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you. alone welcome to worlds apart according to my guest today a world is undergoing crises of crises and if your speech on the news are scroll through a social media feed that definitely seems to be the case although alpha says would be different depending on the country but do those crises from polarization to power to a phone call that 900 to climate change do they have a common denominator of to discuss that i'm now i'm joined by it's a gate and i've got enough dean of the school world economics and international affairs at the high school of economics and law school it's a good kind of benefits always a pleasure talking to you think you very much right there at the now when western journalists reference you in their articles they usually describe you as hawkish or sometimes even belligerent but i think some of your recent thoughts could be taken as pure antidemocratic blasphemy for example you're right that democracy is now essentially or should be considered essentially a privilege i would even add

a white privilege that only well of societies can afford how did you come to that conclusion it's not i think it's its own spur will it. be done the looks of both so this conscience democracy was dies it is one of the ways 1st of all it's one of the ways of a magic complex societies. it was born in and want to weigh as with as we know it in groups that. because. the. group. empire then. republican republican or more easily one of his french republican but it's been there it's been a long time ago since then we had a no i'm sorry and then an emergence of liberal democracy and it's a raid around the world then them let me roy do that morris the liberal democracy

brought about most of the croatian because february. we had a liberal who was what evolution in favor of 17 then who had 70 years of. to turn terran regime and germany and other highly end of the cold war and the triumph. of them to historically then. just by chance europe didn't succumb to the. game because of because he made a strategic mistake of taking some of the attacking russia and so now we see the again probably and their station where this democracy isn't treated by the way everybody says that. sooner or later on the new level of development of society elements of democracy. are emerging but now we are witnessing there we've heard term. ways everywhere including in socal in the

democratic countries all so-called democratic countries and also i mean the absolute the common sense and i think one of the 1st people who pronounced it was lee kuan yew i mean tomorrow see you smiling is hardly an ideologue of democracy to be honest about common sense i mean democracy is only for rich countries and for each country's for stable societies and whenever there is a. challenge from within or especially from without democracies crumble it's not that i am happy about that. it's. moved like it's true now i think it's important to stress that you make a distinction between democratization a political faith with its own dogmas and democracy is a form of governance and social engagement and i think without the latter it would be like without these sounds of people being privy to their they affairs of their

own country i think it would be very difficult to foster a genuine sounds of national conscience and janie and sounds of patriotism which i'm sure is not an active concept for you how do you build that sounds of social and emotional engagement with your country without democracy this very strange wish . there has been. many societies almost to the ses in the world which have had emotional deep in gave to the countries with societies and thousands of people dying for their country or doing fantastic things in countries where there were no democracies democracy is not just the over this kind of democracy is. approved of the last 6 or 70 years. to huge countries the united states and soviet union blocked. really a real strain historic strain to have

a. big war for 7470 years. well there's only one of the ways of governing and i am a little bit distressed guns when they called democracy of value of value is family values faith. is law for your country but democracy is an instrument and when the people are. saying that. this is a value that is strange and we are a distortion of history but do you recognize that it's important that to keep people engaged to make them believe that they have a stake in the development of that country but there are many other ways. for doing that and move but to democracy is one of the ways and by the way this is obviously it is the most comfortable way of governance including one game in. which you have

. i would have loved that all countries been would have been democratic my country . even on the on the level of the development of acts some of them and some democracy obviously. i'm losing that historically and also i know that democracy has always failed when the reserve strain when there's a crisis of crisis when there's a. war there is your own country in the world who has been born as the most of a special group and would survive as a democracy that's united states now even mention this crisis of crisis and in your writing here you say that we are now in a very particular time in history one of several long simmering trance suddenly coming to the boil and exploiting exploding in our own faces you mentioned the crisis of capitalism the crisis of western civilization the global pandemic or what

is being sold as a global pandemic an environmental degradation which one of those i mean maybe some others preoccupy in the most which you find the most challenging intellectual one their refusal of people to acknowledge the truth. and right that one of the crises is the fact that there too we are using that intellectual tools which were created in different times for different types of societies muesli of course these were on the western times and western types of societies by the way russia was in the west and to the started to depart from the west. a decade or maybe 2 the cade's ago now but we're you better. methods of thinking are absolutely absolutely and and this is the but that means that we are in a way and that is the biggest challenge that our we are. not up to the

challenges we face. i don't know if you were the grave of that but as i was thinking over some of the ideas in. any articles it occurred to me that many of this crisis may have a common denominator and i would call it for myself. excessive consumption or in simpler terms pure basic pure human greed and i see comment 19 as an example of that because in my view at least it's primarily an metabolic challenge not so much a viral one and metabolic challenges always sound from poor self control people eating too much consuming too much which is exactly what the capitalist system is encouraging them to do as its model of development would it be fair to say that essentially all these problems stem from the ethos of enough never being enough. well greed is one of the great drivers of so the zation without greed. so

they should never be. the sole develop of people who want to consume or want to live better the problem is that in most of the times in history if this really was either the contained either by set of moral values including by the way the more about as in the west. and dated by. external circumstances like wars threats etc etc and then during last 70 years of there was there was very unique in human history we were we have. these external know now containing factors then who have the degree of normal values and in many countries and combination of excessive bluebell excessive. consumption and by the way it is of all it is provokes on the daily basis by.

