welcome to worlds apart given to roughly a year since comet 19 irish the riding roughshod over a polar aspects of our lives with its spikes creaking and acting everything we used to take effect rapids but is that since millie but shirley and naval are released from long downs the question is of what is the needle post pandemic normal going to be one of the boundaries of personal social and international responsibility on the matters of how well to discuss that i'm now joined by look at me a professor of biochemistry at trinity college dublin professor neal it's great to talk to you thank you very much for your time now are you happy to be here now i know that your i be back seem enthusiastic you've been arguing that government should be banging down doris to get access to proven vaccines are regarded most of their source regardless of political considerations do you think though that the vaccination campaign the global vaccination campaign the way it has been playing

out so far is really free from politics no certainly not i mean it's a bit of a shame and somewhat 'd is because science has delivered these vaccines are not real scientists we did our job you know well i wasn't directly involved in it but i know lots of the scientists who were and they did a tremendous job out there we've got we've got probably 11 highly efficacious and safe vaccine is available you know in the mission now is vaccinate the whole world as quickly as we can and you say 'd wasn't with most things in life humans get involved you see and then we see the various issues there are well let's take the research and the controversy surrounding the astra zeneca baxley which much of europe including your own nature of our land the use of which was the standard in much of europe gz you clotting issue which share according attitude of well how hard it is ation is not stand by day get out i don't think there is any reason to suspect that the german. no if they enjoy the irish share how bitter it is would be

if. more negligent or more ignorant about a science than w.h.o. colleagues how then do you owe explain the the decision to hold the the japs well again it's complicated i guess you know maybe e.m.e.a. remember the european medicines agency they are on record as saying the risk for blood clotting is extremely low and in no way should stop people using this vaccine w.h.o. is of the same thing now the international society for thrombosis the mistakes of the world governing body said keep using the vaccine so there's massive consensus among the experts the should keep even the back to back saying while they examine the data remember it's very important because events have been reported and the process is the e m a now looks at the data and the sides of the see hear what we suspect they'll say no this is i mean carry on this is a bit unfortunate i think the country's decided to to pause and vaccine and the big question is why what was that human thing wasn't it got reaction it's very hard to

know you know well as president to stand a european medical professionals in specific european countries rather than. their last concerned about the number of those blood clotting cases species indeed low but i think they're mostly concerned about unusual minister stations for example i think there are some issues with cerebral vein them both this in germany their regions also have i mean you show medical picture is that enough to raise a plaque as far as your concern and that's enough to report it for definite because with any vaccine you have what's called pharmacovigilance which means once the vaccine being used widely if any doctor see something unusual that of lights are reported to the company that makes the vaccine 1st and 4th and then the e m a or the the countries regulate everybody and then they they these people look at this and look at the evidence you see. the issue here is extremely rare so we know

the vaccine has been in 20000000 people we know probably 5060 cases of proffering that's a tiny tiny tiny number we know this virus will kill you know a 1000 people or the 1000000 for instance in the forty's and there and in the 40 years age group for example and other words it's sort of a strange view that say the high risk paying you know from getting infected and having severe consequences worse is a very low risk of flooding they rise to a fault in the next thing i think i start to because it's all brand new and the regular people worry you know and governments worry because we get a geisha in the background that's right about my part of it sort of complicated things. well it's a strange view to take but it's been taken by credit to you governments including the government of ireland and i and couldn't understand why for example the german how whether it is who takes i just never why would your native arlen. close it because i mean graphically demographically economically are much closer here the

united kingdom and there the british tourists than be imbibing mixi why do you think dublin decided to you know early say that cyril hurley's concerns rather than london's arguments i mean garland pause that i had in germany actually probably if there were a terrible at yeah i guess hard to understand i mean i think it's only cautious about you know now there are concerns here at the moment he wants to take a vaccine and have a stroke you know i mean that's obviously it's a bad thing to happen but the science wasn't being followed is the issue here because obviously the numbers with her astra zeneca itself said there are maybe $37.00 cases that it's $20000000.00 can you believe it may said there were 50 cases out of $5000000.00 american so and yet the governments decide to follow each other with an awful sheep mentality perhaps you know i don't know who was to be blamed if the wall something serious so i mean it's unfortunate i'm hoping within a matter of minutes we have a press release so he sank please so are using the vaccine again and then this goes away as a problem so what it is it's

