if you want to see more about what we're talking about this tuesday check out our t. dot com or of our social media but for now here in moscow it terms it was exactly 30 minutes past the hour if you've got to go and watch the clock and got to do something that they have a good day and maybe catch again late. bad . you were a police were going to home site instead of talking about a murder case you're going to get into. you leave that up. i just sat here watching 5 minutes. you're not going home tonight i can guarantee they. won't come back to wrongful conviction with your use of the law today we're going

to be doing a deep dive into it with an issue that is fascinating exhibits to our founding which is the phenomenon of false confessions and my guest today is going to be jane fisher already also currently working on 4 cases involving false confessions and each is fascinating its own way so jane while some confession and jane is an attorney who is an expert on false confessions jane how did you get into this work i was a public defender in manhattan here in new york city for about 3 years and we saw a lot of police misconduct you know we were doing arraignments up until 1 am in the morning and you see people beat up or you know people whose cases get dismissed who get no compensation so my husband and i left the legal aid society with the hopes of doing civil rights work. my name is old castle i'm

a distinguished professor of psychology at john jay college of criminal justice once a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that is a problem with all of this is that the or tactics that can be used to get innocent people and i don't just mean vulnerable innocent people i mean people who are sitting around in this room to confess to crimes they didn't commit. 2 anytime you do an exoneration case where there's been a false confession it's like trying to write a trice. everybody's already against you the person's been convicted by

a jury the judge thinks he's guilty the jury thinks he's guilty now you have to convince everybody that they're wrong. so a case that you're deeply rested and is a case of an alien ship who has been in prison for 20 years renee lynch. was a case we took about 2 and a half now maybe 3 years ago now and she was accused and convicted of killing her landlord in buffalo new york in 1995. and it's also obvious if confession cases the police are going crazy and if they can't solve it 18 months go by and renee's connection to the victim was that it was her landlord and so they are start looking into renee who at the time was heavily

addicted to drugs crack cocaine and because she gets arrested for something else and they start interrogating her and she confesses to killing her landlord with this guy karim so she says kareem and i went to my landlord's house we were going to rob her the robbery goes bad and kareem stabs her. century can make it a felony murder being present during the commission. crime somebody gets killed we started sort of doing you know just regular google searches on the players' names and detectives and everything in this t.v. show women behind bars comes up and they've done an episode or news case where they got in the in the prison and interviewed her and then interviewed this joseph was the cop on the case the way her body. when she decided to go you just saw it was time to told the truth. i believe her confession is kind of nonsense there's inconsistency between the physical evidence and what she says and during the show

he says well i mean we knew that corinne walker was in florida at the time of our crime. kareen was afforded to. i guess they knew kareem walker was in florida at the time the crime then rene's confession can't possibly be true because she's confessing to going to rob the landlord with karim and the defense been able to put that on her confession would have made no sense but the defense was never told. the whole thing is so full of holes and so bogus i can't put my finger out and say like you know this is the thing but i think if we dug in it we could find that thing that could get her out because it's all. it's just all of it so it's messed up how do they record this confession and didn't know i mean they make you know they typed it up and then read it to her and made her so and so there is

a type of confession is the only version of the confession there's no like original notes they have or something that we have. to wonder about. she says details about the crime scene because they showed her photos of it. that she you know how the body was lying be shown her those photos. of some kind of new evidence. didn't exist at the time of the trial. or didn't didn't exist at the time a tro but it wasn't known right and it wasn't presented during the trial and then we have to show that it. could have been a different outcome and. i think we can but it's going to be hard. our goal is of course to get renee out of prison but it can take a really long time sometimes many years and one of the 1st things we do in cases

like this is to comb through the confession and find all the consistencies to clearly show that the confession is false. and there's a cream walker drove me to 90 longmeadow m. hearse the plan was i was going to go into the front door and cream was going to come up the back door. he was going to tie her up with a piece of white extension cord that he brought with him at babson time kareem hit louise in the side of the face and louise fell to the floor and kind of went out if that happened he would be standing punching her here right. on creams head here in the face he knocked the wig off a wig landed on the floor in the kitchen. kitchen. he tried to tie louise up with the plastic or he had then carry comes from behind louise he stabbed her at

least twice however we know it's 8 times. louise fell to the floor again it was a large amount of blood on the floor next to her body so the only thing she gets right is that the way gets knocked off that there's a plastic cord involved in this case that's correct and the phone cord is where the extra d.n.a. is. i'm missin the it's gene fisher barry alston rene lynch's attorney i have a call with her this morning. thinks. i. oh. i oh. oh oh. oh oh. 000000000000 i quite. i. oh