by the whole environment i mean that we what we watch what we hear is consume consume consume plus again that chain is the change of that is in many of the societies. that is the biggest it is their deepest problem i would say of course and they said that that is what i called the crisis capital and it's only excessive consumption of it is relational model well also in a sound sense what you refer to as the crisis of western civilization because this alternately you know what the western civilization and i think we both consider russia part to be or to be part of that civilization one of the greatest the hallmarks of the enlightenment was the recognition of the sanctity of of the individual and yet you call many of the of this new current. movements and a humanist can you explain what you mean. in life and of course was

a great step forward in the in human history but because it put the human person into the center of the problem is that in lent and. was once a one sided in the in the if you bring that. trend in order or behavior to their way to their. historic end which is what with finishing we end up with in human society. human not wanting the meaning of the of the of the person. be him or a man and a woman. used to his family. in that so his society his country and the world got and that is that is absolutely in every civilization in their own version and what we have been hearing now. is. that of

civilization because. and that is their core problem which the western societies face and that's why i am very much concerned about that and because we are there much part now of the western civilization however i'm happy that we're turning east and this. to some of the others who have you know i would say it but it's also a turn from this was asian which is probably which will probably bring us to the gravitation while mr kerr going to france a fascinating topic to consider but let's take a very short break right now we will be back in just a few moments they chant. on. the air.

in. you. welcome back to worlds apart they said gay crackdown that dean of the school

up world economics and the international relations at the school of economics in moscow mr carr going to before the break we touched upon this very touchy subject of the enlightenment values which many of the new western movements be for gender rights a racial rights and the rights of the minorities the dissenter and you said they are misinterpreting it i would suggest an alternative explanation because i think. it is impossible to become. self-sufficient thinking adult person without sustaining some trauma and reality is always more than in human psychology can bear but what those. movements are doing is lie and the rising and instrumental lies in the trauma rather than the human spirit which can over a condom trauma and in this sense it's indeed inhumane because it actually

suppresses the human spirit for some instrumentalists goal but why do you think it's so widespread why do you think so many people are in sync with that. little well 1st of all so maybe. it is a. little bit in oregon in the us in countries these niggling minorities in that you minute in the halls of humility. but the to do exists for the reasons one of the reasons we shew mention but i agree with with the question which. is of course that we have been living through there. will be a long period of comfortable. life without big wars you mean it we or people in the west there with their we we we we the people. in the west we also show they belong but most of the people most of the people i mean there were some that is will never will never be influential in africa all that an american

missionary and i think this is a very important point because there are many. values or sort of worldviews that we genuinely share with the europeans but there is a great. difference in that our history is far more traumatic has been far more traumatic than there is over the last let's say a 100 here is and you know there is expression i think in both russia and in ways that you know man's suffering is quite separate change i mean the more you suffer and the better you understand human nature at the end of the day the more in tash with the reality you are and i think this is also one of the ideas that you. elaborate on your writing that the west has essentially been fascinated by those ideas because it hasn't had real problems for a very long time. one of the prongs that is one of the fallacious another

nation of course is that. their own kind of injustices and balances in them in most societies including this and societies and the ruling circles. the cone by using all these strange ideologies. to disunite the people. to distract them from real problems number they call covered is one of the greatest examples of how people destructing hearing it from oh there's no it is no it is not a but is it is a problem but it is a problem say 40 percent of that 2030 percent is that it by more than media and 30 percent of course artificial we have pumped up in order to distract people from those real problems and this is then these and these ideals is which we have some of them which you have mentioned are of course dividing

people who are making i mean cutting them from themselves by the way from history there is a widespread belief here in russia that the racial justice moment in the united states was used to. get rid of trump and i wonder if it's perhaps a bit broader than this because presenting racism as the main source of all america's evils also allows those transnational elites shift the focus from globalization which in the real in the real fear to stickle terms undermined the middle class and exacerbated in quote income inequality regardless of race i wonder if all these efforts to a partridge trump on his base as racist are really about that views on race or is it perhaps war about their views on globalization that is all because. i mean these

elites or some of the bigots who. were born out and born by going to position are fighting for their turf and that's why they openly or discretely support. all these movements by the way i mean the. black on lives measure is also his or the salutes i mean in that situation with the black or front i mean racial discrimination is everyone's fear no man and everybody is a moment i mean but of course aid would have been anywhere close to. their prominence if not supported by the roots and by the way that there be a lamb is also in europe or even in the countries i do not know we should have haven't had any problems with reeses i'm guessing it's mostly political or economic in nature it is both political economic and it is destruction from real problems which are building up that is one of the ways of distrusting from real problems

