hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered a computer labelle russia e.u. relations right an impasse the kremlin has made it clear it will no longer tolerate the e.u. lecturing about values and so-called international norms and the russians have had enough of the e.u.'s interference in russia's internal politics the e refuses to treat russia as an equal partner until this changes this bilateral relationship appears to be on hold. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest john lott live in paris he's a university lecturer in history and political philosophy in brussels we have look we've a he is an independent journalist and in cork we cross to geoffrey robertson as america's professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy original macross up rules in effect that means

you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to john in paris if you heard my introduction here until the e.u. respects russian treats russia as an equal partner this relationship isn't going to move anywhere it is a it is basically in a deep freeze right now and i and i and personally i think it's the e.u. that has to take the 1st step but i don't think they're up to it go ahead john i totally agree i don't think there's any prospect now of the relationship improving there are very few voices in the european union who are in favor of it improving you can count them on the fingers of one hand. and instead to the vast majority of european politicians want to break off or break down relations with russia as much as they can for a whole host of reasons of which i think the most important is that they actually thrive. on this notion of themselves as being morally superior to russia russia or

is the other europe russia is the other europe russia is the europe they don't want to be it's a state which they regard as. reactionary nationalistic religious patriotic. and so on all the things all of al use that they reject europe the european union wants to be unhistorical post national and so on and that's why russia is like a sort of guilty conscience for the way they have their own internal political purposes they have to. hate russia and say they hate russia and when i say internal political purposes i mean that in the strongest possible sense of the term because just as in the united states of america conservatives and others in. they basically conservatives in europe very often attacked as being russian 5th

columnists in other words it serves a very straightforward political purpose which is to insult and discredit people who don't agree with various aspects of western foreign policy so for all those reasons i don't think that there's any prospect at least not in a short or even medium term of any improvement same same question to you. because it's you know this kind of thing but what john just said there and it seems like be you just hasn't pride in humorous is when he gets down to go ahead i think that's certainly part of the story. point you know if russia the relations do great down it won't be much of a loss really saludos the russians are making sure we don't have much of a relationship we d. and we have had since 2000 faulty should parfitt be prepared to say ok. we will break relations for 2nd point is that the e.u. isn't europe e.u. isn't. it is the new there's also independent european strikes and their relations

are with russia a very very different group really should jet some very hostile unchecked mistakes some very core relationships is not so not not so this is something that i would love rove is always. really wants to strengthen the electoral relations with our european european sites that's that is our priority update that is what they say to . me. russia has been criticized for having for seeking by a lot of relationship with independent states because the criticism is the are trying to divide the e.u. but the e.u. is already divided i don't understand why you have to blame it on russia let me go to luke here look i mean i think the way i look at it you know i very pragmatic i'm a conservative and the way i look at is it just one big headache you don't want to negotiate you don't want to have good relations you don't want to have a good neighborhood well defined here we don't have to do it there are other places

in the world to look to and have relationships with it with it's a pity i think but i mean it's ended up being one big headache and with just a burrell's visit here just in completely embarrass the european union he did it not go ahead. yes well i would defend borrow for one site i think it is very very old in a way older than sage but this time i think is elephant was a great help he doesn't want to to close the door and to avoid any relation with russia ease is the law who was looking at it in a different way while all politicians interruption parliament were you know there is a group or politically correct in bashing russia that was it is the new political ground specially russia but i think it could improve i'll have a little. you know word of optimist mix that with the russian vaccine or

vaccines i should say it might improve a little even this is not allowed to say that well the russian vaccine will be welcome you know once of course the e.u. may or can medicines agency says yes just great out by the way takes an awfully long time for that you may to give anything back to any backseat but still you know if that happens you have 8 countries in europe say we're interested with a russian faxing sent me it might change russia would be good guys again well and tell them i mean it i mean that what i would like that scenario i think has been offered i mean it is very interesting is that the western ambassadors in ukraine having an oversized influence on ukrainian politics told the ukrainian government you can't take the russian vaccine this is the kind of ridiculousness that you get to your big turn here but that the problem the way i look at it is that the nation states and i know that's an archaic idea for the european union i guess but nation

