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hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered joe biden famously said nothing will fundamentally change just appears to be the case when it comes to u.s. policy regarding the middle east we asked the question what is the strategic value of the middle east and who benefits from all these forever wars. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest who's making both those things he is a professor of history and director of the nucular studies institute at american university as well as co-author with oliver stone of the untold history of the united states in new york we have roy leiter he is an associate. senior research

analyst at the institute for war and peace studies at columbia university and here in moscow we have maxine he is an expert at the russian international affairs council originally cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to bethesda 1st peter i'm going to ask a very simple question what to on this program what is the strategic value of the middle east for the united states it's been there for decades and we keep being told it is necessary that we be there we had a president for 4 years been trying to get out even the president of the united states in the powers of that office could pull troops out of that region so what is the strategic value of the middle east for the united states right now and 2021 it wasn't only the by trump administration that wanted to pull out of the forever wars obama also said it was good and the forever wars so we had 2 presidents who

were trapped there and were unable to get out the u.s. interests in the middle east going back for decades revolved around or oil well this crucial to power so the militaries to the economy its logo. global economy ran. the united states got more deeply entrenched under the carter administration put troops in the area made a central to our strategic policies and doubled down increasingly over the next decades. under the obama administration when hillary clinton was secretary of state she wrote the article in november of $22011.00 when she said he called it america's pacific century and basically said the u.s. is going to be shifting its focus from the middle east to the pacific which was the

future however the united states has still not been able to get out of that region and one concern of course is terrorism with after the united states invaded afghanistan in 2001 and iraq in 2003 the us completely unsettled that entire region and let loose forces that were very very destructive and. initially the americas rig loading about it in 2003 january 5th the new york times. sunday magazine section headline american empire get used to it we were proud of the fact we'd become the dominant empire we were talking about unipolarity were going to dominate the region forever by 2006 the whole thing had fallen apart and so the united states then was playing it was on the defensive in the region right have been on the offensive now is on the defensive and what's happened recently is there are

a lot more players involved so the whole thing has been shifting as well talk about today with the rise of iran independence and taking a different course on the part of turkey the united arab emirates and others now aligning with israel we've got a whole jumbled. or in the us i mean peter i mean that's fair enough but these are countries in the region they're interacting with each other some of them are adversary some of them are newly formed allies so roy let me go to you i mean why don't we just leave the region to itself but me all these players are active i mean they and it's their turf i mean nobody can give me in people in power can give me a reasonable answer why we are still there go ahead. inside interesting that you asked that question this week. or the you know this this year and see here is yours money of adverse for your money. and honestly i think that's the real reason there

. is right to vote the initial pitch was ok or oil and you have 30 years ago question and one of i don't know i'm going to say well i don't know. if you play that isn't relevant now because the fact that we've got our own independent sources well i'm also. well i don't have. so why are we there. i would argue that the real reason is in fact a concern about terrorism. then. friends or associates immigrate make the argument and i think it's a very strong argument that continued presence there only gives oxygen to these terrorist groups i mean that's you know way that our presence there is not wanted i mean we have the iraqi government its parliament asked us to leave we won't leave we make a deal with the taliban and we still won't leave i mean we're not wanted in the

region u.s. troops are illegally stationed in syria they're unwanted is well so i mean it seems to me that this is this cultivates people with. anx and anger and want to use violence against american troops that have no business being there in the 1st place maxine let me go to you i mean i can i agree with roy and i agree with peter i mean there were there might have been a good enough reason decades ago but the world is awash with oil right now so that certainly doesn't work being their bets cherry's i'm an argument can be made and i would make it so again i mean there has to be other reasons arms sales israel is i mean give me a reasonable explanation go ahead oh i can i can direct as a russian city in moscow i can perhaps the java reasonable explanation i can perhaps think of the few elements that have eroded and i think you do badly of the middle east in the 1st place has significantly decreased well the past few years

maybe a decade for the united states in it and its foreign policy because the united say says as peter mentioned and room mentioned become the world leader in oil production in washington dependence on hydrocarbon supplies from the persian gulf is declining so is the commitment to saudi arabia security you know the full support for israel does remain and us middle east agenda but as you know many people are skeptical. that this actually is and will align with the national interests of the united states per se and there is a greater arson divide over. the you know this decision is more than a cursory wash and. the security of israel is anywhere that the united states counter-terrorism i think is is is is is increasingly becoming a highly politicized issue that is going to manipulate the emotional conscience. and therefore you get leaders such as president obama presidential that are trying to kind of reining this moves and say you know enough is enough we're out and i