which built the however. to reflect the real problem now i want to mention one more of these ethical narratives that appeal to our better angels but they also serve somebody else's bottom line this is. a pair of environmental isn't versus jane in concern for the environment where is the difference for you. oh we'll i mean environmentalism as a religion which is becomes as it is a is not about of course in them though it i mean those who care for them ironman. but let me just give you a very simple example i mean all these rooms which are being introduced and you're . pushing away i mean the production of goods elsewhere but then they come back and europe or they're to say it's consume all these goods

they are pushing away the problems but they also know they know you know wait a 2nd they consume all those goods then they ship all of this waste you know more scenes yes but always a lot of lost just dozens of the real thing all is. i mean by the way it's all. by oprah because i consume too much i have too many rooms and so hose why on earth do that and the other one of those who are probably. preaches but not practice and you know there will be i know i have to practice a of course i try to conserve its interest but because i lived in the food through that period of excessive consumption that especially coming from a very well to do but relatively. scars. and so union and when it opened up i started to consume to watch and now i understand it was absolutely a mystery why but if we can joke about this but this is actually

a major problem because it's not only the problem of wasteful spending all this consumption makes people sick than it's written assess that they are spending more resources on curing them and they end of the day the resources of the planet are indeed finite and they have already reached their limit absolute it will come to replace this system because as you talk about this crisis of crisis you understand if you cannot destroy everything immediately you will have to start somewhere making adjustments where is that area where adjustments are 1st for dozens of areas on my table there's a reporter who is now preparing and the bill is to some of the government but who which will cause a stir in the server. it is of course 1st of all i mean. all of it excessive consumption i'm a liberal one doesn't mean that he's the returning to planning economy and telling people you can only eat one apple has no i mean if you want to buy 2nd the whole

home or i mean you have to pay for that i mean thrice that says if you want. the old booze which i. know that beyond a certain level could be should be taxed you. or your welcome but then you'll have to pay and the money is collected from that these taxes could be used to your environment too could be sent to medicine and elsewhere but that is one of the ways but then they will start to change people's minds because before that we were. pushed towards consumption now it is this survival of the planet planted on transnational elites and those big corporate enterprise and now using to continue their course and i think they're pretty awful and that they see a national governments as impediment for themselves i mean if you look at some of the documents produced by the world economic forum in davos it's pretty clear that

you know corporate elites blame all the social ills on governments how do you see these very real tension between national and transnational elites evolving in the next 10 years i think that the nation of these will be winning for the time being i've been in the business for long as i remember when people for a brother sighing that does us all corporations. and juice will run the world. was young person i was also in fear in the fate aided by these ideas where these term social corporations they're fighting for the turf but now they have moved. almost all of them are marching on the command of the of the governments of strongest country as. if they if countries are weak in then of course they will be . even further but this time not by the transnational corporations by the but

they're from social corporations more and more governed by governments and these the so i mean so and it will be very expensive. commodity and only a few countries will be. oh affords russia one software that you mentioned. those corporations are usually under the control of the government and obviously we know that they the main country here is the united states because it there has very strong transnational elites it has an emerging new media companies or contribute a great deal to. making peoples are around the world more how how margin is regardless of their claims and support for diversity in the case of the united states who is the dog and who is the tail. there were then there was a rouge and. the nation ill leads and and of major the business.

of course it was doing not only by the levy elites but by the common folk. for the time being. is being had been pushed away but i think there's a later he or. she will reappear because. countries could not and even the united states could not afford it anymore and so the veterans that are essential the interests of transnationals when they say that we have they are paying for europeans paying for their for their security. that is common sense europeans has not been paying but the system benefited benefited us national corporations and now i think. with biden or with not with biden it is a retreat but short term peace will win by trump and you mean the sort of the uprising of the common folks. and the. nation's capital. visibly

transnationals and the way of the one of the reasons why there is such a true towards russia or china is that now previously those from national. elites were governing except for soviet space. but now i mean they have this best sense of independence toru which are showing that you could do without or well below be an independent but one of the main reasons why. there was such an attack on russia few years ago and we were accused of being edge of hearing and american elections was there. and the willingness of this. ruling elite to take on to control the media corporations and the old ways for years and they have been fighting to take control of their own but they own the wall and now it is interesting and now when they overthrew trump and invent term

whether it was a truce or was the victory of the state over in the state it is a very interesting subject for the next conversation absolutely that unfortunately we have to live in there but it's always a pleasure talking to a thank you very much and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on a well to part. to. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to get a little older politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

armenia's prime minister faces pushback from the country's president over his demand to fire the country's top general that's as crowds continue to demand that the pm step down. and donald trump makes his 1st public speech since leaving the white house saying he has no plans to create a new political party but he hasn't ruled out running for president again in 2024 either. plus in our look at some of the top stories of the week stockpiles of the astra zeneca colvin vaccine go unused in europe amid questions over its effectiveness but it comes as the world health organization warns of a lack of shots and poor nations.