it will develop in the midst of it putting animals on those on a. m option or county we're going underground for a special lockdown episode as britain one of the world's top financial services capitals issued new budget plans courtesy of former goldman sachs john sloan ritchie so knock they turn the show will be getting analysis rocks of universities professor danny dorling in the consult and editor of the london daily mail and drew p.s. but 1st joining me now from seafood in the suffix is the biographer of towering 20th century economist john maynard keynes nord skidelsky build scale ski welcome to going underground i want to get on to what you describe as a silent revolution going on there in this country about economics but as to this week's budget what do you make of it continued feeling amongst commentators

certainly that. we must understand the economics of a nation is the economics of a a grocery shop. yeah well that's the that's the standard line isn't it i mean they're not they're not connected the purpose of the budget is to balance their concert the nation that's what the purpose of a government's budget is and therefore it is the only grace show up so to speak it alone has access to money and it can print so in that sense the government isn't a tool like a grocer's shop a grocery shop your shop has to go to a bank if it gets into debt it borrows from bank it has to repay government to have to repay the government can borrow without limit technically it can simply print the money it wants to spend now that is a fact whether it wise to do so when you want to stop it by law from doing those

kinds of things that's a different matter but it can do it and if it wants to spend 3 $100000000000.00 in supporting the economy during the cove it it will spend $300000000000.00 and it'll tell the bank of england to provide the money which is in fact what the bank of england's been doing it's been financing the whole of the kovac 19 pandemic expenditure if you say the standard view when does it come from i mean you can. assure us all at the back of england we're call the city police city of london police and arrest the chancellor of the extract or v. doesn't balance the books no he won't do that the governor of the bank can go to the chancellor and say look you've given me an inflation target. i've got to make sure that inflation doesn't rise above 2 percent better the bank of england governor says now i think he says to the chancellor you're spending too much money

and therefore risking that inflation is going to go off 2 percent now you've given me the mandate to keep it to 2 percent therefore if you go on spending money at the rate your doing i will shut up interest rates and i will shove them up to any extent necessary any extent necessary to meet my inflation target and that means the money you borrow will the cost of the money you borrow chancellor will go up and up and up and in the end un be able to afford it any longer and much of it was which of course he will do despite him being an independent governor underbelly is this corruption between the so-called independence of the governor of the bank of england chancellor issues and some people would call it cool usually between a bank there and the treasury but the banks and others to call it coordination and

cooperation and and and therefore not not challenging the independence of the bank what the bank would say zoners the government spending doesn't push us up against our inflation target we are prepared to go on financing it without a loss of independence it's only if the government spending threatens to push prices up bombed the banks to get that the bank would then say stop. we do not want you to go on now whether the government pays any attention so that in the last resort any sovereign government can tell a bank to do what it wants in the last resort and therefore to that extent there's never a bank independence even the european central bank in the end it's the most independent central bank there is if the council of ministers spawn the set which sped up with

what you're doing you've got to do this rather than that there's no way an unelected bank can you know tell the politicians go to hell well i mean you know showing christine legarde the former i.m.f. was learning running the european central bank do you think the reason i used the word corruption you use the word collusion is that the accusations are leveled the chancellor is he's an ak about corruption whether it be known domiciles status he denies all wrongdoing of course why do you think he he well small businesses say attacked businesses the head of the c.b.i. saying that hacking a small business is that right rises in business tax and left amazon facebook the massive beneficiaries of the current a virus pandemic relatively untouched as regards tax well i think they haven't decided on a policy a proper policy towards the big that forms and they don't have

a policy this is not to be international. i mean these are global these are global things you can't just do you do small businesses they're your own they're your own concern you can do what you like with them preserve an economic historian what's that like looking as you find out that say the 20 pounds extra on universal credit for the poorest and the 20 percent of the british population is living in poverty that that 20 pounds over come the autumn and yet those companies. we have to give them time to for an international consensus about taxation for the richest companies on a well that's that's the reality of it i mean politics is the art of the possible isn't it it wasn't macchiavelli who said that just macchiavelli who said that but everyone said it never once known it you can it's much easier to tax small people than to tax large people have got to have more political will more more cooperation to do it i'm not saying you should but it's just

