hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter labelle according to secretary of state planes and china is the only country with the economic military and technological power to seriously challenge the stable and open international system all of the rules values and relationships that make the world work the way we want it to is china really a threat to washington's global system. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest says coarsely in washington he's a senior fellow and director of the center of american sea power at hudson institute also in washington we have sort of ghouta he is asia pacific international

relations specialist at the institute for china american studies and of the let me cross too when he came she is a policy analyst and senior lecturer in chinese international political economy are across up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it when it's going to set in washington i found lincoln's statements about china quite remarkable because basically what he said is that he didn't say and complete words but basically the international system that the united states has built since the 2nd world war designed by the united states directly by the united states everyone must conform to it and china must too and if it doesn't conform to it and that's how they define the threat is that a fair thing to say said no that's not our concern like what it ought to do in the beginning my introduction. was not international or exists right now. and which near as i say. a party

to along with other democratic countries is under threat by china and weapon chinese call everything with chinese characteristics so that means that free trade freedom of navigation. certainly free enterprise and non-working tilling system. one where there is something right multiple radical cooperation on trade and where there is not an acceptance of our intellectual property south pole say oh that that's the kind of world united states seeks to preserve an increase not to enforce wrong others which had been a girl i now only getting it if they'd been really gained and lincoln is saying is that china is challenging it well i mean it is a multi-ethnic of polar world right now one party doesn't make the rules or should make the rules because then it will cause conflict when he let me go to you mean if

it seems to me number one the world that the us is the architecture that the us has been in at the at the meeting since they cycled morse hugely benefited china china likes a lot of those rules ok self you know i i think also during that after the 2nd world war all the way up to now the united states has never really had a peer so it has to start thinking about how the internet with international order is going to exist with the peer power go ahead wendy i'll only be with china has vanished from the currents there with her or her fame will not be not was that faith it's not eternal issues to change it or to challenge will think it's own statement in his speech because i have read the speech it's very interesting to see . flight is that he suggests that for america he's alone. saying that it's a power in the nation basically trying to. fight against. you

that you've come to this obviously isn't true china is not able to challenge america who is here we now do we not only in this region not home we think that the fact that americans have a lot of allies that have nato from when it comes to economics china has roots cordoning to the rules of we gain that has been sent out here and it is still considered an evil phone and there were a lot of demands that america put her on screen here at this time part of the man said we were part of a developed a plan for america really should be doing the assessing that step it's found that's a place to be again i think it's also important really to highlight that. while the speech really really emphasizes the fact that the end society of prioritizing american values interests the american people is that you are no no longer who we think that this is an international system that's that film were really after

you this is no system that actually is very true at the phone company. so the game is very much tina. you know blink and you know also you know he talked about it and i'm glad when he brought it up because i stopped in my introduction how it benefited the american people absolutely right i was a continuation of it when said china also has its national interests and has to look after its own people i mean why can't the chinese jhoom what went down in the washington must do tyrants on people china will do for its own i mean it seems to me it's like our party and if you want to cook if you want to participate you have to do exactly what we say but the united states doesn't own the international or it's a member of the international red sox you know there are no diagram often show if the united states is that china is a moral. less playing by the rules of the game than the united states who laid down

china playing by those same rules is going to go boss ahead of the united states in terms of material capabilities particularly economics just think about it this way in a couple of decades hence if china gets to the level off productivity that south korea is they acted a china with china's economy would be 2 and a half times the size of the united states playing by the rules of the game that the united states laid out china will be wait ahead off the united states and this creates a fundamental die lemma of how to manage china and the problem has been that china does not want to change the setup because it works more or less pretty well for china but for the united states something needs to change in strategy and that's not yet figured out how to change that in strategy and so instead we have this doubling down in rhetoric that china's cheating china's doing this love love love

love love trying to create a coalition against china but the fact of the matter is one needs to have a backup criteria one needs to have better accusations against china to be able to create that coalition against china and that's not looking at i think this is to some extent trust tradition and ceo at the u.s. and and that should not be the case because china as as we just said is just still end up alone including income economy and it is not a given that the chinese communist party will be there for her that's not been the case in taiwan that we have hardware in systems have come down it could could have been in china and we could have a much more tourist set up at some point of time in the next couple of decades in a decade or 2 and that could completely change the conversation so the u.s. needs to stay true to its values and observe the rules of the system that it itself laid out and of course court others who. well the seat to the fire to sunday to do some of the same sets you want to reply to that go ahead well you are.