states have interests you know why did it was talking about values ok why do you have to come and talk about what's wrong with your civil society what's wrong with your democracy you know it why do you what do they need to go around lecturing people they've got their own problems and russia up until recently. continued to extend the hand and now they're saying i can't say it on t.v. but you know what i'm thinking go ahead john well i think as i say that's because they need to maintain their internal narrative. and. somebody mentioned the vaccines or from the lion said a week or 10 days ago that europe had to buy vaccines together as a block because otherwise european unity would be threatened and and that was the reason why the vaccine rollout was slower it was a terrible thing to say because it showed that she puts european unity about how our health of european citizens but the extent of her ideological line this is that

i revealed and that's why i say that she's quite capable of doing things in the name of european ideology which are against european interests so i agree i agree with your question that there is the. dichotomy between on the one hand over the discourse on values and real interests i do agree with that and of course the big issue which these individual sanctions hide is not stream to gas pipeline because like like geoffrey i hope that there might be some good news hiding in there somewhere and he's absolutely right jeffrey is absolutely right to say that the bilateral relations are better than the relations with the bloc although that's not forget that any one country out of the $27.00 could have veto to sanctions and it didn't and even countries which are

quite friendly towards russia like hungary for example has not decided to veto them it could be it could be that this bluster about novelli and the individual sanctions against russian officials is a way for germany to say well we've done a lot of sanctions but we're not going to. do the not stream to gas pipeline sanction we're going to complete it and that's my hope and i think on balance that that's probably what's going to happen you know as they in a valley sanctions are a sideshow well i mean it certainly inside russian about me is a sideshow ok and a political entrepreneur and he's why widely seen as me as a provocative or connected with the west is widely held ok but you know jeffrey if it is it worth the e.u. to have such frosty relations over such a dubious character is not about me having amnesty international to come off the list as a prisoner of conscience because well he's a bigot ok among

a lot of other things ok and his videos are on you tube for anyone to see ok well there well there are shadow banning and the platforming people they allow that stuff is they don't so it isn't about me where the jeff go ahead. i think you know i agree with john on this is the only after you know could prove to be you know kind of upset as long as nothing more out of the sun about me it should know it's not about should die in prison or something. you know could blow up again and yet i mean there are 2 reasons sanctions they use rush to not only case that affect you know such a plea a plea hypocrite a critical juncture acb of equal. what would signal a really fundamental breakdown in russia your relations and not just russia here relations but relations be europe as i hope will be if they get somebody might like chancellor will stream to all or if it was really major economic sanctions no i

don't see any sign of that at the moment so i kind of tend to be on the optimistic side you know i can really believe we delude going to. shea's optimism. on 20 for this race is done you know and rochelle european states or russia need. right and each will know much does that mean the and the current endemic missiles which are much easier to russian each every relationship. then each every russian 2 ongoing conflicts and issues in the middle east and in fact they need each other in relation to our mental issues security issues the whole problem of the rise of china and when will the 5th there's an underlying kind of. commonality of interest. will. stop the e.u. and your countries from from taking extra steps to get i mean you look at joseph

burrell's you know spectacle here i mean that doesn't give me much hope i mean it was such an embarrassment for everyone involved here but look you know before we go to the break here the biden ministration is just announced another huge military package of offensive weapons to ukraine now and the europeans are going to step up and say this is our neighborhood too or they just going to go along with that ok because that is something that is going to in their red lines all over the place here that that is something that is very very important to russia's security if you have a hostile country when you're bored being supplied with sophisticated military equipment from a western country in nato yet 30 seconds before we go to the break i had. well i think 1st for quickly for on. to i think it's also important is that mrs merkel as always spin get elected in the region whether trumbull who writes in mt baker so she is really for it she doesn't say too loud that she's for it so that's

the greatest oh i think i know i i don't think she's for i think she's desperate for a case because it's because it may and and let me remind everyone it north stream one was is in place it's the 2nd one was merkel's idea ok what i had to go on wishing operate gentleman enough to let short break we'll continue our discussion and be you russia relations stay with r.t. . there are 3 big events i'm in more than a few 3 which could not be predicted because they were ridiculous good the prospect for because it was world war one because nobody really can see that what would happen if you deployed us old and machine guns on one side to get into the cauldron machine guns because this was always done it again sule warriors for the. bribes my

