legacy still remains the subject of hot ideological debates it's puzzling that his brain child perestroika was unstudied more casually by social scientists what happens to system when it reaches its structural limits this question is just as pressing for capitalism today as it was for socialism some 40 years ago geddy experience of this obvious collapse of for any celebration for the bursting at the seams capitalist system well to discuss that i'm now joined by a if you're good then look at professor of social research and public policy at new york university abu dhabi and call it their own das capitalism have a future professor though again it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time thank you you know it never it ceases to amaze me how that perception of a book may change with time and i think yours is a good example because when it was 1st published 70 years ago it was quite

a star i think it was back with some of position if not indignation but when i read it some day in the midst of all big changes brought forth by the call it magic pandemic i cannot find a single controversial point in it isn't it striking how the discourse on capitalism changed just in the last 5 or 6 years it was predictable still it is striking a little we spray can get and when you see this happening in social games the most difficult part is not predicting the trend. predicting to speed 20 years ago we got together with several great major actually historically sociologists who study. the development of social evolution since engine damia you know so all historical systems. and going extinct so we study a warrant do the systems arise and how do they come up and look we've all noticed

that in economics for instance you know there is not even if the. decline of capitalism you know there's something going touchable because capitalism always will or comes to its crisis not so well in fact you know if your co-author is randall collins and emanuel it was that our famous in publicized circles for having predicted the and to all that the the soviet union all the way back in the 1970s but when they started saying that capitalism is also approaching its its advantage structurally that it was perceived as almost an ideological betrayal isn't that because that many people in the west see a chapter as more than just an economic system as something that is a much much bigger perhaps even sacred ideology it is a major blinder in social science. it's ever present and

of course you know people who say no my faith favorite example is the charles darwin to almost mother century to share his theory with the rest of society because he was a good english country gentleman. because kid just understood that if he tells you know his fellow churchgoer so no originate from monkeys you know he will never be able to go to the church again you know some there will proprietors of the moment and vegas was. as in the $1007.00 just it was almost impossible to discuss collapse of communism because it would be considered crazy you know president reagan was campaigning on catching up and no containment of communism so he says this is quite normal it's predictable in a human reactions are natural this now in your book you wrote that something big was looming on the horizon in the early 2000 pan 101113 maybe

meaning ad structural crisis much bigger than the great recession a sense that we pass until here and they are that a major global recession didn't sat in and still be. loyal condemning iraq i'm still waiting for that big something or has it already arrived he got asked not noticing it. oh i wish i could answer that question and you know i got to be prophetic i don't know you know it's a very much a structural process. so with predicted the fundament one of us raise the issue you know so what if and you play happens and so we are sitting around the table discussing our book so it is they are in the conclusion so what about the war well look if nuclear war happens and we do believe it no that did all it's actually much

greater than in the trenches century with the inevitable proliferation of nuclear weapons. what happens if the area is a new disease and these are what we called him on the rebels it's an it's extremely difficult to ponder however it's very much like the fashionable topic of climate in history. it doesn't strike on its own somehow it always strikes this is ideas which are already weakened by something and we see in this weakening mostly in the west i'm cooler not necessarily in the whole world system you know because jobs have been leaving the west industrial good industrial jobs and social guarantees but they were growing somewhere so they were going bolstering asia and we see a much more assertive china now and turkey this is where the jobs are weapons and the question therefore it should be. struck surely no so once these are enchant

empires very proud of themselves empires there are forget will they've been. so what happens with these asian powers that be in grief late hit by this migration of capital should we expect another bout of world wars because this is usually what happened historically so we'll look into history and we try to understand what caused. another unique warse because these are rare occurrences and why do we have to go so deep in history because we really don't have another planet to study no so we have one humanity. and we don't have met many comparative cases signal so capitalism is something quite unique and that's why it is actually very difficult to make predictions from capitalism. is comparable only to late roman empire not even mentioned imponderables earlier and i want to bring out one more of