a bigger bigger bigger job and of course it's right people on universal credit should get more we did a report on that in parliament and it was intolerable were an awful lot they were doing to claimants but now they've only they're now only done the many raised it temporarily. the upper limit and they should make it permanent. so yes i'm not i'm not i'm always you know the government says giving the government says it's giving in other ways it is giving to this 20 percent of the population. that are under the poverty line. what do you think also that there is 00 pounds budgeted for the effect of the pandemic come the next fiscal year well this is a very very serious point you say. is going to go on until until september

he's an hour and that says going to extra $60000000000.00 but what they're expecting is that the furlough money will tail off as the economy recovers so as the and the for cost is that we'll be back to where we were before bye bye by the middle of next year why do they think the economy's going to recover so quickly because they think there's a lot of pent up demand that there's a lot of savings that people haven't been able to spend and then as the shops and entertainment places reopen people will flock to these places with their extra spending power and that'll make the whole thing revived but if you look at it realistically i'm very skeptical about this because national income has full it's fallen by 10 percent cent in 2020 that means savings of their own you know some people will have extra savings but what about all those whose incomes have full and

they're not going to have extra spending power that's an interesting way of looking at it obviously is not the way the former goldman sachs banker is she sort of looks at it i mean i have to ask the biographer of keynes what do you think john maynard keynes would have thought of the british government insinuating a thought of soviet system of firm or effectively i mean presume he knew the cambridge spies but do you think he would be amused or do you think he would have backed or do you think he would have been surprised by a response which involved the soviet ties ation of the country in the sense of for . well you know there are many ways he would have he would have wanted the economy supported while there was this big downturn sure but how you support it whether you supported by giving people. a paid holiday or an indefinite amount of time and just paying their wages well you do it that way whether you try and give them work you

see what we've forgotten about as the old concept of public works i mean in some spin for hand when when the government spent money to spend money on keeping people in work and if they were being made on employed by their companies the government did work now and i'm in favor of a work work guarantee for people especially for young people and as we come out of code i would have much preferred instead of the firm no money going on and on and on until september that some of it at any rate was given to local authorities and and with the with the with the mandates spend it on what you need doing in your area there one of the world leading arms exporters and there's an arms credit guarantee fund aren't public works can't keynesian militaristic public works. obviously manifest in the war on you have been selling weapons to saudi

arabia the building of weapons the trident obviously a multi-billion pound expansion there do you think that's the way the government are seeing your keynesian public work expansion no i don't think so because i think that's normal we're talking about people who are being made on employed because small businesses are closing going bankrupt and or cutting down on their staff and rather than keeping that population on 1st. i would try and provide work for them and especially young people it in a. it's it's not just the headline on employee that we'll to be worrying about lots and lots of people on short time work part time work there's 20101520 percent of the population which is really only very low precarious income so he will again the

government might come back at you and say well in this week's budget there was plenty of talk all 3 ports and the idea of us being i don't know like. caribbean tax haven in the north sea. you don't think that could be one post brics a future that would benefit the people you're talking about well i think i think there's a good a very very very promising the i dare sleep or i mean it's good but you know it's not going to it's not going to do anything for us in the next year it goes back to the enterprise zones that was started in in the thatcher periods in over 5 years of cool shoots a very very good at i'd add i'd actually read what i'd have hong kong on call a broad just for people in the u.k. because lots of people are leaving leaving wanting to leave hong kong because of the new regulations and the oppressive regulations give give the most reports in

the u.k. so i think the whole idea is good but it's not going to solve the problem of the collapse of an economy of 10 percent that's happened this year and it's not going to guarantee any rapid recovery nets 2 year olds could l.c. thank you after the break more on a budget in a country with some of the poorest financial and medical coronavirus records in the world. the 21st century america is exhausted it's just tired and it doesn't have anything approaching more by. china after being on the margins for so long does have something to prove and they do have a capacity and they are fighting each other to the whale and they are working. during the vietnam war u.s. forces also bombs neighboring laos it was

a secret war. and for years the american people do not know. how much it is officially a mouse country per capita. human history millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country jordyn wieber. even today kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago is the us making amends for the tragedy in laos what helped to the people need in that little land of mines. welcome back to this u.k. budget special let's go straight to oxford to speak to oxford university's often akin to professor danny dorling his latest book is slow down the end of the great acceleration president enjoying thanks so much for coming back on the show you've written book of the book about wealth disparity who has money who doesn't richie sooner what did you make of his budget you think he deliberately wants to punish