. friend your. normal serious french politician would could ever ever accepted up some good deal like corpus pierre could become a leader of the country but it will deplete it was important to rebuild the collapse of soviet union because again you know sold out was. even called. the soviets themselves. since it either doesn't. come with them if they pay for them and those of us about to him i'm going to let. the i list. thank you. if you're not. type here's a painting. me in the next. moment i. wish been. used to feel good you know in. the

midst of a good. fall . in the early nineties seventies a psychologist mixologist proposed to the west but a social experiment he wanted to live paedophiles and neglected boys experiment was a. mobile. home. to tend to believe that sex with older men would help with the boy's socialization over 30 years many children were handed paedophiles to raise. the.

boardrooms or should meet mr hope for good to see someone through the roof. welcome back to cross or all things are considered i'm teetotal about 3 months we're talking about the impasse of russian relations. ok let's go back to. and in paris you look at the dress they represent to break north stream to what you want you want to take up the issue of what i was talking about when in reference to ukraine go ahead but i find you're quite right to say that the supplying of extra weapons to ukraine they will wait if. the trump

administration by the way was already supplying some lethal weapons but if things like sports have been stepped up then actually is you know an extremely unfriendly act what i find so incredible about this is that the european union as you say firstly they should be saying this is our neighborhood france and germany have presented themselves as mediators in the ukraine conflict and yet america seems to be taking the front seat and stirring the pot as usual but european leaders as well protected the germans have also said very strongly that they are against u.s. extraterritorial sanctions against european companies working on not stream to so how does that work if american extra tauriel sanctions are wrong for europe for europe why are european exit or extra territorial sanctions ok when they're applied by europe against russia it just doesn't add up and i think the most sinister aspect of this this was the way that the european union followed slavish lee

follows the american administration in particular of course now that trump has got is on china we heard joe biden saying the other day that china he understood china had to be strong it had to suppress internal dissent in order not to become a victim on the international stage biden made an explicit apology for political repression in china and thing and of course that by also meaning in hong kong because he said that's how china worked and if it didn't do that then it would fall prey to external powers as an absolutely incredible thing to say about to a single party one party totalitarian dictatorship but europe with all its discourse about values it does the same thing. because. i think the fed to december taste at the end of december a few weeks ago. the european union the most boris defender of human rights in the world signed a multimillion investment package with china so the signal is no to russia and yes

to china but how does that work out only on the level of human rights to me it doesn't make sense at 0 in any and tempted to at the end of the day if we look at the relationship with the new russia with the end of the soviet union and the rise of the european union the europe brussels has just had a message in that they say they've never really deviated from rushing you must become more like us ok and up until you do that we're going to treat you as a junior partner we're going to lecture you and john brings up a such great point you know russia is is is singled out you know but not china not the other countries it's because they feel this need to save russia and this is in this this again is kind of. a morality play a post modern morality play to save the russian soul by genius go ahead come a great. duty wants to you know change russia interglacial itself and that's not

going to happen until the e.u. gives up on that project is this clear this underlying conflict and tension you know the specifics that really are the current situation the 1st success is that he has complete inability to see fakes from the russian point of view our example got deferral visit to moscow before he went to moscow he basically area austar statements relation to russia and when he gets there he raises all kinds of contentious issues in cohen. and then he saw acts of price on iraq surprised when he got some some russian russian push back what's going on there. the 2nd thing is that the e.u. european states seem to lost their best spirit. war. seem to cross the escalation you know so you know some people. in ukraine in the baltic states now have such talents or a flash lack any place she places lassie for example ok where more american shit i

don't know why they need to see that i've been dismissed abide by you know i mean what in what american national interest does the blacks the present i completely mystified by look let me go to and i think i mean you know. john and jeff brought up really good ideas is that you know i call it ideological possession they're possessed with their ideology and then it happens inability to look at a situation room a different angle all of us remember the cold war very very well and that's how we got through the cold war by saying well i won it getting inside the other guy's shoes that may seem us ok we survived the cold war because of not being on both sides ok but then there's the inability of continue that norma side of the european union i want to point out that you know when clinton 1st came to power he talked about you know is sick in new security arrangements from lisbon to lot of all star

