values and so-called international norms and the russians have had enough of the e.u.'s interference in russia's internal politics the e. refuses to treat russia as an equal partner until this changes this bilateral relationship appears to be on hold. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest john lott put in paris he's a university lecturer in history of political philosophy in brussels we have look we've a he is an independent journalist and in cork we cross to geoffrey robertson as america's professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to john in paris if you heard my introduction here until the e.u. or respects russian treats russia as an equal partner this relationship isn't going

to move anywhere it is a it is basically in a deep freeze right now and i and i and personally i think it's the e.u. that has to take the 1st step but i don't think they're up to it go ahead john i totally agree i don't think there's any prospect now of the relationship improving there are very few voices in the european union who are in favor of it improving you can count them on the fingers of one hand. and instead to the vast majority of european politicians want to break off or break down relations with russia as much as they can for a whole host of reasons of which i think the most important is that they actually thrive on this notion of themselves as being morally superior to russia russia is the other europe russia is the other europe russia is the europe they don't want to be it's a state which they. they regard as. reactionary nationalistic

religious patriotic. and so on all of things all of al use that they reject europe the european union wants to be unhistorical post national and so on and that's why russia is like a sort of guilty conscience for the way they have their own internal political purposes they have to. hate russia and say they hate russia and when i say internal political purposes i mean that in the strongest possible sense of the term because just as in the united states of america conservatives and others in. they basically conservatives in europe very often attacked as being russian 5th columnists in other words it serves a very straightforward political purpose which is to insult and discredit people who don't agree with various aspects of western foreign policy so for all those

reasons i don't think that there's any prospect at least not in a short or even medium term of any improvement same same question to you. because it's you know this kind of thing but what john just said there and it seems like be you just hasn't pride in humorous is when he gets down to go ahead i think that's certainly part of the story. point you know if russia the relations do great. it won't be much of a loss i mean that's what lupo's the russians and i keep shrinking we don't have much of a relationship we d. and we have had since 2000 faulty should buffett be prepared to say ok. we will break relations for 2nd point is that the e.u. isn't europe e.u. isn't. it the e.u. there's also a independent european strikes and their relations are with russia are very very different really should just some very hostile estates. some very core

relationships is not so not not so this is something that i was a lover of is always. we really wants to strengthen our electoral relations with our european european sites that's that is. what they say to. me. russia has been criticized for having for seeking by a lot of relationship with independent states because the criticism is that you're trying to divide the e.u. but the e.u. is already divided i don't understand why you have to blame it on russia let me go to luke here look i mean i think the way i look at it you know i very pragmatic i'm a conservative and the way i look at is it just one big headache you don't want to negotiate you don't want to have good relations you don't want to have a good neighborhood well fine here we don't have to do it there are other places in the world to look to and have relationships with it with it's a pity i think but i mean it's ended up being one big headache and with just

a burrell's visit here just in completely embarrass the european union he did it not go ahead. yes well i would defend brother for one site i think he's very old in a way older than sage but this time i think is athens was a great help he doesn't want to to close the door and to avoid any relation with russia east is the law who was looking at it in a different way while all politicians interruption parliament were you know there is a group or politically correct in bashing russia. it is the new political ground specially russia but i think it could improve i'll have a little. you know word of optimist mix that with the russian vaccine or vaccines i should say it might improve a little even this is not allowed to say that well the russian vaccine will be welcome you know once of course the e.u.

may or can medicines agency says yes just by the way it takes an awful long time for that you may to give anything back to any backseat but still you know if that happens you have 8 countries in europe say we're interested with a russian faxing sent me it might change russia would be good guys again well and tell them i mean it i mean that what i would like that scenario i think has been offered i mean it is very interesting is that the western ambassadors in ukraine having an oversized influence on ukrainian politics told the ukrainian government you can't take the russian vaccine this is the kind of ridiculousness that you get to hear but the big challenge here isn't that the problem the way i look at it is that nation states and i know that's an archaic idea for the european union i guess but nation states have interests you know why did it was talking about values ok why do you have to come and talk about what's wrong with your civil society what's