a strange one to talk to us now. you mentioned that they're one of the reasons may be here officials being overly cautious and officials in most countries like to say that it's better to be saved than story and i thing in the past really a situation like this it's a it's very hard to say which is we each i mean normally we would have to wait a couple of years for science to render its verdict but in the absence of that time how would you go about potentially deciding what is again potentially a safe situation or a story situation or the north of the science that's all science is our key informant of. activity here you see a look at those numbers the numbers i gave you are probably correct we're pretty confident about the very low risk of coagulation a plan you say and while very common about the death rate and severe disease rates look at those numbers and then comes your inclusion based on science what else can you base that on i got a feeling you know an anxiety fear of being sued by someone who gets harmed you

can't base this agency else on that you see so it's a strange one we're trying to encourage governments to follow science follow the science and the a.m.a.'s problems and so i don't know if you know and they've said keep using this vaccine when we look at these cases and then when the am i may well say there is a risk you say and then let's see what i say next you know well as you suggested be an e-mail address controlling the signs but. if we look at the end of accidents and it has improved several. they haven't a clue they have a russian or a chinese specs and despite the fact that they scientifically have a pretty strong efficacy do you think this slow process of certification of the boring vaccines has anything to do with politics it might mean there's more to approving a box in a published date that they got on visit a factory that makes if they're going to sign off on the production process you know and that would be in china or russia or anywhere maybe they haven't done not

even a doing about how the guy was a machine without one you got to take several boxes remember before a vaccine is approved and includes production but i think as most of pressure from our on the a.m.a.'s or prove those facts because they are very are african and they are in millions of people now and they're showing great safety profiles as well so i suspect they will catch up with mentioning that from those like now as i met him you know ledges do you think based european approach is a good idea how quest i mean could and should one try it's use sensually regulate. this vaccination campaign over such a huge territorial rights. such a large population of people with very different demographic you know metabolic economic and other profiles is it such a good idea to do that well that's why the health of the national carrier for the able to member each country has a solid national agency for safety for example the m.h.r. in the u.k. be one example anonymous i call

a figure for the national competency health for that very reason because the regional differences use them up brussels then tries to coordinate european activities to the e m a for example and remember all the machinations sees in the m a as well you know it's populated by each country's representatives the a many of the overarching are only but there that will make a recommendation and then the local authorities also agree with us i suppose given the local situation you can see why i mean if astra zeneca is a good example in a sense they've they've ignored the m a falling stop in the for whatever the reason is so it's a bit difficult to do with all the port notice because because obviously there are complexities now i'm sure you've heard this is iowa geishas i've seen those articles in the western press that 2nd countries including russia perhaps china trying to here. will use the vaccine difficult just to perhaps. saw discord among the european countries or wait staff on the vaccine

war or that the diplomacy and tries to take advantage of the of the difficulties that the european continent is experiencing what do you make of that well luckily i mean i mean all of this. but 25 to go i don't know i mean overall i would say this that these are great facts names including sport nick the the chinese vikings are really affected and the mission has to be to get that through many places as possible because the goal here is to save humanity remember on earth we want to vaccinate 7000000000 people now because humans politics will come into it i suppose but it's always regrettable if politics comes into health let's say. well you know it's i'm i'm more optimistic and i know for a fact that i know you know the sputnik me is being used in 20 countries at the moment i think it is so much of it's counseling oxys been used widely let's hope i continue to sorry neal we have to take a very short break right now but it will be back in just a few moments stakes here. is

you'll be a reflection of reality. in the world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation whole community. are you going the right way or are you being led. to. what is true what is faith.