and they stayed with that for a while and then had to say well you know enough is no need to keep giving our ideas ideas bring your security in arms and they don't listen because they're this is what i'm balancing relationship one has to take the knee and brussels of course cannot go ahead. well the war mongering is clearly on the side of america and i think there's been a great disappointment in russia. you know a few years ago already. they realized that medicare was not wanting to discuss security and that you were simply following not following the u.s. nato is total disarray because trump the finger or where it hurts you know all the europeans didn't pay for their dissidents so loudly as saying like was your mother omen thought the same john didn't say we can't be thomas' europe m. at centcom we've got reinforced nato i mean it's a total cockup. look at the relations with turkey turkey i mean come on they made

all these gas and they said greece with war and france sells its plans to go to greece and it's really terrible so nato is in december 7th bad state if only because mrs all of a was minister of defense of germany for 8 years which was a total disaster. but so it's very bad situation the situation out and as you say is quite dangerous because the younger generation doesn't realize the danger of the cold war and the fact that a country like ukraine is incredibly dangerous. and in an story but it was the e.u. that made it more dangerous than ever before when they signed an agreement with you know kobe in there in cagny been dried and they turned their back on them and pretended that they even if they didn't even know who he was it was

a disgrace what the european union did and it's a their fault well what what happened they should have turned around the next day and they should have sanctioned they'd be cool regime and say we know that we're going to stick by our agreement but no ok and of course you know that was a follow up but you know that was a take simulation of the new and telephone call which. we don't have to go into detail here but you know they wrecked the neighborhood in and they blame somebody else john go ahead. that's that's absolutely certain i mean we're going back 5 years now i mean that whole business was was horrible and unfortunately it carries on i think one conclusion that we should perhaps draw from this is that despite what everyone says. and i am conscious of saying this on r.t. russia does not have a substantial soft power program art is an extremely successful television channel and that's why everyone hates it but apart from r.t.

there isn't really very much and in particular the contrast is striking with china i made a point about the double standards on china a moment ago and the reason for these double standards on china is very simple money there is masses of chinese money flushing of sloshing around both in terms of university foundations commercial money obviously huge chinese form is all arrested and large parts of the political establishment in western europe and as we know in the united states and of course i'm thinking of the bidens here. in the pay of the chinese and it's very striking that russia maybe because she felt she had her fingers burnt with the soviet experience where the whole you know leadership of world communism ended up costing her a lot of money and she burned her fingers on it maybe for that reason but russia as

i say very much the opposite of what everyone says does not have a substantial soft power program in the world they don't they don't pay people air pay lobbyists at least not very much i'm not i'm not aware of them paying very many lobbyists and this may be one of the reasons why they why the relationship is so bad. it may simply be a matter of money you know one of the things that's really interesting and those that follow the intricacies of liberal politics inside of russians and we've had over the last year me. a number of liberals by definition. ok but they're looking at what's going on in the united states and the european union and they're horrified by this the postmodernist no cultural movements ok and you know liberals here like you know that they find themselves in a very difficult situation because the vast majority of people that you know in russia. and some of the people i know here in moscow they say we don't want your

culture and no way we don't want that here ok this is don pointed out. your family oriented tradition patriots super patriots ok and they him one of the things that happens that most people in the west don't understand is that all of the negative things said about russia in the media is and so we translated into russians and people know when people say about them and the same person i don't know anything about russia and how dare they say they're morally superior to us we don't need it bashing ok don't you know we did a horrible event what have you done lately west of not having seen a lot of people here so in just a barrel comes waltzing in and telling her everybody how they live their minds people even liberal say we don't want to go in addition to themselves in the butt with this. pizza is a conservative i'm a liberal i'm not actually sure. you know share

a lot of liberal really liberal criticisms of russian culture and understand russian society my position is just a show i don't want to impose on russia should be outside you know i do hope that there will be an evolution in truly new shouldn't she. if you look at it it could have brought direction but that's the last he's seeking some. peace agreement on john's point about russia's lackey. just. like at last. i feel i need a bit of the systems in trying to reset the russians a lot of shit to also so i would like also because of the motor bicycle seat one of the reasons that russia doesn't have the x. rays is because he does not see after the ambition to remake the well he's right down in the imposing right hours on the rest on what he thought he was doing.

so right near you know it's our stock our i'm doing the best about one man so i want to. brussels in torah but i'd like our viewers watching your ardent see you next time remember.

your. this hour's headlines stories thousands of women in the british army suffer harassment. from within their own. testimonies being heard parliament. often. feel. sorry. for. him calling vaccine nationalism. demanding the e.u. commission reconsider the move. after he labels.