wrong with your democracy you know it why do you what do they need to go around lecturing people they've got their own problems and russia up until recently. continued to extend the hand and now they're saying i can't say it on t.v. but you know what i'm thinking go ahead john well i think as i say that's because they need to maintain their internal narrative. and. because somebody mentioned the vaccines were found alive and said a week or 10 days ago that europe had to buy vaccines together as a block because otherwise european unity would be threatened and and that was the reason why the vaccine rollout was slower it was a terrible thing to say because it showed that she puts european unity about how our health of european citizens but the extent of her ideological line this is that i revealed and that's why i say that she's quite capable of doing things in the name of european ideology which are against european interests so i agree i agree

with your question that there is the. dichotomy between on the one hand over the discourse on values and real interests i do agree with that and of course the big issue which these individual sanctions high is not stream to gas pipeline because like like jeffrey i hope that there might be some good news hiding in there somewhere and he's absolutely right jeffrey is absolutely right to say that the bilateral relations are better than the relations with the bloc although that's not forget that any one country out of the $27.00 could have the total sanctions and it didn't and even countries which are quite friendly towards russia like hungary for example has not decided to veto them it could be it could be that this bluster about novelli and the individual

sanctions against russian officials is a way for germany to say well we've done a lot of sanctions but we're not going to. do the not stream to gas pipeline sanction we're going to complete it and that's my hope and i think on balance that that's probably what's going to happen you know as they in a valley sanctions are a sideshow well i mean it certainly inside russian about me is a sideshow ok in a political entrepreneur and he's why widely seen as me as a provocative or connected with the west it's widely held ok but you know jeffrey is it is is it worth the e.u. to have such frosty relations over such a dubious character is not about me having amnesty international to come up off the list as a prisoner of conscience because well he's a bigot ok among a lot of other things ok and his videos are on you tube for anyone to see ok well there well there are shadow banning and the platforming people they allowed that stuff this day on so it isn't about me where the jeff go ahead. i think you know i

agree with john on this is that the after so you know could prove to be you know kind of upset as long as nothing lot of son about me it should know isn't about it should die in prison or something like. you know could blow up again and yet i mean there are 3000 sanctions they you rush to know about the case that affect you know such a plea 80 cricket a critical juncture acb of equal. what would signal a really fundamental breakdown in russia your relations and not just russia here relations but relations leave your result will be if they get somebody might like chancel will stream to all or if it was really major economic sanctions no i don't see any sign of that at the moment so i kind of tend to be on the optimistic side doing what we believe lugano. shay's optimism.

on 20 for this race is. you know rochelle european states or russia need. right and each will know much does that mean the and the current endemic such are much. corruption each every relationship. they need each every russian to ongoing conflicts and issues in the middle east and in fact they need each other relationships are mental issues security issues the whole problem of the rise of china and when will the fist there's an underlying kind of. a commonality of interest. you know what will stop the e.u. and your countries from from taking extra steps to get i mean you look at joseph burrell's you know spectacle here i mean that doesn't give me much hope i mean it was such an embarrassment for everyone involved here but look you know before we go to the break here the biden ministration is just announced another huge military

package of offensive weapons to ukraine now the europeans are going to step up and say this is our neighborhood too or they just going to go along with that ok because that is something that is going to in their red lines all over the place here that that is something that is very very important to russia's security if you have a hostile country when you're bored being supplied with sophisticated military equipment from a western country in nato yet 30 seconds before we go to the break i had. well i think 1st for quickly for on. to i think it's what's important is that mrs merkel has always been elected in the region whether trumbull who writes in mt baker so she is really for it she doesn't say to go out and she's for it so that's the greatest oh i think so i know i i don't think she's for i think she's desperate for a case because yes because if they don't and let me remind everyone it north stream

one was is in place it's the 2nd one was merkel's idea ok what i have to go to which the great gentlemen enough to let short break we'll continue our discussion and be you russia relations stay with r.t. . of the.