in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or inmate in the shallowness. welcome back to worlds apart with leukemia a professor of biochemistry at tree college. professor neal of before the break me . talking about the chair playing. politics and public health and just the other day the u.s. department of how he laid services has published its annual report for 2020 which on page 48 it boasts about having used its diplomatic muscle to persuade brazil to reject the russian call that 1000 back to beach it describes as. live

in flannels detrimental to u.s. safety and security now i know i'm getting you into political commentary fair but since you've been such an advocate of 5 vaccinating the world deep think that goal of providing a vaccine c.-o. all countries around the world isn't charitable 'd if one country describes the vaccine to prove it absent of another country as as i'm alive influence and a threat to its own security it doesn't help but let's let's move this where you want to look at the data in other words they have a small nick b. day has been published we've seen the africa sea we've seen you know good data from that vaccine we've some some data from the chinese vaccine like any other vaccine if the data holds up you can't call them a line you know what's the basis for that's they to give me the scientific i would say to those people you need a scientific basis or to say you know well it's not scientific they see this as say

that it takes away or chips away from the u.s. humanitarian leadership around the world you know in other countries supplying exactly and 0 a 3rd country if there is didn't if there's a violation well i yeah i don't i and as i say i think the most important thing of all is this that if about scenes are given the thumbs up from a scientific or medical point of view we shouldn't be interfering with the process if it's all possible and remember the reason why as a global problem is very simple these new variants will crop up in places where the vaccine you want to riot and they will come in infect you you know your country where whoever back on to get you know there's a massive need to vaccinate. as many countries as quickly as they say your own countries as well you see so so nationalism won't help in this global demick with us there's always the risk of a virus coming back on with different com and hence the i'm a huge fan of how by the organizing engine because they've been a fantastic job getting the vaccine into conference where it's most needed you know and i've held up if there's reason to suffer that will come back and bite you later

you know so you politicians need a long term vision as well as a short term professor neal this argument that you just laid out has been around for pretty much every whole year that you know a country well advanced country should be housing their neighbors to get access to vaccine because we all in this together but i think we have seen a lot of instances of pretty south ossetia behavior on the part of more developed nation just say a radically thinking about perhaps the next they're going to how do you think those things should be organized you said that you are being promised callback mechanism but a smaller working as intended as ya. well the it's very challenging for them remember you know they are doing their best their money cerezo a huge amount of money so all the cars many cars in europe donated farms a vaccine manufacturers j.n.j. asses that are giving them back seen you know what is a process might mean we never got rid of that area did we you know we never really

got rid of a child of your t.v. in africa these are devastating diseases so that all of that was going to change overnight my hope is that cope with mind seeing will actually make these old diseases more tractable now you know as well as we move forward through the success of the i'll probably mine too many many which are vices many issues i'm sure you know and then you'd like you'd like to see more coordination with the u.n. or i'm not going to so far my favorite by a long way but i'd like to see more effort there to coordinate the efforts and all the behind this all. now apart from your political rivalries the combat 19th indomie has intensified. domestic debate. about our own responsibility starts out on how and the how from other research how much we are responsible for our you know our house outcomes whether that boundary allies how comfortable are you with this new emerging affleck's on that masks vaccines and everything else well again i mean

this debate goes back and forth a huge amount we saw it in in the us you know where there are democrats want mosques and republicans didn't this is not an issue to do with optics this is simply a human health and she said so and then obviously people feel their civil liberties are being challenged by being told to wear a mask i mean you've got to be careful with make an exam you know illegal about it not use the you've got to try to bring people along with you by laying out the evidence you know and then hopefully convince them that this is a sensible thing to do you can we do much more than if you get very draconian it can backfire on you it's a complicated thing this topic i'm going to humans to behave in a certain way you see and go along with things and if you're reasonable you would say the date is ready what i'm asking i think i will ram once it's all we can hope . well you know what bugs me the most different about this whole controversy is the average expanding notion of moral hazard and how sick people or asymptomatic carrier is huge as a rat to people with preexisting oh i would rather say pretty crier that conditions