the poor or he doesn't understand your work or he sees a different world to yours. i'd be amazed if which he seemed that could ever come across my work i doubt it's recommended to him some his officials tell him that what he's doing is reducing inequalities and it's possible that he may not realize they're not telling him the truth if last year when he did the budget last year they produced a report saying oh look at the reduction we've done in income inequality but to the polls they reference they've said it didn't increase so the government mislead self chanceless the exchequer repeatedly in the conservative party mislaid themselves that somehow and using the gap they're not and certainly this budget they have that the i.f.'s of come out their strongest ever criticism of any budget is this budget over what it does even the baby say. it was very doubtful about any claims being

made this budget would in some way help poor people you case a man in the b.b.c. haven't heard of them there who are some talk about an 800000000000 missed in the treasury recently i mean this is a civil service is thurmond's or advisors who might be misinforming the chancellor if we are going to forgive him for threatening the removal of universal credit increases of 20 pounds in the autumn i think in in the treasury over time chancellor support comes surrounded by a particular set of civil servants with particular set of beliefs ones that fit the conservative party so for instance a lot of money has been spent on the budget trying to prop up house prices again a new kind of help to buy the kind of prices are as possible and the certainty of belief in the treasury that the higher house prices are the better business doing so you can see they have money to spend when they want to spend it they can reduce taxes on stamp duty again to try to keep house prices are these are deliberate

choices over their priorities but they can't keep 20 pounds a week extra universal credit after september. you know the civil servants all say and the cabinet secretary would say they are completely impartial they've always been impartial and forget the idea of continually encouraging the housing market and the freezing fuel duty that environmentalist on about 3000000000 on the n.h.s. is still going to go on the long term plan and the chancellor on said criticism about fraser in n.h.s. spending would saying 40 hospitals 50000 nurses 20000 police i'm not sure that's to replace the nearly 1000. election campaign and 29 day not like we've i think i've been hearing about these 40 hospitals where over 2 years now because they will be a bit. we don't know how big that they have a very small but 40 of all that's all it doesn't get your our service we're

spending it let's spread or gerry's for your schools is a sound that always johnson used in this election let me even come up with a new sound bite letter likes to really get it. and just very briefly on coronavirus i know you've written about the geographical spread of it and an enormous relatively low number obviously britain is the worst in europe in london as compared to areas of the countryside do you think that will continue. well hopefully we have on the state downward slope of weight and hopefully this is towards the end of pandemic but it's not just the worst in europe. we are near the top of the worst in the world. 18 that for every 10000 people who were alive at the start of 2020 the death toll from the pandemic is now around

the same level as the death toll from austerity in the years before the preventive which which i p p r said was 131000 people so we've had by far the worst pandemic outcome in europe and that's despite having had seen so many frail elderly people die before the pandemic began president going thank you will the morristown think government budget here in the u.k. will arguably be seen through the lens of our only darkened media joins me now from london is under piers consultant editor of one of britain's and the world's most clicked media organizations the daily mail and jury thanks for coming back on going underground as lock down special budget edition what did you may give people an universal credit they'll lose their 20 quid or term and i don't know if you have shares in facebook or amazon the great news is. alleged tax dodgers. well there are less absolute as you say they are sas of use and i was

a disappointment this chancery she said you know that who is who had to say i would argue probably even more difficult to crash easy 1008 because well i mean injuring us all to tell you blair about. these even more complicated for a prime minister to do if the ceremonial several are all syria who are the enemies not security the regime will you not see that i'm the prime minister loose coalition government united causes united this is different because the daily enemy is heavy surf grazing lands of late he resists the army sensations or lack sassy's straightaway so personally will go out and learn spanish next year after that since as he 3 will be frozen be hunky corporations that horrify it yes on the one hand but if they have to race as hats. on the corporations

crawfish rather wacky on the a c. wacky old people's even sas war v.a.c. is no mean corporation to have a profit to have inthe corporations businesses who have profits of $50000.00 pounds a year the messages per se is a massive 250000 r.c.s. if you're below that you'll be ok but already said and see 1000000 pounds at this task from one issue i can recall in a very long time i have a hunch you know i see this each year in our region or less she says the $23.00 which is low bad news is person of uncivil head and nest year we're expecting gross unprecedented seminar that is dramatic now i saw a dramatic arc to the. story it's actually called only all code was. or worse. 300 years so dramatically increase growth next year you don't get

