitting around doing nothing so the 1st job that richie soon it's going to do is work at how to get those people to work in the places where they are this doesn't require big grand schemes like h.s. to this is about creating jobs where people are now that's what people in this country won't and that's what the environment demands as well he's got to spend on hand and can he spend the answer is he can still borrow money at what are effectively negative interest rates the amount paid by the government is less than the rate of inflation so the end of the term if he had to repay the debt and the government never does have to repay its debt because it was just a rose it over into a new debt if you had to pay back less than he borrowed. how many of us would take out a mortgage if we discovered at the end of that period we paid less for the house the

way that she owns it to buy for in the 1st place that's the opportunity he's got and he's not taking it he said he'd rather balance the books that actually create this new opportunity for people to work in this country it's madness they'll take the chance that join us after the break alex continue says discussions with professor richard murphy and ask the key question about scottish independence well see that. the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interests what you see in this these techniques is the state devising methods to end to essentially destroy the personality of an individual. by scientific meaning this is how one doctor's theory as well as the edge of the used

in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation psychological torture. disseminated within the us intelligence community and worldwide among our allies for the next 30 years and how the victims say they still live with the consequences today. welcome back alex is in conversation with professor richard murphy at city university a flood. professor muffy you've been known for your gentle interventions on economics but also you have taken a keen interest than in the scottish debate the constitutional and economic debate

in scotland where the assessment trust come from in there you have to see it in a sim to be in a a celtic nation somewhat to the west of us of a not they are of history in our country to the west of us they're coming i'm my grandfather was the irishman but i'm married to a woman whose parents were irish and my children qualify as irish through her we have irish now i know i love the place and i know as a result of how important it is to understand the desire to be an independent country you know when narrow a century away from training it's independence and i think that that really warms a lot of what might seem to me around this is. believe that my irish innocence in all my perspective of the scottish issue. and your call for your economic united kingdom has

a particular resonance and relevance for the the scottish constitutional debate at the moment explain why the. income in scotland is smaller inevitably than expenditure for scotland which includes quite a lot spent in england and wales and northern ireland potentially for the benefit supposedly of scotland scotland becoming the dumping ground for westminster's budget if you like we know that scotland has always been lost its books it had no choice but balance its books that is the deed aleutian this is being provided and that is also true of every local authority in scotland they too have to balance their books and yet apparently scotland ran this enormous deficit way out of proportion to any other part of the country and so i intervened i just said this is nonsense let's put this right let's try to find the real figures we still haven't got them although there's been some progress made having intervened at that level i then realise that there was an appetite in scotland post 2014 to still develop the

thinking around how scotland could move towards independence this spike back that you know better than anyone that yeah and so i've been involved with organizations that are looking at that issue now can we build the idea of a new nation sorry i don't want paper on how to have a tax system for scotland then the opening assumption which is well i have to start with what you case got but we certainly don't want to end there because it really isn't good and it doesn't reflect society in scotland and that's i think what really interests me about the whole thing no nation that i know of has ever tried to become independent because it wants to keep the structure of the society of the country that is left but is it possible for scotland to be better off in the future than it is now yes. why look at the fundamentals. it was once oil that was claimed

to be scotland's prosperity now it's sustainable energy it's the time it's wind and i recently saw a tweet from the scottish tories that said oh wind in time they're running out really no way there's that possible wind and tide are never going to run out in scotland that's the marriage of scotland it's got this absolute competitive advantage over the whole of europe with regard to sustainable energy for the future and are willing customers just of the south is going to need it scotland has the basis for prosperity and i just find this so credibly exciting adult content of intervening in the budgetary debate you have recently been jones thing with the london school of economics on the trade debate but surely that has an argument breaks that has caused huge problems and it has for the u.k. independence and trade terms would cause huge problems for scotland. i think

this a number of things that have to be drawn out of this report from the london school of economics where they've said that the costs of trade with free in scotland and the rest of the world but particularly england will go up significantly if those independents will go up i think that's indisputable i mean obviously if you put a board in your town to have a small increase in cost but let's also be totally honest one of the reasons why people would choose to be independent in scotland is that i am certain an independent scotland will want to rejoin the e.u. i have really cannot imagine scotland wishing to stay out of efta 1st of all an e.u. eventually they don't have to join the euro by the way let's just put that one to our side you have to promise to rejoin but you don't ever have to actually fulfill your promise it's really a bit naughty but that's the way sweetens done it that's the way scotland would do it so 1st of all scotland could remove the most penal trade barriers that it's

already suffering by getting rid of the problems of breck's it and then if we look at this report from the l.s.e. the assumptions within it and all economists work on the basis of assumptions are really quite absurd they know that scotland has 6 times more trade between scotland and england that they would normally expect for 2 adjacent countries well that's because at the moment they're one country in economic terms secondly they know there's actually no data on which to base this conclusion nobody is measuring trade between england and scotland now because there is no border so they made up the data bluntly they had to create the data sets they say so in that work and they come out with this extraordinary claim that nearly 60 percent of all scottish income is imported enormous that 60 percent of all scottish production is export it well given that the scale of the service sector is very large in scotland as. it is

