middle. of the night most of them are very hardworking people who want to get ahead that either have some some health issues or have some how to trick about luck a full time job won't always pay for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get you a victim to gunpoint if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. you better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted anyone that's homeless is treated like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the case see how it is to be put on in the world's richest country. gather. you were a police one of the 2 homes i think you're talking about her is your room and he didn't see. you leave that up. i just sat there watching minutes.

you're not going home tonight i can guarantee they. won't come back to wrongful conviction with you something today we're going to be doing a deep dive into an issue that is fascinating incidents. which is the phenomenon of false confessions and my guest today is going to be jane fisher are you also currently working on more cases involving false confessions and each is fascinating its own way so jane while some confession happened to me and jane is an attorney who is an expert on false confessions and so jane how did you get into this work i was a public defender in manhattan here in new york city for about 3 years and we saw

a lot of police misconduct you know we were doing arraignments up until 1 am in the morning and you see people beat up or you know people whose cases get dismissed who get no compensation so my husband and i left the legal aid society with the hopes of doing civil rights work. my name so castle i'm a distinguished professor of psychology at john jay college of criminal justice once a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that is a problem with all of this is that your tactics that can be used to get innocent people and i don't just mean vulnerable innocent people i mean people who are sitting around in this room to confess to crimes they didn't commit.

anytime you do an exoneration case where there's been a false confession it's like trying to write a trice. everybody's already against you the person's been convicted by a jury the judge thinks he's guilty the jury thinks he's guilty now you have to convince everybody that they're wrong. so a case that you're deeply invested in is a case of an alien ship who has been in prison for 20 years renee lynch. was a case we took about 2 and a half now maybe 3 years ago now and she was accused and convicted of killing her landlord in buffalo new york in 1905. and it's

also obviously a false confession cases the police are going crazy and they can't solve it 18 months go by and renee's connection to the victim was that it was her landlord and so they are start looking into run a who at the time is heavily addicted to drugs crack cocaine and because she gets arrested for something else and they start interrogating her and she confesses to killing her landlord with this guy karim so she says kareem and i went to my landlord's house we were going to rob her the robbery goes bad and karim stabs her so if she's a good century it can make it a felony murder being present during the commission. a crime and somebody gets killed we started sort of doing you know just regular google searches on the players' names and detectives and everything in this t.v. show women behind bars comes up and they've done an episode days case where they

got in the in the prison and interviewed her and then interviewed this joseph court was the cop on the case the way her body. when she decided to go you just saw it was time to go in truth. i believe her confession is kind of nonsense there's inconsistency between the physical evidence and what she says and during the show he says well i mean we knew that corinne walker was in florida at the time of our crime. kareen was afforded to. i guess they knew kareem walker was in florida at the time the crime then rene's confession can't possibly be true because she's confessing to going to rob the landlord with karim and the defense been able to put that on her confession would have made no sense but the defense was never told. the whole thing is so full of holes and so bogus i can't put my finger out and say like

you know this is the thing but i think if we dug in it we could find that thing that could get her out because it's all. it's just all of it so it's messed up how do they record this confession and didn't know i mean they make you know they typed it up and then read it to her and made her so and so there is a type of confession is the only version of the confession there's no like original notes they have or something that we have. to wonder about. she says details about the crime scene because they showed her photos of it. and she know how the body was lying being shown her those photos. of some kind of new evidence. didn't exist at the time of the trial. or didn't didn't exist at the time a tro but it wasn't known right and it wasn't presented during the trial and then we have to show that it. could have been

a different outcome and. i think we can but it's going to be hard. our goal is of course to get renee out of prison but it can take a really long time sometimes many years and one of the 1st things we do in cases like this is to comb through the confession and find all that in consistencies to clearly show that the confession. there's a cream walker drove me to 90 longmeadow and the plan was i was going to go into the front door and cream was going to come up the back door. he was going to tie her up with a piece of white extension cord that he brought with him at babson time kareem hit louise in the side of the face and louise fell to the floor and kind of went out if that happened he would be standing punching her here right. on creams head here in

the face he knocked the wig off the wig landed on the floor in the kitchen. kitchen. he tried to tie louise up with the plastic already had then kareem comes from behind louise he stabbed her at least twice however we know it's 8 times. louise fell to the floor again it was a large amount of blood on the floor next to her body so the only thing she gets right is that the way it was knocked off that there's a plastic cord involved in this case is correct and the phone cord is where the extra d.n.a. is. ringback. i miss phyllis jeanne fisher byron nelson rene lynch's attorney i have a call with her this morning. oh good things. how i.