think the only thing that perhaps. you know keep some policymakers in washington i'm not saying all of. this a year you know now with this quote and all return of the great power rivalry some people think that say you know really even the reaching merrily you know chest you know crazy vacuum that the russians and the chinese will try and still that will save it melting at least undermining or even perhaps out the question what if it is not of any strategic value to the united states why would it be its speech about china for example or russia you need go to peter here i mean i've heard this argument is well and it's very primitive but that's what i expect from political needs is that you know here we have to keep the russians out business a russian boy well i mean russia was invited by syria in september 2015 because its sovereignty was being threatened by outside groups internal groups

that were bonded and arms by outsiders so i mean as they as a sovereign state they have the right to oust the resistance they didn't. i have never heard anyone in moscow say rubbing their hands great we got syria back now with a great deal the population is very apprehensive about russians intervention in syria . well a serious a very important case that because most americans don't know the role the united states played in fueling that civil war there there was very it's very minimal opposition to assad in the early arab spring days then real resistance emerged after the u.s. began operation timber sycamore which is really 2030 in and the u.s. started arming and encouraging the insurgency there and that's what built up this tremendous opposition there was a drought there there was there were some serious economic problems with syria

again u.s. policy has backfired in many ways and it's at least now where we get involved in syria and created a much worse situation he met syrian crisis there we get involved in libya and now that's red throughout northern parts of africa with me sure of soldiers going there in the arms that that were let loose after we obviously get out there libya many u.s. policy even in iran you know. i'm a star as i look back i know the roots of the of things and when the u.s. overthrew mo's adat back in 19530 resident there was not only of the leading space of arab nationalism at that time he was enormously popular and democratic and he had according to u.s. ambassador he had perhaps 98 percent support of the iranian people and the u.s. stages a coup with the british and overthrow in our power we are so short sighted you know

. and they may have i didn't have that consequence they create a much worse and more dangerous situation so when you're talking about the need for the u.s. to pull back on its military involvement says obviously true but most americans now are really tired of these are. but wars you know which is right obama trump and biden the democratic party platform called disk listen lay for ending the forever wars biden has said that he wants to end the forever war now we can talk about i think a positive move on the part of the biden ministration of afghanistan over the past few days that is just leaking out in the last day or 2 and i think that we can go into that because it is much more promising than anything i've seen it good and right promising maybe that could be the beginning of something because i mean i don't understand this mindset you know not one step back because that will be

that's called appeasement or you know aiding abetting our adversaries not only just common sense i mean dish there is what does it mean to win is it mean to win to occupy forever is that when the definition of winning is now go ahead growing. well . you know a little unfair. i've never been accused of that in all i can't understand why. but. look some of this is momentum now and no elements like ellen searched hard to spark a term. and this is not particularly done so it's a. little bit about what it might look life if the united states was not at this point if you noticed it's pull back on even i.q. fifty's but that's you know best very little that. you know so just in think about ok when in fact haven't you noticed it's pull back its military commitments which

no. doing anyway. but you know if they go. out what would wind up what would you want to do and my guess is you wind up as much as or more violence at the door of the you there you would have with us there . showing you the next guy i need i need that gen been i apologize i have to go to a hard break and after that heart break we'll continue our discussion on america's forever wars in the middle east. stay because. this is crude oil. so they need to actually physically pump it out of the ground he

would have well well well well well well well well. there's a lot of money with joy and with that comes. a lot of a lot of people from all over the country. if you don't make a $100000.00 a year. as a. prison issue. here maybe. they were told 16 hours a day it's hard work well work is not easy work and so they want to relieve their stress and how do they relieve their stress these men move back out like these men believe that comfort many. people have been murdered up here people been raped they're massive drug issues up here you have a boom you have everything else that comes along with money.

welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle should remind you we're talking about the forever wars in the middle east. ok let's go back to i mean here we were to the break you were trying to make a point go right ahead ok yes i do think the terrorism issue remains central for the united states in the region since obviously oil is. but and and so you know if you what are my senses of what happens it is seems to happen in various different countries but all countries most countries are not used to this central of radical islam taking over in some sense or at least in the policies and.

you know you need implication of what you said is that. there's got trouble because where there. i would argue are there because they're got trouble now whether they're smarter not as a dog. but you know who's doing that's that's the you sure you want to grapple with you're left that's a that's a good point let me go to maxine right here but that's a fair enough point i mean if the u.s. forces withdraw there will be violence if the u.s. forces stay there there's going to be violence ok i mean you have to choose i mean huge and of course you know royce pointed you know there are radical groups that want to threaten government but why do they threaten government we didn't have this scourge here before ok and yet al qaida and these other groups you know it's western occupation and they they and their perceptions of how the west perceives islam you know fueled this here i mean you know we can go into chicken and egg all

we want well we need to draw a line and say enough is enough we can't do what it's not we're not getting any positive returns it just continues to be negative go ahead max it thinks it mentally and some respects the united states is kind of stuck in the into period of time between you know april 11th 1901 that is when the u.n. security council adopted the resolution that's the 1st saddam hussein to pay compensation for his invasion of kuwait that is pretty much shit now the moment where american military presence and political influence in the middle east ended a bit when on the one hand and between. march 19th 2003 when the u.s. military component in iraq began. and actually is on the one hand and on the other hand is the world that has not yet arrived but it's inevitable approach is noticeable in the sense that the region is changing fundamentally and there are areas in the region where the american presence indeed aids the battle against

terrorism we can say you know what it's been a great word for it iraq's government but one can also argue there would have been such a problem if there were no u.s. invasion. iraq in the 1st place in 2003 in syria for instance now americans are helping the kurdish militia to fight off. some isis remaining cells but at the same time they're preventing at the government with room for the russians to work to take over control of the country and the local populations are suffering which in the long run perhaps creates this issue of you know terrorists organizations now trying to recruit new people from from these areas and you know this fighting the procedures and that they were consenting and the russians and the sons as well so in this matter are you in for a greater cooperation between the u.s. and russia and you know some of the original governments if it is

a car tears. you know if it is indeed about syria fighting fire fighting terrorists because this is primarily in many respects an issue for and there are reasons for russian presence in the region together it's written with some others. you know peter who much is the go in talk about oil ok for a moment if this is about israel's security because it's a it's a you know an article of bait that the u.s. is going to be it israel but i would also say you know it's my point to write your earlier i mean you have big powers you have you have the rand you have saudi arabia you have israel why don't what is why doesn't you know joe biden seat the nobel peace prize by saying we're going to get out but only until you guy sit down at a big round table and sort europe bears out because we have had enough of it's i know that's very idealistic but my point in the region has to be great sell out

outsiders not china not russia not the united states not be you resolve these nations go ahead. look at this latest proposal. the u.s. just made on afghanistan. the reason i say it's so promising is because united states is calling for all of the countries in the region who've got an interest in a stable afghanistan to be meeting mapping out the future there and figure out how they can work together to stabilize the situation and they call for cooperation from iran turkey india russia china they're talking about the regional powers that are involved there who have to have a stake in that future so as max is saying the u.s. and russia cooperating on counterterrorism no you've got to look at this even more broadly that was the initial idea behind the united nations strike on trees would

get together and work together to create peace. and maybe this could be a starting point. that biden people as bad as they are the foreign policy national security team in my view you know the. sullivans and new lens and and those folks there are one area which they were good i thought was on iran these were the people who supported the iran nuclear deal this is important this is not going to obama but yes under obama because they were all in the obama administration all the all these folks they're mostly retreads in a sense and they don't represent a new kind of thinking but at least when it comes to iran compared to the trump people the only thing they could agree on was they were all of us on the phone because they all hated iran the biden people are better on iran so let's let's work

on this afghanistan thing let's work on getting the u.s. back into the iran nuclear deal with the rain ians are resisting right now for obvious reasons. but this this could be a least positive step still i mean. if out i like your optimism but you know just in the last year news cycles a gentleman named richard net you've never heard of him before he's biting. iran's envoy and he's very been very public about how it was a tremendous success of the maximum pressure on iran i mean and then he talks about maybe a greater inequality unemployment economic despair this is the ministration here's the thing about peter he's the deputy envoy as bad as as nephew might be he's the deputy envoy robert malley is the envoy and he is considered to be very