in england how on earth they so much exports it that means almost every person is in a scottish hospital must be english for example i mean it just doesn't make any sense so the data literally is nonsensical out of all possible proportion so then they assume that nothing will change if scotland becomes independent but we've only got to look at the recent experience of ireland to realise that actually everything changes if you put borders in place ireland has got round the borders between it and england and europe by simply putting a new ferry routes scotland if independent would begin to put in different transport arrangements for certain forms of transport we could see a revival of scottish ports for example prestwick will become a much more important airport than it is now and everything will change and their estimate of costs is based upon the increase in the costs of transport into and out

of ireland in 1922. i hate to tell you that things have changed since the 1922 i wasn't around at the time you weren't around at the time but they don't even take into consideration that england was trying to penalize and in $1022.00 after they'd just been at war with each other effectively and there was only one way even out of ireland which was through england via wales but the point is that all the control was with england so of course costs were put up scotland won't be in that position it would have loads of options this report was pure and utter nonsense of course very important that the common travel area would be undiminished regardless of whether there were poor sudden borders for goods and services that's a point that i think probably escapes the general public is it not. well i think

it's actually critical that it should stay the course it is critical and remember that that was retained post 922 with it so yes the freedom of movement of people should always be retained in a post-independence settlement absolutely fundamental thinking about scottish independence and the european debate given all your say professor barfi the importance of having a currency minimizing the impact of transactions are on the border efter in the european economic area be a rather more attractive prospect for scotland than the european union full scale because although the promise to join the euro at some stage may be an empty promise still a promise can you see the attractions and f. the position for scotland. i don't dismiss efter as a step on the way towards full membership but my belief is that full a u.

membership is about scotland taking a seat at the international tabled at which it rightfully belongs and efter is a bit of an outsiders organization it's peripheral and it takes rulings fundamentally from europe and other organizations the w t o and has little opportunity to shape them for itself so the advantages are better than not being an after but they are an opportunity to really play that international role that scotland curd scotland is not to we to be sitting in brussels flying its own flag shouting its own message and influencing the future of europe as much as for the people of scotland for everybody else who need to know what scotland's got say and so for political reasons i do not see why scotland would want to stay stuck with after a 9 am salute be certain that the euro problem is not one that is going to be

imposed upon scotland nobody is now being forced to join the euro because everybody knows there are problems with it so scotland could sit in limbo on the euro for well many years before beyond when you and i are ever going to be worried about it and i think therefore efter is just a halfway house that's the sort of compromise the sort of wishy this has scotland doesn't need anymore scotland needs to be right where it stands. but they after cut this sweat salon lector stay in norway iceland all in the top 10 in the world in economics but wealth power head there they don't seem to be suffering over much from the left or membership so they were trouble for well alex i hear what you say but each of them has something which is rather all to look at you know switzerland it's long term finance sector liechtenstein taxation norway oil etc scotland is not is good but i don't think is in that sort of economically and vantage place that

many of those are which leaves them except in the compromise of being outside europe scotland is actually dependent whole labor scottish people in a way that none of those states is dependent so much upon the labor of their people so scotland these being europe and this is a debate to be had i mean one of the things that's going to be happening on the day literally with broadcasting this is that i'll be taking part in a debate about this very issue and where scotland should be going the great thing is and this is what circs 20 again about scottish politics that i just don't get in english politics is that scotland and the people of scotland want to spoke about this and so everything is so different in scotland from england where there's an air of defeatism where's scotland that's as ever and everything as if it's an opportunity there is an opportunity to discuss after all the e.u. and eve you and the euro and everything in between and scotland's

opportunity is to grab one of those and run with it for its own best benefit and i think that's where we're heading and that's why we're having the debate that's all the way if scotland had the financial acumen of what some of the energy potential of norway the the fair share in the resources and the clear environment of iceland that of course our future would be assured. and the universities that it's already got. this call is the future is assured you know that i know that and what is more i am quite convinced that in my lifetime it's going to happen the real challenge for me is do i knew just scotland which is another our vet for the carbon travel area professor dr barfi thank you so much for joining me once again on the alex salmond show thanks alex professor richard murphy provides a powerful voice of clarity reason in favor of alternative strategies for economics

and politics in the famous monty python line team mascot john cleese author of the case an advice to charge a kind not to move straight into the danger of lying to me but to work his way towards it here for example banking no such fears from professor richard murphy of course here for mccain to see back kind has entered the political and economic arena in both the u.k. i don't insult and i came to more than a few lions along the way for nice from alex myself and all the show is good by stacy i mean hope to see you all again next week.

the energy of the avalanche is stored on the side of the mountain. when all it needs is one self life to have released that catastrophic energy so here you have the energy of hyperinflation is already stored in the system it's already there on the form of the. trillions and trillions of trillions of paper that is going to come out. and suddenly this will happen. and suddenly purchasing power and confidence of the currency collapses and we have a hyper inflation. when a trauma happens it changes us literally it causes a chemical change. and this changes the way or genes function sometimes for generations.

lead the morning here in moscow in the headlines essential vaccines for political influence critics than slamming israel at the moment said the country's coby jobs in exchange for diplomatic some for. your borders or else brussels slaps ultimatums on 6 and cobra defected member states including a powerhouse germany as traffic piles up trying to get. president biden reopens a facility for migrant children similar to those his fellow democrats dubbed trump concentration camps we got a report coming up. on our correspondent goes here to a social tsunami.