i know it's hard. i. went to trial she testified. very incoherent she was high during the trial. was she was not a good witness for her so she recanted right away afterwards and her confession is that it was a coerced when. i would never say contests when people say i've been talking about this for 30 years and that's the 1st thing everybody says but it wouldn't happen today it's not one kind of person that gives a false confession we are all under the circumstance of interrogation we all know

there are trained detectives i've spoken to who say i can get anybody to trust to them from any of the logos that they have a 95 percent confession rate. and see a lesser of a lesser near perfect identifying the perpetrator that is every suspect you identify is the perpetrator if you've got a confession at that level you're producing a whole lot of false confessions when i talk to her about it she explains to me. i was so shocked that they convicted me she said because there was no evidence of a confession so powerful it can stand alone so here's the jury on the one hand they've got the confessions of the one they know they've got. the confessions trumped the d.n.a. changes everything is sometimes i've likened the final product of a confession to hollywood production is scripted by the police theory of the case is rehearsed and. action camera ready to go. and that's

what the jury sees they don't see the whole production they just see the final i don't see how the judge or jury can look past a false confession if they don't see the pros and. we have a number of documented cases in which the person who falsely confessed actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior. which is. a whole nother level of insanity and some of them believe it for a long time afterwards. you can see that there you. see here.

in the melted thompson case we had he was a danish inturn who came. he was a danish he was a college student studying to become a teacher and he came and interned at i.p.s. which is really you know like a $20000.00 a year preschool up by the u.n. and it was a code teacher who accuses me of molesting all the kids in the class. and he's on the cover of the daily news they take his focus his facebook profile pictures him with his niece on his shoulders so they put that on the cover of the daily news and write sex monster and they go arrest him in the morning and bring him into the station and they have a female cop interrogate him she tells him well you know we have video of you molesting these kids which they had videos but he's not molesting anybody so they had this woman who accused him had taken videos of him in the classroom interacting

normally with children and so either the cops had watched it or they had watched it and were blatantly lying to him but there was no video of him molesting kids but he hears that right and he thinks holy well if i'm on video i must have done it right they let him continue to believe this lie that he's cut red handed on tape molesting these kids and i think that that you know he started you could tell through the hole when they finally are recording him he's doubting himself you know he's he's wondering did i do this. some control for a middle close to home. most of them are very hardworking people who want to get ahead that is either have some some health issues or have some strict about luck

a full time job moon told me he's paying for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get you a victim to gunpoint if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. you better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted anyone that's homeless is treated like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the case see how it is to be pull in the world's richest country. this is crude oil. so they need to actually physically hold it out of the ground you would have well well well well well. there's a lot of money with fuel and with that comes. a lot of lot of people from all over

the country. if you don't make a $100000.00 a year. as a. physician. here in the. they were told 16 hours a day of hard work will work it's not easy work and so they want to relieve their stress and how do they relieve the stress these men back out he's the men that comfort these men that. people have been murdered up here people been raped they're massive drug issues up here you have a boom you have everything else that comes along with money. mr thompson. can you tell me why. i'm here because in order.

for inappropriate. behavior it was. ok so why don't you tell me. privately and how this started what happened you know what. you know well. and remember just had to go down just a few moments about. a. missing. person in the. head thing and. this is a. place and place in her own mind. to insular in my shorts and.

you know short of going forward in that or question where you're going. and so what when you say gave him pleasure at one time that the central. of it would have to be. i don't know you know. a member of it it's like there's none of it and if you read out the statement i did that's your handwriting and if you just listen to her briefly does it look like it's been changed in any way. and that's your signature on the range of your it is out here today you're going to show it to the camera. i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to you i think most people would think that if i am speaking to

a police officer he's telling me the truth but now to tom's i mean in denmark it's illegal for the police to lie to you so he really was was really says extra susceptible to something like that it took us filing the civil rights suit to even get access to these tapes the district attorney wouldn't give it to us when the criminal case was pending we asked the court we moved for a court order to get it the judge just wouldn't give it to us but they sat on these tapes for 8 months he had this case hanging over his head and they knew that there was nothing in the tapes right. there was the only evidence there was yes luckily melted never got convicted right we were able to stop it before that happened but it took i mean it almost killed him. there. sexual abuse involving very young children were brought to the attention. to do the. district attorney's office. to thoroughly

investigate and involve. children particularly in this instance. preschool. ages and one. of the in just this case after carol and. gather in our extensive investigation we have to have.