wondering whether there are clashes on the border between china and india constitute or are you here in studio international order. the other guests are saying the united states. doesn't strike me as the. conqueror order of that into the united states or any other democratic country or non-democratic. you know what should the united states do if there was a conflict between india and china what should the united states didn't i don't think. that statesmen have the luxury of making plans based on what could or what might happen i think one has to look at what is actually happening and judged by that. china represents a threat to national the international order liberal and national order and what

did i deduce that what one should try to do i mean he would mr blinken what should china do if just. agree to any kind of demand from washington i don't think that agreeing to demands from washington is not anything to do with how the chinese treat the readers in their own country or threaten tyrone with force or have flashes with very with the indians are near or are on the road a lesson from that if it's go to war with china no of course not say ok winnie go ahead jump in i see what it says what you're suggesting is number one that you that america wants trying to achieve just saying here what your rights for i i receive who are who are the injustices there are fans we will keep on board with this that he was out for i think that there's a little bit there. this posse that we were talking about the fact that you're aligned with the current situation in india the border fashions the how. do you

think having territory she's protected it's for me i had clashes on and off for decades and they have is oh it's so nice for now who are the people you know how they want to do it since we were in hock out. there in the passions out or potentially currency 300 there who are going sure sure to call out what america is doing you know to control the hurleys i am and i'm not saying i want to take it there but if you are going to for china or for america what so-called china to do with ensure it then it's necessary for america to fully ringback itself to do with of international think we're safe as you say america is not a leader america is not trying to control everything it is just part of a whole chunk of this now it's not a question of holding trying at the rules of the american order. it's a question now what sort of a warder exists in the world united states is not

a this part shall now the fact that you are the threat to the international order is recognised not simply by the united states but by europe well is demonstrated by the fact that the british are sending a carrier strike south china sea the french are sending a submarine the german hearst the germans you sending a certain share and so there's a growing awareness of what china's aggressiveness and you envision well who ambitions be not just united states for europe as well and i expect that will continue sort of down to and washington sort of that it is china a military threat and became a miner the british going all the way around the world due to the south china sea which from the as far as i know has at the end where china is the south china sea is called that for a reason here i mean if. it seems to me that we're seeing so much of a military response i mean is i would think that's

a kind of the last thing you would want to be presenting while there are so many things you can diplomacy that you can have before that i mean you know when this is all that this all that does is known to react military let's go to our other guest in washington mr. you know that's just the sort of. the perfect find out if one talks about globally expansionists in terms of china being doing this this globally and then all the issues that we talk about a frankly right activists or a freak in which something many of which are tests already pretty legitimate claims i mean if i come to the sunshine to see you think about they can go to china and get more disturbed actually just china prior to what happened on the border at what sort of boundary resolution proposal with regard to a certain segment off the bottom 3 what do they need to the eons instead went to and declare the cashier was a union territory not really the question and as a certain area which is also disputed by china because china does these things

everybody jumps to the side even when when the other countries do it sorry if you have to jump in here we have to go to a heartbreaking if about heart break your discussion on u.s. china relations stay with our caps. on ellen so seems wrong. but all will just don't call. me i'll get to see her out he's going to come out to call and in detroit because the trail . went on to find themselves worlds apart we just of the common ground. the or tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they

didn't commit i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to the person who falsely confessed actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior once a false confession a stake in the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that isn't. what the demick know certainly no blood is true nationalities. as a murder. we don't have the facts. to. judge . 2 commentary classes so what is the system things. we can do better we should be. everyone is contributing way but we also know that this

crisis will not go on forever the challenges created with the response has been masked so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. welcome back to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter's about to remind you we're talking about the u.s. china relationship. going. to go back to mr google in washington d.c. you're talking about perceptions of chinese aggression go right ahead yeah exactly perceptions of chinese aggression you know let's let's be clear about it you know the chinese are plush it sirrah in terms of the way they handle many of these