oh. i oh. oh oh. oh oh. oh oh oh. oh oh oh why oh why. i i. oh i know it's hard. i. went to trial she testified been very incoherent lee she was high during the trial . was she was not a good witness for her so she recanted right away afterwards and her confession is that is it was a coerced when. i would never say contests when people say i've been

talking about this for 30 years and that's the 1st thing everybody says but it wouldn't happen today it's not one kind of person that gives a false confession we are all under the circumstance of interrogation we all know there have been some train detectives i've spoken to who say i can get anybody to confess to them from any of the little boats that they have a 95 percent confession rate. and see a lesser of a lesser near perfect identifying the perpetrator that is every suspect you identify is the perpetrator right if you've got a confession rate at that level you're producing the workforce contrition. when i talk to her about it she explains to me. i was so shocked that they convicted me she said because there was no evidence of a confession so powerful it can stand alone so here's the jury on the one hand they've got the confessions of the woman and they've got. the confessions trumped

the d.n.a. changes everything is sometimes not like in the final product of a confession hollywood production is scripted by the police theory of the case is rehearsed and. action camera ready to go. and that's what the jury sees they don't see the whole production they just see the final i don't see how a judge or a jury can look past a false confession if they don't see the presence and. we have a number of documented cases in which the person who falsely confessed actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior. which is. a whole nother level of insanity and some of them believe it for a long time afterwards.

you can see there you. see here. the insurer. in the melted thompson case we had he was a danish inturn who came. he was a danish he was a college student studying to become a teacher and he came and interned at i.p.s. which is really you know like a $20000.00 a year preschool up to the u.n. and it was a code teacher who accuses him of molesting all the kids in the class. and he's on the cover of the daily news they take his focus his facebook profile pictures him with his niece on his shoulders so they put that on the cover of the daily news and write sex monster and they go arrest him in the morning and bring him into the

station and they have a female cop interrogate him she tells him well you know we have video of you molesting these kids which they had videos but he's not molesting anybody so they had this woman who accused him had taken videos of him in the classroom interacting normally with children and so either the cops had watched it or they had watched it and were blatantly lying to him but there was no video of him molesting kids but he hears that right and he thinks holy well if i'm on video i must have done it right they let him continue to believe this lie that he's cut red handed on tape molesting these kids and i think that that you know he started you could tell through the hole when they finally are recording him he's doubting himself you know he's he's wondering did i do this.

seemed wrong. but i. just don't hold. any world yet to keep out the attic. and it gave him an equal betrayal. when something find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. are. mr thompson. can you tell me why.

i'm here because of. my colleagues and. for inappropriate. behavior it was. ok so why don't you tell me. privately and how this started what happened you know what. you know well as i. can remember just had to go down just a few moments about. this as a. person and. i had taken. its. place and playing around. to the story of

my shorts and. you know sort of come forward in that or question where you were going. and so what when you say gave him pleasure at one time that the central. of it would have to be. i don't know you know. never ever in this like this none of it if you read out the statement i did as your handwriting and if i am just waiting over briefly does it look like it's been changed in any way. and that's your signature. because you made those out here today showing the camera.

i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to you i think most people would think that if i am speaking to a police officer he's telling me the truth but now times i mean in denmark it's illegal for the police to lie to you so he really i think was was really says extra susceptible to something like that it took us filing the civil rights suit to even get access to these tapes the district attorney wouldn't give it to us when the criminal case was pending we asked the court we moved for a court order to get it the judge just wouldn't give it to us but they sat on these tapes for 8 months he had this case hanging over his head and they knew that there was nothing in the tapes right. there was the only evidence there was yes luckily mel to never got convicted right we were able to stop it before that happened but it took i mean it almost killed him. there. sexual abuse involving very young children were brought to the attention.

of the special victims. district attorney's office. involved. in to children particularly in this instance previous for the last preschool. ages and one. just missed this case after carol and. gather in our extensive investigation we have to have.

you know have you ever seen anybody use like a piece of a full court to prop up the waiter put it. all the way forward to i don't know if i have a case where there is a piece of foam cord found inside of a week why would you have. just laid it on your head to give the little 2 for a little. if there are 4. because if there is some clue feed then the hairs i can see they.

