hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle according to secretary of state blamed and china is the only country with the economic military and technological power to seriously challenge the stable and

open international system all of the rules values and relationships that make the world work the way we want it to is china really a threat to washington's global system. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest says coarsely in washington he's a senior fellow and director of the center of american sea power at hudson institute also in washington we have sort of ghouta he is asia pacific international relations specialist at the institute for china american studies and in london we crossed when he came she is a policy analyst and senior lecturer in chinese international political economy are across up and also the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it when it's going to set in washington i found lincoln's statements about china quite remarkable because basically what he said is that he

didn't say and complete words but basically the international system that the united states has built since the 2nd world war designed by the united states europe to buy the united states everyone must conform to it and china must. to and if it doesn't conform to it that's how they define the threat is that a fair thing to say said no that's not what lincoln said like what it ought to jim in the beginning my introduction would lincoln said was not international or exists right now. and which he has faith has been. a party to along with other democratic countries is under threat by china and weapon chinese call everything with chinese characteristics so that means that free trade freedom of navigation. certainly free enterprise

a non mercantilist system. one where there is something right both brotherly cooperation on trade and with there is not an acceptance of intellectual property itself whole scenario but then that's the kind of world $29.00 states seeks to preserve an increase not to enforce upon others which have been barely barely getting it. really gained and lincoln is saying is that china is challenging it well i mean it is a multi-ethnic polar world right now one party doesn't make the rules or should make the rules because then it will cause conflict when he let me go to you meaning it seems to me number one the world that the u.s. is the architecture that the u.s. has been in at the at the meeting since the 2nd world wars hugely benefited china china likes a lot of those rules ok so you know i i think also during that after the 2nd world

war all the way up to now the united states has never really had a peer so it has to start thinking about how the internet with international order is going to exist with the peer power go ahead wendy i'll only be with you china has vanished from the currents there with her or everything. in that in that respect this is not in china's interest to change it or to challenge i think the statement in his speech because i have read his speech it's very interesting to see . why is that it suggests that america is alone. saying that it's a towering nation basically trying to. fight against. that you know how could this obviously isn't true china is not able to challenge america who is here we know that or do we not only in this region not home we think that the fact that america has allies that have nato from when it comes to economics china has roots cordoning to the rules and we gain that has been sent out

here and it is still considered on an equal phone and there were a lot of demands in america on screen or at this time far demands that we were part of a developed upon the american really should be doing the assessing that step it's firm that's likely to be again i think it's also important for really to highlight that . while the speech really really emphasizes the fact that the end society and prioritizing american values interests the american people is that you are no no longer who we think that this is an international system that's. for the after school boards you this is no system that actually is very true at the phone. and so the game is very much tina. you know blink and you know also you know he talked about it and i'm glad when he brought it up because i stopped in my introduction how it benefited the american people absolutely right i was

a continuation of it when said china also has its national interests and has to look after its own people i mean why can't the chinese jhoom what went down in that washington must do tyrants on people china will do for example i mean it seems to me it's like our party and if you want to cook if you want to participate you have to do exactly what we say but the united states doesn't own the international or it's a member of the international red sox you know there are no diagram often show if somebody united stance is that china is a moral. yes playing by the rules of the game that the united states to lay down and china playing by those same rules is going to go basri a head of the united states in terms of material capabilities particularly economics so just think about it this way you know talking of decades hence if china gets to the level off productivity that south korea is to act today china

with china's economy will be 2 and a half times the size of the united states playing by the rules of the game that the united states laid out china will be wait ahead off the united states and this creates a fundamental die lemma of how to manage china and the problem has been that china does not want to change the setup because it works more or less pretty well for china but for the united states something needs to change in strategy and that's not yet figured out how to change that in strategy and so instead we have this doubling down in rhetoric that china's cheating china's doing this love love love love love trying to create a coalition against china but the fact of the matter is one needs to have a backup criteria one needs to have better accusations against china to be able to create that coalition against china and that's not looking at i think this is to some extent trust tradition and ceo at the u.s.