territorial aspects sources is an extension off diplomacy and politics but force within certain limits this is not force which is going to be used on the other side of the world and phobia so that cetera et cetera it's a very limited use of force and those that don't use of force has done more for political reasons think about it in time from 979 to 2021 china has had little bit of all that's how should we see any movements on its territorial fronts it had less than 150 casualties those last 40 years it's now think about it with regard to the eagle wars if you go home any zeroes you have to add to that in terms of casualties but when you get to a larger point out you with regard to china it's again china is very territory ality oriented and their fault china is not a military threat to the wooden floor seats but in terms within the source i

mentioned and the 2nd island chain in the western pacific china has very serious territorial claims and and strategic interests and in regard to those interests include ensure that there is an anti access anti denial strategy has to prosecuting a conflict of contingency which might arise with an in these. artist but that also means that de dion these geographies there's actually no basis whatsoever for china to be involved in a hot conflict and that includes places like the south pacific all the string off corals in the e.u. notion there is no question of conflict military conflict happening out there but a bet is obviously with taiwan it is especially and you can see that that conflict is potentially possible there so again it's an it's a qualified out saying tons of military it's not in the streets right to the earth but it has military interests and there is a potential for

a very serious questions in zoos that even the odd man out so i'd like you to reply to what we just heard go ahead well but. you know this is. there's a certain amount of speculation here which is understandable. but when the question is asked or when it's asserted that china is not a threat roguery that may or may not be true but i think that it's important to look at what kind of ships. chinese are building because ships are the way that the principal way for a country to project power china is working on is working on laying the keel for its 4th. aircraft carrier which will be a very large aircraft carrier and very modern one with the electromagnetic catapults and all the. tribute for a modern ship. you don't need 4 aircraft carriers for the south china sea

you need aircraft carriers for one reason alone and that's to project how high you used. question for speculation the current pacific is a pretty big place. but to say that china is not a threat. and is merely concerned with regional issue. is be rived by the fact of building amphibious ships which are meant to project power and building aircraft carriers need creasing numbers which are meant to be the same ok india sending 3 aircraft carrier it already has and will have 3 aircraft carriers by 2030 i don't know anybody saying india is the expansionist i'm going to south america i'm going to go somebody so i mean we need to have a little bit of share in this in this in the context of this debate from. me let me get any air limits but when and if you know we just have we have the quad you know we have in the events being. is being designed at least by some people in

washington to be kind of in asia nato obviously to contain china and so i mean when you see this containment policy being encircled encouraging the quad to even to to militarily cooperate which i i find really problematic i i don't i just can't see how the australians are going to get involved with that i just beat to south koreans out with the we've with china and you think you know south korea is going to really come to the aid of japan and i doubt that too ok but i mean if it does in this containment these are real ok we have ships you know going into the region here ok and obviously making it clear they see this is all a project. power against china not firm freedom of the seas but you know they're keeping their eye on one target and one target only when so the idea of chinese containment has began in the 1990 s. after that do you see the hole. you still have is the major communist power within

the world and the rise of the chinese economy naturally means it's more concerned with americans as to why it might mean for a region where you have japan which is a major ally for the mere ins foreign as well as reality are concerned about whether my poor creative inference or if she feels the need to figure out where firms to hide you know china has a military right into iraq which are the 3 ask it's easier for them so our even as to how i not idea china and the major military power in terms the arms and throats for a phone when we're talking about with south reserve the fact that china's trying to develop it for a fresh carrier america has to be 3 so sense that we yes china and i.e. are trying to be a major military power and growing but it's in terms of challenging america is exactly the sense of our this is not exaggerated in terms that i think you can see

the sense how china is prioritizing its concerns and its its our presence in the region it is fundamentally focusing on defense of power trying to ensure that nothing happens of course the markets for one is hearing within the scene with regards to so and it's easy to see these he. for that you have been trading routes in the malacca straits is one of the reasons why we have to go through initiative because china recognizes that night new chinese detainment is one team prioritize potential risk it with one of the treatments and therefore you need the hostler and there's a growing discussion of health care with its right response to arms exports america and nationally at least that is the world's leading events for orange 175000000000 for 20 for china exports 9000000000 per year over the last decade if not a challenge in that in that sense though in the big picture yes china i can see why