look just like a 3 to 4 inches of phone cord. on a space we're trying to get permission to test all the old evidence for d.n.a. but to do that we have to collect as much information about her innocence as we possibly can. go back and interview all the witnesses. documents go back to the crime scene. i keep coming back to this thing that the cops knew he was in florida and kept going with the story that they did together like why if they know he's in florida why don't they like. your lives. you're lying to us because he's in we know he's in

florida why don't they are confronted by hearsay that how can they be permitted to go forward with a serious of a case that they know is not true name names and trial basically matter. so that's why that's as trickery and the only way to convict somebody of this was to do it that way yes. it just makes me so jaded and really disgusted with the district attorney's offices and i feel like you know the you know they're supposed to be at the top of the chain right there it's supposed to be the ones making sure the cops made mistakes or people below the cops made mistakes then they're the ones who are responsible for fixing it why not do d.n.a. testing think why not they were all we're not infallible we can all make mistakes why not check i mean her name is going to be in prison for the rest of her life why not just check you know they can never answer that question so you just end up in

court with you know them opposing your motions for d.n.a. testing and unending ability gating instead of working together in rene's case it's especially frustrating because i mean they certainly believe that this was done not the stabbing was not done by her right so there is a set the i mean they're basically admitting that they have a cold case and there's a murder out there and they still don't want to do it you know it's did 2 people either 2 people or somebody other than renee committed that crime and that person is out and about and d.n.a. contesting could show who they are but. they're still posing as. am.

you know the central park jogger case was my 1st interaction with false confessions our firm represented corey wise on his civil rights case way to start i mean you're diving right into the bed there you know. the circumstances that play in that case were huge amount of pressure on the police and the authorities to make arrests and make them step. forward. 7 years in prison. with one of the most notorious crimes in the history of new york city it was a crime in which a woman who was a wealthy upper east side investment banker was out jogging. and was

dragged into the woods in central park and almost beaten to death and there was front page news every day everywhere and they are out to get arrests and i got him . when you get to the false confessions in that case it was a classic you know. mismatch they were totally overmatched underrepresented if represented at all i don't know what they could their core even have anyone in the room without his consent is 16 so he was considered an adult sadly and so his mom was not allowed in there and they you know had given them lawyers they all waived their their miranda rights. rights. where you live chris. says.

that it's. this is very very serious in this neighborhood we don't we are going to their. ways and except we do say it is that. you're seeing there are stages and surely you can see where this point is. it is hard for people to understand how this can. produce a confession to something they did to end there really is a complicated set of stories there is no one really so. you know why is

confessed to get out of this bad situation he was under pressure from many many hours he was likely be told that others were giving stories and that to to cooperate in order to go home and it is very telling in the central park 5 case that every one of them every one of the boys and every one of the parents who were present were surprised the boys were arrested after their statements every one of the time i was going home right well you know what that sounds crazy right here thought you were going or confess to a rape and go home right but you know that one false confessors were interviewed afterward and they've been exonerated and the 1st question everybody wants those i don't understand why don't you confirm the most typical response because i want to go home. innocent people often say after wards you know i was so. i'm tired i'm so

stressed i figured let me sign this confession it'll all work itself out in the end the detectives often say you know we have d.n.a. we're going to send them to the lab grocery they think that claiming they have t.n.a. the law is a way to scare the criminal into submission they may be right but if the person you're talking to is not the criminal but an innocent person then blow off becomes a promise of future exoneration paradoxically makes it easier to contrast right through tape we're going to do some tests going to take the samples from a lot of different people. i just want to know that if we do that we will probably get an order to take a sample from you. and then we'll compare it to tests. or this. area because you're in a position now where if you know that there's going to be a match. you better off tell us about it now or the stairs instead of saying

something that's not true or this is this. one of the things i think they made you say was that you cut her on the legs where did you how did you come up with that i don't know. came from no i don't know she'd made it up i don't know i came from i don't know. seemed wrong one old rule just don't hold. any new world that is yet to shape out these days become educated and it gains from an equal betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart when she's to look for common ground.

this is critical. to the need to actually physically. you would have well. there's a lot of money with the oil and with that comes. a lot of a lot of people from all over the country. you don't need a $100000.00 a year. as. there is an issue. here in the. they were told $60.00 a day hard work well work is not easy work and so they want to relieve their stress of how do they relieve their stress these. people have been murdered up here people been raped there are massive drug issues up here you have

a boom you have everything else that comes along with money. our online german channel our launches legal action against leading german newspaper billed following the hit piece accusing the network of spying on russian opposition figure election involving. french schoolgirl admits she made up her claims about her story sparked an online campaign against the teacher last year leading to his beheading. the e.u. chief puts the blame on astra zeneca for vaccine supply failures with just 10 percent of orders delivered. and the nonsense of the kremlin brands of fresh u.s. claims of moscow meddling this time to supposedly discredit american vaccines in favor of russian shop. my colleague kevin owen has it next.