and i don't have a problem with wearing a mask it's a it's not a big deal but what about vaccinations would you go as far as making them mandatory no i never do that because that all of us are as historically you say it's going to be a personal choice thing and all that new with appeal to people's better nature and say look you may not be at risk from this disease because you're not in a high risk group but if you took the punk scene you want to help with a limb and i think this virus from our countries and the economy now comes back to everybody's been in other words you talk appeal to people's sense of right and wrong and that's and i hope for the best but no to make to make vaccines that mandatory as it is a kind of a modern human rights one level you know and as i say if you see by our. we know now for a fact that lifestyles especially resulting in insulin resistance and chronic inflammation. it's

a major factor in developing call that 19 complications which make treatment longer and so much more expensive and i wonder if. if you would support any and i don't know many dated guidance on how people should leave their lives you know it's you minimize our mutual inconveniences and cost and by god i mean what people should eat how they should actually size how they should care for their bodies so that when the next time they run into a major pandemic it doesn't he has as far as they find it as well no again you just provide advice as best she can i mean if we were to follow that line array's knew we found out how we ban smoking we ban everything to protect people as well you know you end up in a very difficult place then i think about human nature to be honest now you know was very even how they respond to things you see so now if you're

a doctor who ever comes into your going you treat them you don't say i won't treat you because you didn't follow the guidelines on the low 5 diet for example that pop up a document some it's all it's just a treat people especially come at me and then many other stop or ways of doing that i think that's how it stacks rise or snaps you know use of something that would encourage people to you know be more disciplined about what they have i mean it actually leads me to that russian that occurred to me when i was reading your book human knowledge in which you. are right that the need comes from delighted word immunise which means exemption am i sort of wondering if this believe in vaccines belief in nablus and as something that would save you oh actually you know exam some people from being more disciplined and the more for tactical last wasteful with our own town. back can be true yeah exactly so people take more risks i suppose they want to do it in their lives on its own you know but back back it's a bit difficult as well i mean ultimately all you can do with these kinds of things

is laid out the evidence as i say for people and so if you take exercise choice that week you will decrease your risk of getting counsellor now i wish we all could do that you know if you've got to cut is that when you know what to and then as you say the other side is you have to put a use tax on cigarettes for example because you can't stop people smoking maybe they're more worried about their bank account than their health for example has ways to do these things without making it legal or forcing the. how comfortable have you been where the. web based service collect show damage stat. down measures have to guess because the government's advice did is they remain staying inside. that has its own consequences for people is how i mean if you stay inside to your most immobile you're trying to eat more you time so you watch towie more you tend to last do you think that at the end of the day that price such

a good a.t.m. a lockdown is a hopeless solution remember it's the worst case scenario front because it's so difficult for people on the things you mention mental health issues all the rest of it but the fact is this was an emergency and the only way to contain it was through lockdown the main reason being people spread out symptoms you know like with sars and mers that was easier because you'd symptoms and you spread it so you could get people with sars put them into hospital and isolate them with this one he will walk around for 3 or 4 days with no symptoms and infect someone a man and then the vulnerable person is that much so anyway with the do a lot you know you've got to remember though every decision if you got them out there has a consequence and then go home with the bonds that i'm going to figure out a way to minimize the harmful effect of law you know as well as promoting healthy stop of the virus from spreading but it's a really difficult question that's why again science was the only way out of this because then eventually we can open up again because a vaccination you see and that's where the fascination campaign becomes so important that that means you got a much better solution and locking people down you know with this is always in our

minds the risk of any anything like a lockdown will have on our population must be secondary and. the rational of the low down and was premised bad transmissions. occur very easily that it's a highly contagious virus but i think it's a little bit more complicated than that i know a couple of families and which one family member it's died of carbon while they are there sam. only members who leave the same household didn't get in fact that despite having acros contact with that individual such it seems to me that means that the transmission aspirant being mean here do we understand at this point day besides a transmission how these virus gets into one person's body and why das and that be out there at the same time the so are many variables as we call them in immunology remember everybody's immune system is there from let's start with that just like your face is different to mine even though about almost sapience miami and system