dovish when it comes to iran and so again biden is sending a lot of mixed signals you've got some people there you don't get anybody who i would strongly like in terms of their views and their foreign policies are they've ministration but you've got some who are more reasonable you've got wendy surely and italian and you've got people who are not they have a hard line hawks in there and so they're contradictory yes so you've got nephew and you've got malley and let's say we're biden's going to go this right i mean the iran deal under obama is the only major foreign policy event of that presidency that i actually very much agreed with my great disappointment was that it wasn't taken to the next step of regional security and it was a cardinal mistake by the trump administration to walk away from it it was the beginning of something not the end of something i don't we how does the u.s. and iran move over now it seems to me that the biden people have really painted themselves into

a corner because of the trump administration go ahead roy i don't think their pain and souls who are especially there's another aspect to renewing that should. our iranians going to feel about. i mean you know there's an interesting question here now is the firm administration basically. said to the world ok american foreign policy is going to change radically. with the american elections and it doesn't much matter what the rest of you guys are that's what's going to happen so that kind of reduces the incentive to get a deal. you know from the from the iranians point of view i mean humans that go back to you know having. their nuclear materials and rot and all that stuff. so you can you believe that the united states on a whole concept a true artist well i think is doing all right why would any government interference trust the united states now after what has happened without being a gauge for me again this is

a it should have been at the beginning of something and it wasn't going to in and out with the more we know from ben rhodes and people like that there was a lot of bad faith involved here. maksim how do you see this because the idea by ministration is center that it wants to get back into it but we'll have to drop of the sanctions that the trumpet ministration put on the country and politically of doable i mean it just seems to me that is i but in my entire life as an american we've been saying we've been told that iran is an evil awful place and you can never trust them bets well hidden but we've been brought up with obama went out on a limb and i actually congratulate him on that how do we move forward with this go ahead well i think the key difference this win with the industry and what the obama administration with even though they're the same most people they were under obama are now in office doing this poll is a track with iran is that the approach is very different in that now that by

administration wants to take both the nuclear program and iran's missile program and discuss iranian regional behavior in one package that is totally unacceptable for iran yes and that wasn't the case on her obama who thought that you know you know tackling in nuclear deal is the most important thing can then we can talk about missile program and their regional behavior and on the markets now this very kind of approach is very different which makes it runny and suman more kind of stubborn and willing to make concessions and we have to bear in mind that in june until the presidential elections and iran with process. you know a more conservative guy comment in 2 hours that will pretty much make any action on the track even more are ok i want to get i want to give peter the last word here peter you know public opinion polls have made it very clear the public there is

sick and tired of these wars ok what is it going to take to make the political establishment military industrial complex whatever you want to call it understand that this is not a popular thing and it is a sad comment that the public has no impact on foreign policy but just 30 seconds to you my friend unfortunately the public is not speaking out we don't have a strong anti-war movement the united states now there's not a lot of interest several democrats when the us struck in syria last week several leading democrats spoke out about the authorization for the use of military force there is a strong pressure now within the democratic party to repeal that the 2001 day you m.-f. and the 2002 you have left that could be another start we see some probably not out of time gentlemen that's a good start rocket i want to thank my guests and to test the new york and here in moscow i want to thank our viewers for watching us iraqi xenix time remember rules

. who were. there or tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit even think people in the u.s. really get that the police are allowed to lie to the person who falsely from fast actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior one supposed confession a stake in the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that isn't. seems wrong. to me that you get to shape out they become educated and engage with equals betrayal.

when something a find themselves worlds apart when she's to look for common ground. our online german sister channel r t george launches a legal action against a leading german newspaper billed following a piece accusing the network of spying on russian opposition for your election involving. a french schoolgirl admits she made up her claims about samuel patty her story sparked an online hate campaign against the teacher last year leading to his beheading. to be achieved puts the blame on astra zeneca for vaccine supply failures with just 10 percent of orders it delivered. and nonsense is how the kremlin brands fresh u.s. claims of moscow meddling it's time to suppose.