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the. whole group. through google groups. welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm. talking about the impact of russian e.u. relations. ok let's go back to john and paris here look at the dress they were going to break the north stream to what you want you want to take up the issue of what i was talking about when it in reference to ukraine go ahead but i find you're quite right to say that the supplying of. ns to ukraine they will wait if. the trump

administration by the way was already supplying some lethal weapons but if in black spots have been stepped up then actually is you know an extremely unfriendly act what i find so incredible about this is that the european union as you say firstly they should be saying this is our neighborhood france and germany have presented themselves as mediators in the ukraine conflict and yet america seems to be taking the front seat and stirring the pot as usual but european leaders as well protected the germans have also said very strongly that they are against u.s. extraterritorial sanctions against european companies working on not stream 2 so how does that work if american extra tauriel sanctions are wrong for europe for europe why are european exeter extraterritorial sanctions ok when they're applied by europe against russia it just doesn't add up and i think the most sinister aspect of this this was the way that the european union followed slavish lead

follows the american administration in particular of course now that trump has got is on china we heard joe biden saying the other day that china he understood china had to be strong it had to suppress internal dissent in order not to become a victim on the international stage biden made an explicit apology for political repression in china and ng and of course that by also meaning in hong kong because he said that's how china worked and if it didn't do that then it would fall prey to external powers as an absolutely incredible thing to say about a single party one party totalitarian dictatorship but europe with all its discourse about values it does the same thing because. i think the very 1st of december pleased at the end of december a few weeks ago. the european union the most boris defender of human rights in the world signed a multimillion investment package with china. so the signal is no to russia and yes

to china but how does that work out only on the level of human rights to me it doesn't make sense at all in any end tempted to at the end of the day if we look at the relationship with the new russia with the end of the soviet union and the rise of the european union the europe brussels has just had a message in that they say they've never really deviated from rushing you must become more like us ok and up until you do that we're going to treat you as a junior partner we're going to lecture you and john brings up a such great point you know russia is is is singled out you know but not china not the other countries it's because they feel this need to save russia and this is in this this again this kind of. a morality play a post modern morality play to save the russian soul by kenya's go ahead come a great yeah. he did he wants to you know change russia interglacial itself and

that's not going to happen until the e.u. gives up on that project is this going to be its underlying conflict and tension you know the 2 things that really worry about the current situation as best as exists is that he has complete inability to see fakes from the russian point of view our example got deferral visit to moscow before he went to moscow he basically area austar statements relation to russia and when he gets there he raises all kinds of contentious issues in cohen. and then he saw acts apprised of the year surprise when he got some some russian russian pushback what's going on there. the 2nd thing is that the e.u. european states seem to lost their their fear of war. resisting to cross the type of escalation you know so you have some people. the baltic states is a lot of a flashpoint there are a flash lack of places places. lassie for example ok we're

a more american ship i don't know why they need to see that dismissed abide by you know i mean well in what american national interest does the. present completely mystified by look let me go to you and i think i mean you know. john and jeff that brought up really good ideas is that you know i call it ideological possession there possessed with their ideology and then it happens complete inability to look at a situation room a different angle all of us remember the cold war very very well and that's how we got through the cold war by saying well i won it getting inside the other guy's shoes had they seen us ok we survived the cold war because of not being on all sides ok but then there's the inability of them to do that norma side of the european union i want to point out is that you know when clinton 1st came to power he talked about you know is sitting in new security arrangements from lisbon don't

lot of bus stop and they stayed with that for a while and then that to say you know i'm not there is no need keeper giving out ideas he has bring your security in our house and they don't listen because they're this is what i'm balancing relationship i want to ask you take the knee and brussels of course you're not going to go ahead. well the war mongering is clearly on the side of america and i think there's been a great disappointment in russia. you know a few years ago already. they realized that america was not willing to discuss security and that you are simply following not following the us nato is total disarray because trump the finger where it hurts you know your concern didn't pay for that incident so loudly as saying like was your mother omen thought the same john didn't say we can't be thomas' europe m. at centcom we've got reinforced nato i mean it's

a total cockup. look at the relations with turkey turkey i mean come on as they may don't these gas and they threaten greece with war and france sells it so our plans to go to greece and i mean it's really terrible so nato is in december 7th bad state if only because mrs all of a was minister of the friends of germany for 8 years which was a total disaster. but so it's very bad situation decision ration out and as you say it's quite dangerous because the younger generation doesn't realize the danger of the cold war and the fact that a country like ukraine is incredibly dangerous. that and i'm sorry but it was the e.u. that made it more dangerous than ever before when they signed an agreement with you know kobe in there in cagny been dried and they turned their back on them and pretended they even if they didn't even know who he was it was