you know have you ever seen anybody use like a piece of a full court to put it all. just all the way forward to i don't know if i have a case where there is a piece of foam cord found inside of a week why would you. lay it on your head to give the little 2 for a little. if they're flat. because if there is some clue feed then the hair is not like it's. just like a 3 to 4 inches of phone cord. if you. were

trying to get permission to test all the old evidence for d.n.a. but to do that we have to collect as much information about her innocence as we possibly can and. go back and interview all the witnesses. documents go back to the crime scene. i keep coming back to this thing that the cops knew he was in florida and kept going with the story that they did together like wife if they know he's in florida why don't they like. your lives. you're lying to us because he's in we know he's in florida why don't they are confronted by hearsay that how can they be permitted to go forward with a serious of a case that they know is not true name

a trial basically match or as you say so that's why the trickery and the only way to convict somebody of this was to do it that way yes. it just makes me so jaded and really disgusted with the district attorney's offices and i feel like you know the you know they're supposed to be at the top of the chain right there it's supposed to be the ones making sure the cops made mistakes or people below the cops made mistakes then they're the ones who are responsible for fixing it why not do d.n.a. testing think why not me we're all we're not infallible we can all make mistakes why not check i mean her name is going to be in prison for the rest of her life why not just check you know they can never answer that question so you just end up in court with you know them opposing your motions for d.n.a. testing and unending ability gating instead of working together in rene's case it's

especially frustrating because i mean they certainly believe that this was done not the stabbing was not done by her so there is this said i mean they're basically admitting that they have a cold case and there's a murder out there and they still don't want to do it you know it's did 2 people either 2 people or somebody other than renee committed that crime and that person is out and about and d.n.a. contesting could show who they are but. they're still posing as. am. you know the central park jogger case was my 1st interaction with false confessions our firm represented corey wise on his civil rights case way to start i mean you're

diving right into the deep end there you know. the circumstances at play in that case were huge amount of pressure on the police and the authorities to make arrests and make them step. forward. 7 years in prison. was one of most notorious crimes in the history of new york city it was a crime in which a woman who was a wealthy upper east side investment banker was out jogging. and was dragged into the woods in central park and almost beaten to death and there was

front page news every day everywhere and they are out to get arrests and i got him . when you get to the false confessions in that case it was a classic you know. mismatch they were totally overmatched underrepresented if represented at all i don't know what they could the core even have anyone in the room without his consent is 16 so he was considered an adult sadly and so his mom was not allowed in there and they you know had given the lawyers they all waived their miranda rights. rights. where you live chris. says. that it's.

this is very very serious in this neighborhood we don't know or is there. any. way to use an example we do say. after seeing those pictures i'm sure you can see where this. is hard for people to understand how this can. help produce a confession something they didn't too and there really is a complicated set of stories there is no one really so. you know corey was. confessed to get out of this bad situation he was under pressure from many many

hours he was likely be told that others were giving stories and that to to cooperate in order to go home and it is very telling in the central park 5 case that every one of them every one of the boys and every one of the parents who were present were surprised the boys were arrested after their statements every one of the time i was going home right back well you know what that sounds crazy right here thought you were gone or confess to a rape and go home right but you know that one false confessors were interviewed afterward and they've been exonerated and the 1st question everybody wants those i don't understand why don't you confront the most typical response because i want to go home. innocent people often say after wards you know i was so. tired i was so stressed i figured let's sign this confession it'll all work itself out in the end trying to soften say you know we have d.n.a. we're going to send. these things that claiming they have love is

a way to scare the criminal into submission you may be right but if the person you're talking to is not the criminal but an innocent person that. becomes a promise of future exoneration. makes it easier to confess right. we're going to do some tests to take blood samples from a lot of the. i just want to know that if we do that we will probably get an order to take a sample from you. and then we'll compare it to tests. because you're in a position now where you know that there's an end of the match. you better off tell us about it now instead of saying something that's natural or this is the state. one of the things i think they made you say was that you cut her on the legs. how

did you come up with that i don't know. came from no i don't know. i don't know i don't know.

in the headlines. plame game this morning then the ied chief saying she's tired of being a scapegoat astra zeneca supply just 10 percent of orders delivered. the kremlin is running fresh u.s. claims of moscow meddling this time to supposedly discredit american vaccines in favor of russia and show. up to switzerland becomes the latest state in europe to face covering such as the public drawing criticism from muslim communities we put it up for debate. and they seem. like the. people who are why have you chosen to come to switch.