them the american cell with the last couple of decades have been pretty liberal with that money press but if we look at the data from last year it's pretty am precedented they empty measure an indicator of the total supplying off dollars has increased by almost a quarter it's already at 18 trillion dollars such a rapid growth has never happened before or at least not in recent history i know you are not an economist but do you think it has any. relation to the main thesis self of your book which is the crisis of capitalism or yes. joe on. the great dunny gold you missed the dight. injuries i think they naturally had you know then we started writing. it you know just and himself of course coming from a very old capitalist family in milan. and he give notice to know that there are

a very long cycle in a secular cycles when one of capitalists orus surges. ahead of others they become the track players but in the so very much like then is gina and florence in the renaissance italy once we're there we will wonder if you know who bates what we could under all unfold a renaissance somebody paid for these little expensive who paid for rembrandt for their mere you know them you know the bottom process tool the netherlands and then british empire but what happens with the british empire by that it war of the end times so it's kind of in a. calm before collapse we had that in the 1990 s. in america now that will allow these powers when they fall out it's no longer possible to invest into productive. expansion they invested into finance they were under to speculation so generally these lombardy americans. into

17 hundreds the british and late victorian we've already an age you know and then the united states after the crisis of the 1970s you know shift into finance can go on for quite a while and in fact it is amazing for how long the united states could juggle it well into the crisis here tonight in 7 minutes and beyond and that's all that surprising because it's not only the american currency but it's also the main reserve friends have there were also stocks m.c.i. having their breasts danced and you correctly that you're essentially see that as these large cities on the eve of a out of a major disaster when people are trying to get as much as they can just because they have a fielding's i can't think of things collapsing for this and. i am very afraid you know because historically this was always a result in a big war. you know this is. very much like we are playing

a very sophisticated 3 dimensional chess and at some point you reach for a break and heat your opponent you know that's how it happened you know with just one catholic warse that's how it happened with the boy and it warse with the rise of hitler in germany so these is why you know we do have reasons to worry we might hope you know that this could be a void that's why we are raising alarm because very much like collapse of soviet there are 3 big events and in modern accused 3 which could not be predicted because they were ridiculous. ridiculous it was world well one because nobody really can see that what would happen if you deploy assault and machine guns on the on site against the called a machine guns because this was always done against zulu warriors will do so that he strikes me as a. french revolution no serious french politician would could ever ever

accepted that somebody will like all disappear to become leader of the country and we will deplete it was impelled to rebel and the collapse of soviet union because again you know so that was incomparable even pull. this audience themselves and that saved the russia you know because russia crash landed it wasn't plunder a lot until it actually happened presidential got to take a very short break the people back in just a few moments. the biden ministration is still young but its foreign policy particularly in the middle east is an echo of past failures this industry should simply just not have

a learning curve also does washington really support democracy in the world ukraine's crackdown on independent media to do business all cars. welcome back to worlds apart with your good ole guy professor of social research and public policy at new york university ended up being a whole 3rd capitalism and have a future professor dahl again before the break we were talking about some of the signs. pointing to these structural weaknesses of the capitalist system and one mentioned the expansion in the currency mass

a lot of experts mention it to logic down graham ation as a direct outcome of this drill strive for a profit i think there is one more example which is far more immediate and i would cite the american experience with the call it 19 condemning as i think. one of the reasons why this country particularly was struck so hard at much. much more strongly than other nations is because of the very formidable account of the american nations which i personally attributes you a combination of who drug and marketing policies over the last 50 or 60 years reach produced an enormous rates of obesity and berrisford of all the diseases spread and the population now that's my opinion do you see any correlation between the american experience of the call that 19 and s out of values or assumptions on which american capitalism app has been operating. thank you arsenal you know

you just help me explain why is it actually all so complicated because there are so many shows and site shows growing call sunil danielle slim which one you choose for analysis so it's very much like play in late medieval europe black death in this searching for jews so was a dream really complicit in the end of european feudalism it was and didn't anyway . let me tell you know that we believe that there are us and we global trends which are music gate against capitalism you mentioned one of them into our mental digger a day sion however usually this is discussed in government very moralistic tenor bad bad capitalism greedy and therefore if we become less greedy you know ever ever sink will be all right greed is not capitalism and there is no american government