there are concerns by its regional friend immensely regional in terms of where china is trying to protect its interests whose didn't disappoint her territoriality absolutely china has never wavered from day one about what its own heart. mr go go go go go back to i mean it seems to me you know it'll be in the rise of china the international scene has been actually spain calculator if you look at the course of history i mean unbelievable and if i can just really give a really broad picture here i mean this is the 1st time in 500 years that a non european power is becoming a peer when the only single superpower in the world this is what blinken is talking about i find it really insulting it's all couched in values and democracy considering all of the illegal wars that the united states participated in in this century alone ok and it's just because china is becoming

a peer and nobody in washington understands how to deal with that because it's this whole exceptionalism nonsense starts short circuiting because there's someone else out there that is growing in power and there's really nothing they can do about it and that's why they don't fall back on these barrel things that i you know i think are hypocritical if you look at american foreign policy and nato also go ahead mr. perfectly correct on that on that trying to you know the fact that we are going to have a knot in west our which is going to be sitting atop the mountain all summer and thereabouts is the sacked that is very hard to digest because the one that we live in is written has been written by the judeo christian west frankly and it's not it's absolutely not easy to accept that fact the chinese have been immense far in the process that coming back to that to that in to being that that sort of talk and they're doing it at a time when the rest of the water actually says 70 ish employer or safe is rising

and doing very well so this is a rice i'm like japan but it happened at the expense of asia it's happening with the asia and that that makes it that much more harder and that's why i mean even he knows try r.p.c. are pretty. questionable i do not take it for granted that he has just stuck in the quad let me expand in trenton 19 the. pacific forces come and never come on to say you know what you need to kind of quit on this floor business because it's not really going anywhere because that he needed an ample head of the indian naval command cordon like you know what we're really not too much keen about this business because the intention we're doing having a good relationship at that point of time and of course relations have gone down and suddenly look quite has gone up and it might just go the other way around but coming back to china as i do the important takeaway from china is to do it in terms of its prices not so much to focus just on the military element you know that the

chinese one from 2000 years of conflict that for free is that it does not work trying to squash your enemy because you will not be able to do that better to play to that after a set and greed and trying to find divisions within them and that is what china is going to do as a 50 trillion 70 trillion dollar economy it is going to find differences but then branches off the west as it did with branches off the mongols and best practice of i think the west needs to be needs to get its game together and frankly as you're seeing out here the comprehensive agreement on investment if china's going to play by those rules advanced country rules and you know the subsidies they are betting to say hey let's give the already to shake hands and to then also what happens that in that case where you go in with that well i think if they think that's very interesting i'm going to south to the last question here i mean is it a neo liberalism what the u.s. did was financial eyes its economy you know just got the industrialization part of

it and the chinese embrace a very different neo liberalism there that the factory of the world and they make all kinds of things we saw this you know these production change during the that and the ongoing crisis here i mean the ad they've been braced neo liberalism in come out on the winning site when the middle class in america came out on the losing side of the same ideology go ahead sir. of course the. contest between nations. is not certainly should not be considered in terms of military balance war or not but rather the combination of. a claim. made a moment ago by. winnie about defense of character. china's regional. by their treatment of. the known should be and could easily be the japanese of their threat to use force to take

taiwan most are not the 1st sorry i have to jump in here reply times i sincerely apologize for interrupting that's all the time we have one of them i guess in washington washington and in london i want to thank our viewers for watching as the iraqis see you next time remember. that all the people that are in the big point bubble talk about the other bubbles that the fed is inflated without recognizing that they're in a bubble themselves and it's like a bubble is generally in the eye of the beholder nobody can tell their own bubble as they've got all these people who are involved in the crypto bob or they can see at. the bottom to maximize their financial survival guide. putting their pension it down. this is what happens to pensions in britain.

watched as a report. some control for a middle class most of the night most of our very hard working people who want to get ahead that have either have some some health issues or have some of the others trick about luck a full time job won't always pay for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get you a victim to gunpoint if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. you better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted anyone that's homeless is history like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the case see how it is to be in the world's richest country.

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