a disgrace what the european union did and it's of their fault well what what happened they should have turned around the next day and they should have sanctioned they'd be cool regime and say we know that we're going to stick by our agreement but no ok and of course you know that was it followed up but you know it was a cake simulation of the new and telephone call we. we don't have to go into detail here but you know they wrecked the neighborhood in the blame somebody else john go ahead. that's that's absolutely certain i mean we're going back 5 years now i mean that whole business was was horrible and unfortunately it carries on i think one conclusion that we should perhaps draw from this is that despite what everyone says. and i am conscious of saying this on our t.v. russia does not have a substantial soft power program art is an extremely successful

television channel and that's why everyone hates it but apart from r.t. there isn't really very much and in particular the contrast is striking with china i made a point about the double standards on china a moment ago and the reason for these double standards on china is very simple money there is masses of chinese money flushing of sloshing around both in terms of university foundations commercial money obviously huge chinese form is all arrested and large parts of the political establishment in western europe and as we know in the united states and of course i'm thinking of the bidens here in the pay of the chinese and it's very striking that russia maybe because she felt she had her fingers burnt with the soviet experience where the whole you know leadership of world communism ended up costing her a lot of money and she and her fingers on it maybe for that reason but russia as i

say very much the opposite of what everyone says does not have a substantial soft power program in the world they don't they don't pay people ever pay lobbyists at least not very much i'm not i'm not aware of them paying very many lobbyists and this may be one of the reasons why they buy the relationship is so bad. it may simply be a matter of money you know one of the things that's really interesting and those that follow the intricacies of liberal politics inside of russians and we've had over the last year means a number of liberals by definition. ok but they're looking at what's going on in the united states and the european union and they're horrified by this. post modernist no cultural movements ok and yet the liberals here you know they're that they find themselves in a very difficult situation because the mass majority of people that you know in russia. and some of the people i know here in moscow they say we don't want your

coats here and no way we don't want that here ok this is don pointed out. here family oriented tradition patriots super patriots ok and they him one of the things that happens that most people in the west don't understand is that all of the negative things said about russia in the media is and so we translated into russians and people know what people say about them and the same person i don't know anything about russia and how dare they say they're morally superior to us we don't need it bashing ok don't you know we did a horrible events what have you done lately western added you know a lot of people here so in just a barrel comes waltzing in and telling her everybody how they live their minds people even liberal say we don't want to go minute they're shooting themselves in the butt with this. pizza and they're conservative i'm

a liberal and i actually share. a lot of liberal pretty liberal criticisms of russian culture and understand russian society my position is just a show i don't want to impose on russia should be outside. it will be an evolution in truly new shouldn't she. it in a in a cut in why would it could have brought direction but that's the last he's seeking so. if you. agree with john on john's point about russia's lackey. there's a. kind of wish at meaux. i feel i need a bit of the systems in trying to present the russians a lot of shit to also so i would like. also because i'm much bicycle seat one of the reasons that russia doesn't have the x. rays is because he does not she have any ambition to remake the well he's right down in the imposing. right about ours on the rest of the i want to talk.

so i near. our i'm doing the best about one man so i want to. rustle in tora but i'd like our viewers watching your ardency next that remember. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm showbusiness i'll see if that. that.

kids are. not. going on in jeans only. does she don't consume don't jell you've been talking to little jacob dealing with the sand on the most room in that are equal to 2 inches of snow means or what he calls a stand snake. don't we don't see only him doing. that to those all moving in as a song is a downside to us it all took the sitting on. the 21st century america is exhausted it's just tired and it doesn't have anything approaching more but china after being on the margins for so long does have something to prove and they do have the capacity and they are putting shoulder to

the whale and they are working at. the headlines in our 3 thousands of women in the british army who suffer harassment and abuse from within their own ranks house according to testimonies being a good. question it's just me a complete waste of tinchy it paid to treat me to some. big simply a mistake makes outliving feel like she's to blame like she was asking for it just basically brought the shipment to be jobs meant for strike near him or some according to faxing nationalism cumber is the mandate of the e.u. commission reconsiders the move on texans for joe biden off the head like decision to relax try to bar frictions in this state began with all thinking. the democrats are going to love harry here.