as there is only global it has always it been global fight from truth here and there are 3 things if you're like me not true at least there are costs 500 years ago my jury of people in the world wept essence they produce their own food you didn't have to think about their old age because they either died or they had their families to take care of them no you have to have social welfare environment you didn't care about how many dreams your child doll well the 1st time it happened since the 1960 s. and know that we do care and war a living in reality doesn't help so many trees lack i mean that they've not cited it in more and more looks like you suddenly have a natural reaching their killin it. well because there is one planet it's not that capitalism is fully a little to the social and environmental cost of it there is even

a concept of i think it's political antics ation you know a special tax on goods and services that that produce negative effects analogous you know if i die means to the side even though it was always very difficult to accurately calculate that damage but apart from that do you think there's any other at south correct that correcting mechanism within catalyst which will prevent it from becoming a snake eating its own tail a share of course consuming everything else sounded this is where we should have started what is capitalism because this is not just market because the market to gone amiss ever existed before capital is no longer go i could tell you a lot about assyrian traders in the 19th and 20th century b.c. and they were very good at least tickle rave you know that and they were importing more to be called them as they were village fair where you know read great french

historian fare not all dead the old beast. do shoemaker and the fish are cannot make much profit simply because they have face to face interacting in the same village you know they are exchanging used values epochal isn't is a bolt dropped so it's a whole profit making so my question actually lived a profit making under signal cross at making our social profit making 5 proconsul profit i don't know whether it's actually you know since there is some so ask yourself will capitalism be still profitable so this is with aggression that we close it you know it's off to all these self-correcting taxes after wheat factory in everything else you know too much taxation. with this ruling griffiths when jamie's multinationals are the global market will this ruin breath that was going to say i think i can be

a down's advocate here because we're not just. talking about taxation if you're talking about the let's say national business maybe there is an issue with profitability but when you. look at the transnational corporations they're raking in norma's amounts of money you know m p 3 tax them a little bit more they will still be profitable by very very high margin and i think this is actually don't you think that this is this kind of debate that you know increasing taxes is bad for business will make capital is not profitable is actually something that serves don't read very well because they're making a lot of money out of our private data out of things that they don't well they create you know and as such huge resources into it and they did the amounts of profit that they're getting from all of that cost is enormous and has never been like that in the human history so is it only about taxation doesn't that actually

challenge your. your thesis that capitalism would not be profitable if you tax it you highly i mean there are different kinds of capitalists i guess well you know profits historically and not believe you're a far right they became hard and we have data on don't you know so there are quite a few historically call them a sinner who did the. taxes became serious between world war one. and in 1000 seventies you know why you know because. there were world wars there was a threat of communism and there was a spread of fascism and it was better to pay off this is why social democracy like scandinavian social democracy became possible so profitability him yes you know they can sucker fice some of the profits you know the capitalists might be scared you know but look what scare that so that's the question today what happened in the

1970 s. and a white fixation about in daraa the berlin to ration of all sure of this to nations and of course leases it open secret everybody well governments in the world have enough capacity to learn where the money is there is no political will why there is no political will you know because that's how the politics function since the 1970 s. globalization was essentially an escape from taxation. you know escape into safe havens and escape into cheap brother action basis in asia somewhere that's all you know so that's why you know you leave behind the western workers. they become not the workers but welfare recipients you can send them to school for ever you know which as you see what is happening you know so many students there you can even dramas them are guaranteed income so that they don't rebel but they will vote for populists as a result so these are all there is a fear of i mean a system in

a time and again i'm coming back to roman empire bread and circuses because that's the only president we have now let me mention him when my term because i promised our viewers in the beginning and we haven't talked about that. yet there is a strike on iran he complained before in some other ancient you with some regret i guess that. that phenomenon hasn't been static very carefully by social scientists in structural terms and not i'm mad not in them or as non non not an ideological trance but in terms of structural analysis why do you think that's important and do you think if the golfer and is not a solution then at least understanding why that the cattery system is not dealing with it that's a very good question and also the question is posed and also rest assured to know that there are people asking bit. i was once maybe several years ago