and and that should not be the case because china as as we just said is just still end up home including income economy and it is not a given that the chinese communist party will be there for her that's not been the case in taiwan that we have hardware in systems have come down it could could have been in china and we could have a much more tour and i set up at some point of time in the next couple of decades in a decade or 2 and that could completely change the conversation so the u.s. needs to stay true to its values and hopes of the rules of the system that it itself laid down and of course court others who. well the seat to the fire to sunday to do some of the same sets you want to reply to that go ahead well you are . wondering whether there are clashes on the border between china and india cost to rot here in studio international order but the other guests are saying the united states and now. it doesn't strike me as the

. to conquer border i'm not into the united states or any other democratic country or non-democratic want it what should the united states do if there was a conflict between india and china what should the united states didn't i don't think. that statesmen have the luxury of making plans based on what could or what might happen i think one has to look at what is actually happening and judged by that. china represents a threat to national the international order liberal and national order and what did i deduce that what one should try to do i mean he and he would mr plank and what should china do if just. agree to any kind of demands from washington i don't think that agreeing to demands from washington is threatening tyrone with force or are clashes with the with the indians are near or are on their normally less

interested if it's go to war with china no of course not ok ok winnie go ahead jump in i see what it says what you're suggesting is number line that you that america wants trying to achieve just saying here what your rights for i i receive he who are the injustices there are fans we will keep on board with this that he was out for i think that there is a bigger. this is hard to see that we were talking about the fact that you're aligned with the current situation in india the poor fashions the how. they've been having territories she was rejected it's funny i had clashes on and off for decades and they have is oh it's so nice for now regular people you know how they want to do the situation where his heart goes out. there in the passions out or potentially contradictory to him who would have been sure sure to call out what america is

doing you know to control the release and that i'm not saying i want to take it there but if you are going to for china or for america what so-called china to do with the insurer is that it's necessary for america to fully itself should we who is of international think we're safe as you say america is not a leader america is not trying to control everything it is just part of a whole chunk of the night it's not a question of holding trying to end the rules of the american order. it's a question of what sort of a warder exists in the world the united states is not in this part shall now the france that the threat to the international order is recognised not simply by the united states but by europe well is demonstrated by the fact that the british are sending a carrier strike the south china sea the french are sending a submarine the german hurst the germans you sending us your friendship is

a growing awareness of what china's aggressiveness and you envision well who ambitions mean not just the united states or for europe as well and i expect that will continue. sort of to in washington sort of that it is china a military threat we came in why are the british going all the way around the world to to the south china sea which is far as i know as the you know where china is the south china sea is called that for a reason here i mean it seems to me that we're seeing so much of a military response i mean is i would think that's a kind of the last thing you would want to be presenting well there's so many things you can diplomacy the you can have for that mean you know when this is all but all that doesn't know when to react military let's go to our other guest in washington mr good to go. you know that the sort of. the perfect find out if one talks globally expansionists in terms of china being doing this this globally

and then all the issues that we talk about a frankly right acted stirfry in which something many of which attests hurdy gurdy legitimate claims i mean if i come to the south china sea you think about they can go to china and get more disturbed actually china prior to what happened on the border at what sort of boundary resolution proposal with regard to a certain segment off the bottom 3 what do they need to the ians instead went and declared that kashmir was a union territory not the question and as a certain area which is also disputed by china because china does these things everybody jumps to the side when when when the other countries do it sorry if you have to jump in here we have to go to a heartbreaking f. about heartbreak the discussion around us china relations stay with our caps.

tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit i don't even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to you the person who falsely fast actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior once a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between. someone that is a. bring

. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered and peter is about to remind you we're talking about the u.s. china relationship. oh yes go back to mr google in washington d.c. we're talking about perceptions of chinese aggression go right ahead yeah exactly perceptions of chinese aggression you know let's let's be clear about it you know the chinese are plushy bit syria in terms of the way they handle many of these territorial aspects sources is an extension off diplomacy and politics but force within certain limits this is not force which is going to be used on the other side

of the world and phobia so that cetera et cetera it's a very limited use of force and those that don't use of force has done more for political reasons think about it in time from 979 to 2021 china has had little bit of all that's how should we see any movements on its territorial fronts you've had less than 150 casualties those last 40 years it's not to think about it with regard to the eagle wars if you go home any zeroes we have to add to that in terms of casualties but let me get to a larger point out with regard to china again china is very territoriality oriented and their fault china is not a military threat to the wooden floor seats but in terms within those forests i mentioned and the 2nd island chain in the western pacific china has very serious territorial claims and and strategic interests and in regard to those interests

include ensure that there is an anti access anti denial strategy. to prosecuting a conflict of contingency which might arise with an in these or. us but that also means that d. d. on these geographies best actually no basis whatsoever for china to be involved in a hot conflict and that includes cases like the south pacific all the string off corals in the e.u. notion there is no question of conflict military conflict happening out there but the best is obviously with taiwan it is especially and you can see that conflict is potentially possible there so again it's an it's a qualified i'd say tons of military it's not in the streets fact of the earth but it hasn't actually interests and there is a potential for a very serious sessions in zoos that during the odd man out so i'd like you to reply to what we just heard go ahead well but. you know this is. there's

a certain amount of speculation here which is understandable. but when the question is asked or when it's asserted that china is not a threat. that may or may not be true but i think that it's important to look at what kind of ships. chinese are building because ships are the way that the principal way for a country to project power china is working on is working on laying the keel for its 4th. aircraft carrier which will be a very large aircraft carrier and very modern one with the electromagnetic catapults and all the. tribute of a modern ship. you don't need 4 aircraft carriers for the south china sea you need aircraft carriers for one reason alone and that's to project out how used well that's a question for speculation because if people heard that the pacific is

a pretty big place and. but to say that china is not a threat or who are merely concerned with regional issues now is the ride by the fact of building amphibious ships which are meant to project power and building aircraft carriers need creasing numbers which are meant to be the same ok india sending 3 aircraft carriers already has and will have 3 aircraft carriers by 2030 i don't know anybody saying india is being expansionist and going to south america going to somebody so i mean we need to have a little bit of shared interests in this in the context of this to. mean that we got any air limits but when and if you know we just have we have the quad you know we have in the events being. being designed at least by some people in washington to be kind of in asia nato obviously to contain china and so i mean when you see this containment policy being encircled encouraging the quad to even to

militarily cooperate which i i find really problematic i i don't i just can't see how the australians are going to get involved with a i just beat this out koreans out with the we've with china and you think you know south korea is going to really come to the aid of japan and i doubt that too ok but i mean if. this containment is real ok we have ships you know going into the region here ok and obviously making it clear they see this is all i'm projecting power against china not for freedom of the seas but you know they're keeping their eye on one target and one target only go ahead when so the idea of the chinese containment is the jennet in $89.00 bills after. we still have the major come this hour with for her thank the rise of the chinese economy naturally means it's more concerned with the americans as to what we might mean for the region

where you have. which is a major ally who are americans foreign as well as their reality are concerned about whether my poor creative in consumer stevie need to think about when it comes to high the oh china has a military grade in this they ask it's easy for them so our events are how an idea china and the major military power in terms the onset for ups plane flown from were talking about with south reserve the fact that china's trying to develop it for a french carrier america has to be 3 so sense that we yes china its idea of china being a major military power and growing but it's in terms of challenging america is exactly the sense of power this is not exaggerated in terms that you can see the sense how china prioritizing its concerns and yes it sounds as if it's in the region it is fundamentally focusing on defense of power trying to ensure that nothing happens of