is very different to yours you know so so if i make a very public expose of the virus just through don't look my me in system and find it better than you and i you get it is easy you know that's what one variable the 2nd is that though so far as i'm happy i'm lucky in other words i might be exposed one friday afternoon to a massive dose of virus you're not in the house that day so you don't get exposed to the same dose you see you make doses very important certainly even outside genetics if you did get a good night's sleep the night before and i didn't see your immune system be slightly better than mine and maybe at that moment then you fight the infections of the so many variables here it's very hard to pin it down we get off a lot of it the immune system on how reacts and a lot of the virus so we can come up with these kinds of data i pop a hypothetical reason the why was he was very asian. well clearly there are differences among the countries but what i'm hearing from the russian doctors is that while during this very wave of the pandemic most of the casualties for the out really. now they're dealing mostly with middle aged man who'll tonfa

survive their desires but require a lot more support a lot more and medical assistance do we have is it the case. there was and do we understand why men tend to be more vulnerable than women to be there with a good idea for the male female their friends for definite about the work that affirm that it was known before men and women respond if we have to try to save our lives for example men do worse with hepatitis c. so coming down the main i mean system is different to the females in various ways the big question is why a surgeon is a big factor that hormone actually benefits the immune system and women those women haven't men don't that's one reason and then we know that because when women go through the menopause their risk becomes like man you know because he she didn't fall that's one reasonable explanation the 2nd thing we know is the x. chromosome women have 2 copies mentally of long some immune genes around that from

the double dose of the immune genes you know they've got double the number of troops to fight the virus that's the 2nd reason because women pay the price for this by having more autonomy into the well known thing as well but immune systems are slightly more active and even that might defend them against a virus like oh but one thing that might make them of a higher risk of lupus are arthritis it's more common in women so we don't care a bit about out there now why was the virus affecting younger people more and more we don't you know one offshoot of these are these variants is that a change in the volume and it's better able to affect so people in their forty's as opposed to older people that's a bit of a mystery although it is they could also be maybe those people are taking more chances and getting a higher exposure you know probably behavior as well for this if you will not all that we know older people who wrote badly though that's what on the slope now as you get older like other parts of our bodies your immune system gets less affected . the virus is now able to get a foothold more and spread more you know and in fact the inflammatory process is

stronger in the older people than younger people so they control them out as well and then you get the disease that if we've got it we've got to come to something i've looked into a. professor i know i know that you've been fascinated by the size of a human body or how's your career raising a couple of books on that has this virus changed any space fundamentally in a way you think about the way the human body is constructed by and i would say this virus the fact that you've got this strange hybrid of to try to get this virus one of they can live in your nose and then you know symptoms on your property help the ortho's into your lungs and make your really sick but it's a simple as that many minds that tells us something about human biology that we don't fully understand you know why without the is it because the immune system never gets here knows is it because the virus like your lungs much more some other reason so we're kind of learning what we're learning more and more about is how

viruses interact with our body and this virus is revealing new aspects of the whole thing with ricin in the middle of trying to understand some viruses are always a fascination because they're the most cunning little scraps of or and i you know so we're learning more and more about biology in immunology from the science. well i hope you will. consider some of those issues to be in your new book going to graduation some degree response and thank you very much for spending some time of this great option where you have plenty of i want to thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on worlds apart. from.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

italy and germany consider breaking ranks with the e.u. and using russia's sputnik vaccine even if the european regulator doesn't give it the green light. joe biden hints that the rise in hate crime against asians in america was stirred up by his predecessor much of the media piling the blame on donald trump. and thousands of israelis take to the streets calling on the prime minister to resign ahead of the country's 4th election and just to. close your world news headlines for this hour on behalf of the international team thank you very much for watching and we hope to see you again soon.