i was asked to fly to on the european very nice capitals babe a business class i agreed because i ask you know what the conferences are bald and they told me in response the usual c. ok so that's really going to become interesting so i find myself in a nice kind of media will resist a library a restyled with glass and still to date on the one side of the table prominent experts on the collapse of soviet union on the other side of the table the men who and their women and introduce themselves as call me handle it i was doing back well i'm advising the prime minister of my country you know that was all you know so they wanted to see with that there was anything to be learnt from the collapse of soviet union so that the european union could be more secure i don't think these

were obsessed directly because they were different creatures however i know that there is a very basic realisation in you know the elites can mess up so i mentioned already french revolution who a more sophisticated than the french political elites in the age and central hundreds of years of experience in court intrigue and in diplomacy and yet they the log for the french revolution because they never imagined it happens and the same with the soviet union you know i never expected to be a professor in a american university and speak in english now. but this happened in the elites can mess up do not trust the good judgments of elites you know they might be very intelligent let me at nasa be a little bit more specifically in that question because here you wrote in your book that whatever transformation. calculus may take it will definitely not

result in c. of the fortress type of mentality of the soviet union and if they look around it well it's hard not to come to a conclusion that this is already happening in that they call it making it seem conscious 1st. behaving very selfishly in securing supplies and now sort of reverting to self-sufficiency economic self-sufficiency predicated on the need to provide for that own citizens i know it's not common isn't but if you really looks like everybody is for themselves for now much more so than i bet you with imagine that when you were writing your book so. again i know you cannot say that for sure but in terms of intuition which way do you think this system and the capitalist system will go because right when you talk about the end of capitalism it's sounds very political but both you and i understand that nothing disappears forever and

the soviet union didn't disappear if it gave birth to russia as may know it today so what for i. think that transformation will take based on the traffic the general radio apps are there always siri possibilities and only 3 possibilities in social i mean. one is extinction you know member told 60 you know there are quite a few human societies which are extinct. i don't think it's going to that it could happen you know because what you describe picture of a reaction to call it done demick. their allies how similar it is to the great depression of 929 and the rise of fascism and go for the ration of a war in the 19th thirties and thus why communism in the soviet union was actually not an ideological obstruction you take over immediate 3 mobilization machinery from world war one and the rest will flow you know including good luck including

propaganda secret police so they are out to help us ability so no one has your goal to a next stage something more more complex and let me come back to this later and you can get stuck it's cold involution this same only smaller so in many respects actually russia is kind of involuted soviet union minus communist ideology but it's still sending oil he still has nuclear weapons. number 3 as go into a next stage so i mentioned you know that in the beginning capitalism. was actually cost free because there were dozens and dozens took care of themselves the biggest problem is internalization of costs over production social reproduction you have to pay for schools. for retirement something which was done by naturally going by village communities you also have to pay for environmental reproduction. these are

all costs so the question is what kind of organisation globally can bear such a cost and there is no such organisation in sight and it will take no global problems must him global solutions and we don't have anywhere in sight told this happens typically in houston or some kind of earthquakes must happen 1st and then as the russians say you know we start to cry stunning themselves and something may change so we're coming to get press and we have to leave it there but thank you very much for sharing it with us today. our pleasure and thank you for watching call to syria again next week on the walls of part of.

this is. the heat actually physically pulled it out of the ground you would have well well well well well well well well well well. there's a lot of money with the oil and with that comes. a lot of a lot of people from all over the country. you know make a $100000.00 a year. as a minimum there's an issue. there need be. they were told 16 hours

a day hard work will work is not easy. and so. they want to relieve their stress and how do they relieve their stress these men and move that outlet these men that comfort these many. people have been murdered up here people been raped there are massive drug issues up here you have a boom you have everything else that comes along with money. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person with those great. snow day or thinks. we dared to ask.

in our review of the week right here on r.g.p. international slovakia becomes the latest in the country to receive russia as its would be vaccine that's out of the block struggles to get its own vaccination program off the ground. russia now plans to complete a hat trick of homegrown vaccines the latest a jab named coby back is expected to be launched later this month we speak to the head of the institute behind. them you know but the clothes that were put in do not have to prove the prestigious institution in the products it makes the institute is 60 years old and it's connected to the victory over polio and yellow fever and we deliver drugs for these diseases abroad so we don't need any promotion.