course it will other power once it's hearing within the should we close this out and see these fancy things that these city. that you have been trading routes in the malacca straits is one of the reasons why we have to go through initiative because china recognizes that night you chinese the team in is one to prioritize potential receipt with one of the treatments and therefore you need the hostler and there's a growing discussion of how the airwaves right for a constant arms exports america and nationally at least that is the world's leading events for orange 170 $5000000000.00 for 20 for china experience $9000000000.00 per year over the last decade not a challenge not in that sense though in the big picture yes china i can see why there are concerns but it's regional for the mentally regional interims are where china is trying to protect its interests whose didn't disappoint her territoriality

absolutely china has never wavered from day one about what its own heart. mr go go go go go back to i mean it seems to me you know it'll be in the rise of china the international scene has been actually spain calculator if you look at the course of history i mean unbelievable and if i can just really give a really broad picture here i mean this is the 1st time in 500 years that a non european power is becoming a peer when the only single superpower in the world this is what blinken is talking about i find it really insulting it's all couched in values and democracy considering all of the illegal wars that the united states participated in in this century alone ok and it's just because china is becoming a peer and nobody in washington understands how to deal with that because it's this whole exceptionalism nonsense starts short circuiting because there's someone else out there that is growing in power and there's really nothing they can do about it

and that's why they don't fall back on these barrel things that i you know i think are hypocritical if you look at american foreign policy and nato also go ahead mr. perfectly correct on that on that trying to you know the fact that we are going to have a non west our which is going to be sitting atop the mountain all summer and there abouts is of sacked that is very hard to digest because the one that we live in is written has been written by the judeo christian west frankly and it's not it's absolutely not easy to accept the fact that the chinese have been immense far in the process that coming back to that to that. to being that that sort of talk and that clinging to at a time when the rest of the water died he says suddenly he shipler is rising and doing very well so this is a rice i'm like japan but it happened at the expense of asia it's happening with

the asia and that that makes it that much more harder and that's why i mean even he knows try r.p.c. are pretty. questionable i do not take it for granted that he has just stuck in the quad let me expand in trenton 19 the. pacific forces come and never come on to say you know what you need to kind of quit on this floor business because it's not really going anywhere because that he needed an ample head of the indian naval command cordon like you know what we're really not too much keen about this business because the intention we're doing having a good relationship at that point of time and of course relations have gone down inside of the quite has gone up and it might just go the other way around but coming back to china i do the important takeaway from china is to do it in terms of its prices not so much to focus just on the military element you know that the chinese one from 2000 years of conflict that for free is that it does not work trying to squash your enemy because you will not be able to do that better to play

to that after a safe and greed and trying to find divisions within them and that is what china is going to do as a 50 trillion 70 trillion dollar economy it is going to find differences but then branches off the west as it did with branches off the mongols and best practice of i think the u.s. needs to be needs to get its game together and frankly as you're seeing out here the comprehensive agreement on investment if china's going to play by those rules advanced country rules and you know the subsidies they are betting to say hey let's give the already to shake hands and to then also what happens then in that case where you go in with that well i think they think that's very interesting i'm going to seth for the last question here i mean is it a neo liberalism what the u.s. did was financial eyes its economy you know just got the industrialization part of it and the chinese embrace the very different meal liberalism there that the factory of the world and they make all kinds of things we saw this you know these

production change during the that and the ongoing crisis here i mean the ad they've been braced neoliberalism in come out on the winning site when the middle class in america came out on the losing side of the same ideology go ahead sir. well. of course the. contest between nations. is not it certainly should not be considered in terms of military balance war economics but rather the combination of the. claims. made a moment ago by. winnie about the defense of character. china's regional see. by their treatment of the show he knowns be and can easily get to me the japanese but there are threats to use force to take taiwan most are not the best sorry i have to jump in here but that of times i'm sincerely apologize for interrupting that's all the time we have one of them i

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