a jobs back. then groups are selling 7073 and laura sessions if you still believe her he says i'm the man and i'm the man when of course even the speaker has a calm and said. here's your budget speech riches or neck but most of it i mean in the press earlier how do you think martha jones is viewing the p.r. spin coming from number 11 downing 3 heat credit is due soon assholes eat at work never is it arson as it so much use economies in such a place that the ends are not all truth. that war. is such a large suv not disagreeable and if he needs shots it's easy just to be successful boris johnson yes winston s. an action he prices lead and that's actually good to see inside he the word out badly isn't got me marie and he wants to get out into the crowd he says will become

also very quickly he's young johnson even johnson's mother egg cruelty that even johnson minority. yes i see you don't see that question in this. post that a nice on story and says he's innocent mary cary last musri mumbling about how much. the polls are people say since. there's no peace are here is about us it like a leader. is an. assay has been again soon or that he's his economic policy so yes racing corporations ask the governments he's hiring who pose. well it seems excessive. areas of the year you know we've now given needy 40 percent people. disagree and me there he said

remain as you know i've been very quiet about that in the european union hasn't because it's accusing reporter for the 2nd time breaking international law over the island protocol and the border and you think that some sort of getting back a brit over the vaccinations there was a lot to break it was an absolute lie counted in tandem. massey said to me by sight in brussels commercial or the place like the british government's always always the essential power is there anything like the massiah oh. and they can be a long serving actually horrid cold is it not drug your he commission. we well it's going to be a precedent i'm disappointed that it has a british sas because if we can i think we could or chaps more countries to invest in britain we could come to see for your well our corporations have either worries

us 25 percent below the average and considering it's only 5 but there's ross's 30. 2 yeah only front may you go and you know i may. a drunk just says he likes a drink of being like the maffia and back to so neck i suppose you see in the magazine private eye talking about his personal links to non domiciles do you think there are personal signs that we should watch for is regarding actual corruption in a former goldman sachs executive i mean were all of these free zones that he's announcing which around the world are known for a known for corruption arguably i know you probably back these free zones but britain's ports going to be like those of. nations that are accused of smuggling larry idea and let's try and it's. going to be a lot many. real market see. your

source of corruption. just because he was a very successful bank that he's married to be yes to also he's also very success you know right. you know set success is just sad. when you're a mother you know. we see. all the success very very one can see exactly. what they say. we see you know. easy less popular members of the front line. shots actually. we'll have to get back to what private eye said about you at another time actually more than the budget of the people of britain and many people around the world will be looking to this feud in the royal family you've been very mean to markell talking about the wearing diamonds of saudi crown prince

a moment when someone why you attacking meghan markle and their oprah winfrey interview when when prince andrew i think is wanted by the f.b.i. for questioning. that means and you resorts to all to him and i think he should talk to the f.b.i. he tells me. he wants to talk to us a suspect just to help raise. isa insaf. u.s.c. anywhere he's disappeared from. the revelation that. she really meant starr who left the panacea to say the same thing. no he's denying that this e-mail uses people lest the sheep are just an unmade margulis jesus asked our warrior who are else here she takes a fairly or it's worth millions in the crowd this area missy who has asked us when

it shall we allow this enemy christian who did what he now sit in the same restaurant as us to any use she will as if we do then 3 nice article. in slightly crown trees with salt to all did that murder was murder in the forms and shots up nights in a saudi embassy and she started her start knowing the press it gosh they are expensive wonder agent rock she didn't say oh yes into the office and just that is it so are known. for her crown prince she's got questions to answer and she's got questions to ask about how she. does it she has it makes you look rather hypocritical and carries a little to campaign against if you take on the police taking over. ok well sure you know where the crown jewels actually come from her the queen west so

somewhere where there are some atrocities apparently as well and the piers thank you for that there for the show we're back on monday but until then go underground with horror. and videos will be true. since that other boy days of and. come along with me pay them is going to. live up to him i'm. 33 so. frankly. i'm just the type to use a pen and part of me in the next just mom i'm going to. use

and feel good in though it is a. little too large room with nothing it would be good and it was on those on the other. headlines this hour the slovak prime minister rejects schools not. the vaccines the country's vaccination campaign gets bogged down by politics also to come you can measure what is right the government offers them a playwright's of just one percent and a dream holiday that turned into a nightmare he told her passenger of an italian cruise ship that suffered a break resulting in the deaths of 3 people. will be refused to inform us that what cases approved that aboard the ship the day it tested positive there was no suspicion that. they've refused to give us information.